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post #61 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 05:30 AM
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AV Science is offering to calibrate these for $199, Isn't that supposed to be done after a break in period? And is it really necessary?
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post #62 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan.Pierce View Post

AV Science is offering to calibrate these for $199, Isn't that supposed to be done after a break in period? And is it really necessary?

I will say that I am a total believer in ISF calibration. Years ago I had my CRT RPTV ISF calibrated and could not have been happier.

I personally have decided not to do it with my Epson PJ. I am not sure it is worth it simply because grayscale/gamma is pretty good out of the box (although I haven't emperically tested mine yet) and the calibration will change quickly as the bulb ages or you replace it.

My RPTV grayscale wasn't even close so the ISF calibration was a HUGE improvement - and "lasted" quite a few years. Worth every penny, no doubt.

On top of all of this, I have recently taken to calibrating my own displays. I have an eyeone colorimeter; I do it because it is fun for me and I can tweak it back in as time goes by. If you might be interested in this, google "grayscale for dummies", there is a most excellent online article on how to do it.

So tough call... I definately do not consider ISF calibration "snake oil", I just need to be sold on it for digital projectors (esp. since I can do alot of it myself now).
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post #63 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan.Pierce View Post

AV Science is offering to calibrate these for $199, Isn't that supposed to be done after a break in period? And is it really necessary?

The problem with bulb based projectors is that the lamps color profile changes throughout its life and never settles in. (at least this is my experience with my Epson 1080UB).

Fortunately, I have a Eye-one LT colorometer and free HCFR software, along with the free download calibration disc on this site, AVSHD REC.709.

Total cost is about $150, and I can calibrate over and over again as much as needed. Granted, you need to be willing to invest the time to read and learn how to calibrate.

Oh yeah, and my calibrated result are far and away better than the default settings. However, the new THX mode on these new Epsons may be good enough.

Dan
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post #64 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lilalfy110 View Post

Hey I am trying to set up my projector on a stand until Its mounted to the ceiling and I have no idea how to fix the trapezoid effect. Its skinny on the bottom and wider on the top, its not that noticeable but some light leaks out from the top, does anyone know where the Keystone settings are? Can I access it from the settings menu? If anyone knows how to get rid of the trapezoid effect please let me know!

To expand on what engelba said...

From what you describe, the front of your projector is too high relative to the back of the projector. Bring down the front, or raise the back until there is no keystone, then use the lens adjustment to raise or lower the image to center it on the screen.

Dan
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post #65 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by engelba View Post

On top of all of this, I have recently taken to calibrating my own displays. I have an eyeone colorimeter; I do it because it is fun for me and I can tweak it back in as time goes by. If you might be interested in this, google "grayscale for dummies", there is a most excellent online article on how to do it.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

I bought a meter last month but I have not used it yet. It's nice to read that real people are having good results.

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post #66 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Mathis View Post

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

I bought a meter last month but I have not used it yet. It's nice to read that real people are having good results.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16166537

In addition, here is my calibration guide specifically for the Epsons.

If any of you have the capability, I would love to know if Epson has resolved their issue with color saturation I describe on the 8700UB or 9700UB. If someone could measure a full color saturation scale measurement (all 30 points) after calibration and post the results, I would be VERY grateful.

Thanks.

Dan
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post #67 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16166537

In addition, here is my calibration guide specifically for the Epsons.

Awesome, thank you for putting that together....
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post #68 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 08:20 AM
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I really want this projector, but I'm afraid I will be disappointed by the lack of sharpness vs DLP, should I be?
Also, is convergence really a problem?
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post #69 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan.Pierce View Post

I really want this projector, but I'm afraid I will be disappointed by the lack of sharpness vs DLP, should I be?
Also, is convergence really a problem?

If you watch mostly movies, then you shouldn't be dissapointed with the sharpness, but we can't judge your pickiness. For HTPC and gaming sharpness can be an issue sometimes due to small text or small objects, but you can usually find a workaround.

Convergence can be an issue with any LCD, just be ready to RMA if the convergence isn't within what you consider acceptable until you get a decent unit.


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post #70 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 10:49 AM
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Well, single chip DLP's are about the sharpest out there. Would you be coming from a DLP projector?

Having said that, I don't feel that these Epson's are lacking in sharpness, that's for sure.

I game on my PS3 all the time with my 1080UB and it looks great. Plenty sharp. No problem reading fine text. I can't imagine that the 8700UB would be any worse.

If a convergence problem is noticeable, then simply call Epson and have them overnight you a replacement projector to try out.

Dan
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post #71 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Well, single chip DLP's are about the sharpest out there. Would you be coming from a DLP projector?

Having said that, I don't feel that these Epson's are lacking in sharpness, that's for sure.

I game on my PS3 all the time with my 1080UB and it looks great. Plenty sharp. No problem reading fine text. I can't imagine that the 8700UB would be any worse.

If a convergence problem is noticeable, then simply call Epson and have them overnight you a replacement projector to try out.

Dan

I would agree, I don't have an issue with the sharpness of my 8700. I really don't have a choice anyways as I am RBE sensitive (well at the price points I am looking at :-) ).

I would definately be sure that your are not RBE sensitive before pulling the trigger. I *almost* went DLP when I found a store that had the mits hc3800 (?) which is DLP.... Saw rainbows and got a headache looking at it.
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post #72 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 11:31 AM
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This topic kind of popped up in another forum concerning using UPS's/conditioners with the PJ but....

In my setup I was planning to use the direct power on feature on the projector such that I would have it plugged into the back of my pre-processor. That way when the pre-pro is turned on, it would fire up my projector.

The problem I see with this is when I turn it off, it will kill power to the PJ instantly such that it cannot run the fan and will not be able to cool down the bulb after the PJ is turned "off".

So is this a good idea? After hours of viewing in living room mode the fan only runs for about 5 seconds or so after I turn it off anyways.
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post #73 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engelba View Post

I would agree, I don't have an issue with the sharpness of my 8700. I really don't have a choice anyways as I am RBE sensitive (well at the price points I am looking at :-) ).

I would definately be sure that your are not RBE sensitive before pulling the trigger. I *almost* went DLP when I found a store that had the mits hc3800 (?) which is DLP.... Saw rainbows and got a headache looking at it.

Right, not generally an issue when getting a unit with good convergence. Have seen both Mits and Epson, sharpness can still be a TINY factor even with good convergence when playing games due to the tiny details (PC monitors tend to be extremely sharp so the designers don't really take into account a display with a little less sharpness). You can just play in lower resolution if so, and some of this also has to do with your viewing distance relative to screen size.

What I mean is, on certain fonts it can be hard to read with tiny text. But yes, if you get an Epson with good to great convergence, sharpness should be a non-issue for 95%+ of people.


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post #74 of 2898 Old 10-14-2010, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Well, single chip DLP's are about the sharpest out there. Would you be coming from a DLP projector?

Dan


I'm coming from a Mitsubishi 65" rear projection DLP. I didn't notice RBE. I have no idea how this projector will size up to the RPTV.

I am now stuck between this projector and the JVC DLA-HD250.
Going to just have to pick one and end this insanity
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post #75 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

If any of you have the capability, I would love to know if Epson has resolved their issue with color saturation I describe on the 8700UB or 9700UB. If someone could measure a full color saturation scale measurement (all 30 points) after calibration and post the results, I would be VERY grateful.

So I took a swag at this last night with laughable results.....

This the 1st time I've tried calibrating a projector and certainly the 1st time I've tried setting the primary/secondary colors (never had a display with a CMS before). Before this I've done a couple of LCD displays and my trusty CRT RPTV.

I pretty much followed the grayscale for dummies guide and attached is my result. It appears the red "tracks" well but the green and blue are "bowed" out. Needless to say, the colors look awful after my calibration.

I went through the excercise twice, resetting everything in bewteen the 2 attempts. The results were nearly the same (grayscale was a bit better on my 2 attempt). The 2 grayscale dots that are way outside are 10% and 0% IRE (I believe). All this was done in THX color mode.


A couple of interesting things I noted....

It appears THX mode grayscale is set for 7000K as it tracked that quite well. I had to add alot of red (R gain) to get it down to 6500 (plus a few other tweaks in other colors).

Out of the box, the green primary is WAY off. Red/Blue were kind of close. Secondaries we kind of close.


So I am going to take another swag at this, any suggestions appreciated. I will probably just create another thread over in the display calibration forum for my misadventures in calibration and post stuff in this thread specific to the 8700.
LL
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post #76 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan.Pierce View Post

I'm coming from a Mitsubishi 65" rear projection DLP. I didn't notice RBE. I have no idea how this projector will size up to the RPTV.

I am now stuck between this projector and the JVC DLA-HD250.
Going to just have to pick one and end this insanity

If you have the cash, there's no question that you should go with the JVC. Having said that, a well calibrated Epson with good convergence is very close to the JVC in regards to absolute black level and show detail. The Epson has a better warranty and better FI (IMO) along with better processing and higher ultimate lumen output. But the JVC is just a better projector for a number of other reasons.
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post #77 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 10:18 AM
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Everyone

I just bought an 8700. Amazing projector (sharp, bright, great color, quiet) even right out of box with no adjustments...for blu ray, hdtv cable, and even dvd. Using my old "Video Essentials" dvd on the unit set at Theater Black 1 results in very little that needs to be changed at all - well adjusted set out of box which is new to me...my old hdtv required a lot of adjustment.

I am now setting up some custom setups for watching various things. For example, my setup for dvd would have more sharpening than for bluray.

Question: Default for bluray seems to be 4:4 pulldown, which excludes the use of frame interpolation. Should I leave it that way...or turn off 4:4 and use the interpolation at a low setting?

Thanks for any thoughts you can provide.
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post #78 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hansformat View Post


Question: Default for bluray seems to be 4:4 pulldown, which excludes the use of frame interpolation. Should I leave it that way...or turn off 4:4 and use the interpolation at a low setting?

Thanks for any thoughts you can provide.

That really boils down to personal preference. I'd just try both out and see which one (if either of them) gives you a more pleasing viewing experience. There's not really a wrong or right way to do it. Personally, I don't really see much difference with 4:4 on, but I do see slightly smoother motion with frame interpolation set to low.

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post #79 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:09 AM
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My dilemma is i cant pull the trigger on a new projector and its killing me...
Too many choices - 8350, 8700, BenQ W6000

Questions:
Will the 8700ub projector display a sharp image for daily HDTV viewing (love my shows on TIVO) and HDTV sports (College and NFL games).

I picked up the the Elune Vision Perlux Silver 120 in screen for a great price.
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post #80 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GardenVariety View Post

If you have the cash, there's no question that you should go with the JVC.

I'm interested in a discussion expanding on this. I'm in the same boat in regard to trying to compare the HD250 to the 8700. I understand the basics between the technologies (LCD vs. LCoS) and that the JVC is regarded as the better built machine. But given all of the extra processing capabilities of the Epson (Super Resolution and FI specifically), why would the JVC definitely be the better projector?
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post #81 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephion View Post

My dilemma is i cant pull the trigger on a new projector and its killing me...
Too many choices - 8350, 8700, BenQ W6000

Questions:
Will the 8700ub projector display a sharp image for daily HDTV viewing (love my shows on TIVO) and HDTV sports (College and NFL games).

I picked up the the Elune Vision Perlux Silver 120 in screen for a great price.

Save money...go with the 8500UB, and purchase a bulb warranty for $80. I don't think the 8700Ub is much of an improvement over the 8500UB.
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post #82 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:29 AM
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My only opinion on this is that the black level performance of the JVC -vs- the 8700 is not going be all that noticeable in rooms that are not fully light controlled - meaning black ceiling, dark carpet, dark walls etc..... Given my room is not a bat cave solely dedicated for movies, I went with the Epson. I also rather have the CMS to keep my color/grayscale correct as the bulb ages and the FI feature. color/grayscale inaccuracies bother me more than black level performance.

Only my opinion, just don't end up in analysis paralysis. Either projector is going to be good but considering this is my 1st one I went with the Epson. I can almost guarantee that my next one will LCOS based - in a couple of years when the prices come down and features increase.
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post #83 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engelba View Post

So I took a swag at this last night with laughable results.....

This the 1st time I've tried calibrating a projector and certainly the 1st time I've tried setting the primary/secondary colors (never had a display with a CMS before). Before this I've done a couple of LCD displays and my trusty CRT RPTV.

I pretty much followed the grayscale for dummies guide and attached is my result. It appears the red "tracks" well but the green and blue are "bowed" out. Needless to say, the colors look awful after my calibration.

I went through the excercise twice, resetting everything in bewteen the 2 attempts. The results were nearly the same (grayscale was a bit better on my 2 attempt). The 2 grayscale dots that are way outside are 10% and 0% IRE (I believe). All this was done in THX color mode.


A couple of interesting things I noted....

It appears THX mode grayscale is set for 7000K as it tracked that quite well. I had to add alot of red (R gain) to get it down to 6500 (plus a few other tweaks in other colors).

Out of the box, the green primary is WAY off. Red/Blue were kind of close. Secondaries we kind of close.


So I am going to take another swag at this, any suggestions appreciated. I will probably just create another thread over in the display calibration forum for my misadventures in calibration and post stuff in this thread specific to the 8700.

Don't worry about 0 or 10% if you are using only i1D2. They are not that good at low light anyway.
Speaking at my own experience, the i1D2 I got read RED too low. So, after the calibration, my screen looks pinkish. Remember, your calibration is only as good as the accuracy of your equipment...I ended up getting a ColorMunki and my result is much better (and also confirmed that my i1D2 is reading RED low). The lesson I learned is that you need to trust your eyes as well. If it does not look right, it usually is not. Good luck.
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post #84 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engelba View Post

My only opinion on this is that the black level performance of the JVC -vs- the 8700 is not going be all that noticeable in rooms that are not fully light controlled - meaning black ceiling, dark carpet, dark walls etc......

Very true. None of the high contrast projectors are being utilized to their fullest unless the room is completely light controlled. Most will actually look very, very similar in a typical living room setup. It's not until there's no reflection back on the screen that you see what the projector can actually do. At least, that's what I've seen in my experience. Shopping comes down to features the projector has if you're not in a completely light controlled environment.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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post #85 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 04:05 PM
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I think my other hang-up with the Epson, is that compared next to the JVC, it's ... well ... kinda pud looking.

I know I shouldn't get hung up on appearances (proof is in the performance), but I'd rather have a sleek, black bullet on my ceiling than a white box with an eyeball hanging out. Just my (vain) opinion.
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post #86 of 2898 Old 10-15-2010, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roknrol View Post

I think my other hang-up with the Epson, is that compared next to the JVC, it's ... well ... kinda pud looking.

I know I shouldn't get hung up on appearances (proof is in the performance), but I'd rather have a sleek, black bullet on my ceiling than a white box with an eyeball hanging out. Just my (vain) opinion.

The JVC's physical appearance is much better the the Epson's to me, as well. Part of its looks actually keep me from getting one since it's so deep, it won't fit in my setup.

Stephen.

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post #87 of 2898 Old 10-17-2010, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by roknrol View Post

I think my other hang-up with the Epson, is that compared next to the JVC, it's ... well ... kinda pud looking.

I know I shouldn't get hung up on appearances (proof is in the performance), but I'd rather have a sleek, black bullet on my ceiling than a white box with an eyeball hanging out. Just my (vain) opinion.

It's funny, I live in a small town and the only 2 projectors i can see are a jvc 550 and an epson 9500. I cant do dlp because i get motion sickness from it. So i have been left with lcd and lcos. Ive probably spent almost 3 hours at this store where they have the jvc in one room, and the epson in the other. We would put on the same movie at the same time and go back and forth to campare. Ive never owned a pj so i am new to this but i would nitpick every little thing with the pic. The jvc puts out a really nice picture, prob sharper and cleaner than the epson. But its hard to describe, almost like a very soft picture. No pop at all in it. I watched a monday night nfl game on it and it almost put me to sleep. When i walked over to the epson, i was wowed. The game looked ALIVE. Pop and colors everywhere. And the same in movies, so much more pop and livelyness to the picture. And the sharpness and clarity were by far good enough for me. To each their own and i can totally see why people like the jvcs. I just prefer the epson
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post #88 of 2898 Old 10-18-2010, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zephion View Post

My dilemma is i cant pull the trigger on a new projector and its killing me...
Too many choices - 8350, 8700, BenQ W6000

I read on here somewhere from someone who called up BenQ that they are coming out with the successor to the W6000 in the not so distant future, it will be 3D.
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post #89 of 2898 Old 10-18-2010, 03:38 AM
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Local home theater distributor called and said "we have the new 9700UB and JVC 550 for you to check out"... I jumped on it and decided to bring the wife and kids with me.

We sat in both demo rooms for about 30 min each watching a combo of HDTV NCAA football, movie on TNT, and Blueray Transformers.

First Impressions from me and the family.

9700UB / 106in white screen / semi dark room:
~ Wife: OMG is this real? Simply stunning, looks better than the movies, HDTV looks super. You made your point - how long before "our" home theater is ready?
~Kids: Dad this is so awesome
~Me: Sports are crisp and jump off the screen (detected some blur in fast crowd movement) could be the settings - not a big deal, BD content looks like a Movie and vibrant colors that pop.

JVC 550 with Anamorphic lens / 110 stewart firehawk / totally dark room:
~Wife: Looks expensive (i have no idea what that means), everything looks perfect but it needs to be dark in here to really get the effect not like the other room. I dont want to sit in the dark all the time to enjoy this thing... I like the other one more (Epson).
~Kids: Dad this rocks! can we get it too?
~Me: breathtaking image on blueray content, HDTV sports - kind of movie like, not crisp. The color and image is life like...

Overall impression: I'm a newbie front projector enthusiast just getting into the game so take what i say as just that " i don't know squat"

Both projectors are as good to better picture quality than our point of reference - which is a 65in panny plasma.

The JVC is outstanding in its picture quality not as bright and does not hold up to ambient light at all. We had to make sure the door was always closed to keep the screen from fading/washing out

The Epson is hard to deny - it did everything just right and image felt comfortable across various content...its a great all around performer and will work in my not so dark, game room, bar, open space basement layout.

In comparing the JVC to the Epson I get the image quality differences and give the nod to JVC (barely) but JVC is not worth 2-3 times the price of the Epson.

Side note: 9700UB vs. Ambient light - this sucker shrugged it off. The demo room has double french doors leading to a main gallery with a couple of table lamps and fixed wall sconces. I would say the equivalent of 60 watt bulb was coming through the doors when open and i have to say picture quality was barely impacted.

If you are waiting to pull the trigger like i was JUST DO IT! FRONT Projection and size cant be beat!

If you cant tell by now I am saving myself the $1000 bucks between the 9700UB and getting the 8700UB with the voucher!
zephion is offline  
post #90 of 2898 Old 10-18-2010, 05:46 AM
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I pretty much came to the same conclusion. If I had a totally dedicated home theater bat cave, the JVC would be a no brainer. Instead I kind of have a multi-purpose room for mixed movies/tv etc.. so the Epson seemed like a better choice. I haven't regretted it thus far.

One other thing to note, if color accuracy matters to you then you really need a CMS in your PJ. As far as I know, the JVC 250 doesn't have it.
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