Is it woroth the extra $1000 for the Epson 8500UB over the 8100? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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It seems like the advantages of the 8500 over the 8100 are:

- "better" blacks
- higher contrast
- scaling processor (which I know nothing about)
- video "smoothing" option which I am not into

Advantages of the 8100 over the 8500 seem to be:

- higher lumen output (would work better with ambient light...big plus for me)
- $1000 less

I am replacing a Mitsubishi HC1500 that was in my family room

Thanks!

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post #2 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

It seems like the advantages of the 8500 over the 8100 are:

- "better" blacks
- higher contrast
- scaling processor (which I know nothing about)
- video "smoothing" option which I am not into

Advantages of the 8100 over the 8500 seem to be:

- higher lumen output (would work better with ambient light...big plus for me)
- $1000 less

I am replacing a Mitsubishi HC1500 that was in my family room

Thanks!

Never put yourself in financial straits for any new toys!

Keep climbing the equipment ladder, the exercise will help you live longer because you'll never reach the top
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post #3 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 07:59 PM
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Wondering myself the same thing. Best thing is to see at the same time the two units.

I think it all depends of how much you are willing to spend. I think but i'm not an expert.
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post #4 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 09:16 PM
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Hi,

I was in the same situation as you a week ago and this is how I made my choice.

I was going to watch most likely 95% Bluray so everything related to video scaling.. no good for me and I can always use a really very good external video scaler.

For the 120hz (smooth video) I can't support and I hate changing the original image. even my girlfriend who's not a very video tech can't support the soap tv show effect. so a BIG no for me. 24P video was enough for me.

the 1000$ less was a big plus for me because I need to buy an audio system, Screen and repaint the room etc..

Image Quality.. well in general there's not a big difference between both projector.. expect for the black.. but I can watch blueray on my 4 year LCD TV with 10000:1 contrast and I still really enjoy the image so I think I can leave with 36000:1 I'm not too picky for black.. as long as it black enough to be black I'm fine.. so again a personal opinion

I ended up buying the 8100 and I'm still waiting for it should arrive tomorrow.. after I will post screenshot and tweak the image like most people do.

Good shopping !.. The screen is harder to shop than the projector.. I'm still on it..
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post #5 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 09:21 PM - Thread Starter
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My main concern is how well the PJ will perform in my family room which has substantial ambient light during the day. FYI:

- my screen is 80" diagonal
- my throw distance is 9.5'

The FL measurements for that size and throw for the 8100 is 32 FL and the 8500UB is 29 FL. My Mistubishi was rated at 40 FL (which seems ridiculous but it was bright!)

We do about 1/3 of our viewing during the daytime. However, with that 2/3 of the viewing time at night, would be nice to have the black level range and THX mode of the 8500UB....

$1000 is a substantial amount of money in my case so I am torn!

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post #6 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

My main concern is how well the PJ will perform in my family room which has substantial ambient light during the day. FYI:

- my screen is 80" diagonal
- my throw distance is 9.5'

The FL measurements for that size and throw for the 8100 is 32 FL and the 8500UB is 29 FL. My Mistubishi was rated at 40 FL (which seems ridiculous but it was bright!)

We do about 1/3 of our viewing during the daytime. However, with that 2/3 of the viewing time at night, would be nice to have the black level range and THX mode of the 8500UB....

$1000 is a substantial amount of money in my case so I am torn!

For your situation..why would you be looking at projectors not as bright as what you already have? Spending more to use it less? Neither one is considered a real light cannon like your current unit.
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post #7 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Good question, I guess I like the Epson's warranty and solid rep. I also was not sure if the FL difference b/t the Mitsubish HC1500 and Epson was really comparable with the differences in resolution and contrast. Anyone with either Epson in a similar situation?

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post #8 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 10:07 PM
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What are you using to get your calculations in the above post?
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post #9 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I am using Projector Central's Pro Calculator.

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post #10 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Can't find any light cannons...would have to mount the Epson 8100 about 1.5' closer to my screen to get the 42 FL measurement. Howver there are also "best" and "Brightest" modes on projectors offering brighter outputs making it difficult to discern brightness between projectors. After some reading it would seem the Mitsubishi HC3800 would be brightest in the "best" mode...however I do not know what the FL measurement is while in its "best" mode.. head starting to spin...!

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post #11 of 36 Old 07-05-2010, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

Can't find any light cannons...would have to mount the Epson 8100 about 1.5' closer to my screen to get the 42 FL measurement. Howver there are also "best" and "Brightest" modes on projectors offering brighter outputs making it difficult to discern brightness between projectors. After some reading it would seem the Mitsubishi HC3800 would be brightest in the "best" mode...however I do not know what the FL measurement is while in its "best" mode.. head starting to spin...!

I used the carlton projector calculator and it gave me 55 FL with you using the Mits 3800 if it were outputting 950 lumen's.That was at a minimum of 12.5 ft from the screen(1.1 gain). maximum output is stated at 1142 lumen's equals 66.1 FL.
None of this is an exact science...your Mits 1500 is around 1600 lumen's in brightest mode if I'm not mistaken.

I went back in and input the Benq W1000 in its brightest best mode and got 69.5 FL..I then entered its brightest mode and came up with 126.2 FL.
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post #12 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Great info thanks! Where can I download the carlton projector calculator?? Better yet anyway you can give me the FL's for the Epson 8100, 8500 and m old Mits 1500 in their resepctive " best" and "Brightest" viewing modes? I have an 80" diag Screen Research ClearPix2 screen and the projecotrs would be mounted 9.5' back from it.

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post #13 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

Great info thanks! Where can I download the carlton projector calculator?? Better yet anyway you can give me the FL's for the Epson 8100, 8500 and m old Mits 1500 in their resepctive " best" and "Brightest" viewing modes? I have an 80" diag Screen Research ClearPix2 screen and the projecotrs would be mounted 9.5' back from it.


The calculator won't let me change the throw distance. It goes by the screen dimensions.

At the same throw distances as the others the 8100 is 26.7 Fl in best mode. At brightest mode it comes in at 74.6 FL.

The 8500 is 28.8 FL in best mode and 75.8 FL in brightest mode at the same distance as the others.

Safe to say the FL will increase on them all with you moving the projectors up 3 feet from 12.5 Ft.

Unless you go with the likes of the Vivitek or BenQ..there's nothing 1080P out there that can match your Mits in lumen's output with in the price range.

The Mits 1500 in Best mode high lamp comes in at 70.5 FL in brightest mode a whopping 105.6 FL!
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post #14 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 01:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Fantastic info and very prompt. Thanks! Are you referring to the BenQ W6000 and which Vivitek? Yes, trying to come in under $2000...seems like the 8100/8500 offer the brightest picture in that price range....with the Mits HC3800 close behind and Panny 4000 quite a bit behind.

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post #15 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

Fantastic info and very prompt. Thanks! Are you referring to the BenQ W6000 and which Vivitek? Yes, trying to come in under $2000...seems like the 8100/8500 offer the brightest picture in that price range....with the Mits HC3800 close behind and Panny 4000 quite a bit behind.

Actually here's the break down on brightest 1080P under $3000.

1) BenQ W1000
2) Vivitek H1080FD
3) BenQ W6000
4) LG CF181D
5)Epson Home Cinema 8500UB
6)Epson Home Cinema 8100
7)Sanyo PLV-Z700
8)Sanyo PLV-Z3000
9)Mitsubishi HC3800 (in best mode brightness it ranks near the top)
17) Panasonic (there are several not listed in between it and the Mits 3800)
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post #16 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 05:35 AM
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I use my 3800 for daytime use alot with ambient light and while obviously not as good as batcave viewing it holds up well.
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post #17 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 05:42 AM
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If you are trying to get the brightest picture, you need a High Power / High Gain screen. This is a great screen even if you don't need the extra brightness, but it will do a lot more for reducing ambient light effects then just upgrading your projector. You can get a 92" one for around $300, or a 106" for about $400.

BTW, the hc3800 is the best picture quality wise dollar-for-dollar by far (and it comes with an extra free lamp), so the real cost is about $1,000, but DLP's with high offsets cannot properly be paired with a High Power screen.

Therefore, out of those choices, my recommendation would be the Epson 8100 or 8500ub paired with a High Power screen. You're going to get a way better image with ambient light if you change your screen. Keep in mind that the Epson 8500ub commonly has issues but the Customer service is easy to deal with to get a replacement, but that said you may have to return it a couple times to Epson until you get a perfect unit.

The 8500ub is worth the extra money if you have the extra $1000 to waste. If you want to save some money, wait until next year's models come out in about 4-6 months and you can often get the previous generation a few hundred cheaper (sometimes even less).


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post #18 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 06:53 AM
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I want to say something very CRUCIAL here, in your setup the 8500ub is PROBABLY not worth the extra $1000, because of the ambient light. The 8500ub has higher contrast but with ambient light this is going to be washed out some, but especially the darker blacks.

BTW, with the high power screen, it will easily double your brightness on any projector and by using the Epson 8100 with a high power, it should look as bright as a TV if you do it right, you will have no problems with ambient light.


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post #19 of 36 Old 07-06-2010, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Coderguy. I definitely get the screen gain issue but am locked into my Screen Research due to its acoustic transparency as well as the amount I invested in it. My HC1500 was fairly washed out during the day on high lamp mode with Dynamic picture engaged. I had to blow out the contrast and brightness to make it viewable....looked horrible but good enough for the 30% of viewing we do during these hours...after 7pm it is ON! I assume unless I get some crazy high gain light rejecting screen (am looking at a few but too $$ right now) no projector would look great in my family room during the day. Pulled the trigger on the 8500UB and we shall see how it goes! Thanks for your input....prior to any further projector purchases I will be looking at a new screen.

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post #20 of 36 Old 07-07-2010, 04:32 PM
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When you get hte 8500ub, first thing to do is check the convergence and sharpness. Let us know how good the convergence is, I'm curious as it's a crapshoot.


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post #21 of 36 Old 07-07-2010, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I just plugged it in, defaulted to THX color mode and have not tweaked

Regarding the convergence you could see it was way off at first but now seems to be minimal. With the test pattern up you can see a slight red glow underneath the straight white pattern lines.

Regarding shaprness I do not know how to judge.

I do see the (wavy) red lines that others have complained of am assume that will diminish as well. Hope it is not disagreeing with my Screen Research woven screen.

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post #22 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 03:37 AM
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It sounds like you have a bad unit and need to RMA it. Without seeing it I cannot be sure.

Check this guy's post and compare your patterns to his:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post18848719

The first image he posted on the left had good convergenece, but some of the other images shows that on one of his Epsons he had it was relatively bad convergence.

You should only be able to see about half a pixel to a full pixel of color shading around text or so if you have a unit with really good convergence. On 1080p projectors, it's harder to see the pixels individually, but there are other test patterns you can use as well.

Walk right up to the test pattern as if you are almost about to kiss the screen and see if you can tell about how many pixels the red glow takes up. Also check for green or other glows around other parts of the test pattern. After that, throw up some different color text and make sure there is no color fringing of colors. Sometimes there can be other colors of fringing around colored text and people forget to check this since they are just looking for color around white text.

Anyways, I wouldn't fret over it if you didn't get a good unit on the first try, most people don't.


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post #23 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberlin1 View Post

I just plugged it in, defaulted to THX color mode and have not tweaked

Regarding the convergence you could see it was way off at first but now seems to be minimal. With the test pattern up you can see a slight red glow underneath the straight white pattern lines.

Regarding shaprness I do not know how to judge.

I do see the (wavy) red lines that others have complained of am assume that will diminish as well. Hope it is not disagreeing with my Screen Research woven screen.

Easy.. does it look slightly fuzzy or soft? If it is acceptable too you..go with the flow.

Yup..I figured you did your research on these units. There are people that have returned 6 or 7 of these units before getting a good one.
Just that is utter ridiculous in itself!


The quality control ranks right up there with the Mits 3800..both unacceptable too me!

Hope it all works out for you..just break out the shipping tape and box knife.
It will be over soon.
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post #24 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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THanks guys. Can't get the thing to display anything at the moment! I will get back regarding the convergence.

Also here is the wavy red line issue (from pics I took last night) I am suffering from. Was not sure if maybe the projector was just not compatible with my Screen Research Clear Pix2 woven fabric. This happens with any viewing source over HDMI and with any HDMI cable. It does not go away with power cycling:



more (screen shot from True Blood)


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post #25 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 11:25 AM
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Your screen material has nothing to do with that. I would call Epson today and get some use out of that customer service... you're going to need it my friend.

Why fuss with it? Get them to send you another.
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post #26 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

The quality control ranks right up there with the Mits 3800..both unacceptable too me!

The hc3800 has fixed the shutdown issue and a good deal of people get a good unit on the first try, being that is a DLP convergence is not usually the problem. The Epson quality control is far worse than the hc3800, even though the hc3800 has its issues, but only a couple people ever RMA'd more than once compared to the Epson which people average 2-3 RMA's.


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post #27 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Your screen material has nothing to do with that. I would call Epson today and get some use out of that customer service... you're going to need it my friend.

Why fuss with it? Get them to send you another.

Good to hear that the screen is not the issue. Calling customer service now. Will update the thread with my results!

Quote:
The hc3800 has fixed the shutdown issue and a good deal of people get a good unit on the first try, being that is a DLP convergence is not usually the problem. The Epson quality control is far worse than the hc3800, even though the hc3800 has its issues, but only a couple people ever RMA'd more than once compared to the Epson which people average 2-3 RMA's.

sounds like all PJ's (at least the 3k and under crowd) have their respective issues. I had a Mistubishi HC1500U for 3 years and loved the PQ. Had to have the color wheel replaced 3 times and had some dust blob issues. Got rid of it and upgraded to the 8500UB hoping to avoid such hassles! Cannot afford to drop 3k +on a PJ right now.

UPDATE: talked with APS @ EPSON and they are sending me a replacement unit. They have this "wavy red line" issue logged into their database as having occurred before in other cases. The new units have supposedly been repaired of this problem. We shall see. I guess I also need to be concerned about the other semi-inherent issues with this PJ...convergence, auto iris noise, fan noise, loose lens shift rings and focus issues! My current projector does not seem to be suffering from any of those issues.

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post #28 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 02:58 PM
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Look at it this way, once you get a good unit, you should have the best overall PQ for under 4K for any LCD projector, at least as far as I can find. You'll have to fire it up and watch some space scenes, that is where the EPSON really kicks butt.

The convergence is the main issue with the Epsons, although other issues can occur - they are not as common.

I think to beat the Epson PQ you'd have to move up to the JVC RS-10, but even that is questionable on if it really beats it overall. I've seen a JVC RS20, and yah it's amazing at dark scenes, but it still lacks sharpness and a tiny bit of POP compared to DLP, so it's not the best thing in the world like some people think.


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post #29 of 36 Old 07-08-2010, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Sounds good! How can I verify how good my convergence is? I went right up to the screen and you can see that it is not perfect but how can I tell how many pixels it is off?

Outside of the wavy red lines I am happy with the Epson 8500UB. First impressions:

- I can watch it during the daytime hours in my family room with all the shades open and sun blaring in without any viewability problems (of course dark scenes do suffer a bit). The 8500 is WAY brighter than my Mits HC1500 ever was in its brightest setting and does not blow out the whites to death to get that bright. I am using the LIVING ROOM color mode for daytime viewing with very few tweaks to the default settings (I upped Super Resolution).

- For night time viewing I have the color mode set to THX and am currently using Another Dad's settings and am happy so far. It really does pop at night.

- Been tinkering with the Frame Interpolation for viewing television programming (no movies) and am enjoying it set to the "Low" setting. I have never had FI (or 120, 240 or 600 Mhz TV's) so it takes some getting used to. Not sure if 4:4 would benefit any television programming (I know Anthony Bourdain's stuff is shot at 1080P/24fps but do not think it is broadcast as such)

- For watching film I am not fond of the frame interpolation and have it off. Also not quite sure if I like 4:4 enabled or not. I used the cable DVR and PS3 for watching films and not sure when 4:4 would be beneficial or not. I do have the PS3's 1080p/24FPS enabled but not sure how enabling 4:4 compliments that.

- Just programmed the Epson remote commands into my NEVO remote system and it is working like a charm....starts up and shuts down way faster than the Mits HC1500

- Fan is a tad quieter than my Mitsubishi in both ECO and NORMAL lamp modes.

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post #30 of 36 Old 07-09-2010, 09:48 AM
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Isn't there a PATTERN button on the Epson remote or something like that?

There are better test patterns on test discs, such as from Spears & Munsil blu-ray test disc (probably about $30 on Amazon).
You can also download some test patterns from this Forum, but I don't remember which thread had the link to them.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

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**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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