CRE X1000 Worlds First 3 LED 3 LCD 1080p Projector..Anybody heard of these guys? - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1272 Old 05-29-2011, 04:24 PM
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for the price of the cre you can get a 1080p and @4380 hours a year(12hrs a day)and 3or4 years worth of bulbs-720p prob 6to7 years worth of bulbs at least(and dlp link 3d)- or one of the 720p lcos or dlp bulb less that are out there(i think there are 12 or so)

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post #452 of 1272 Old 05-29-2011, 04:27 PM
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Also I just checked my exhuast temp on the Runco Q-750i It is a steady state 88.6F after 30 minutes of a BD movie. But I have four 80mm fans on the intake and the exhuast running at low speed to keep massive amounts of air moving.

David

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post #453 of 1272 Old 05-29-2011, 07:13 PM
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Thats intresting news Mcagusto, organic & inorganic, i wonder what the cost between them is, and if they can be swapped out easily by a tech guy..
Wheres the D7 inorganic ones going to at the moment and is it in some epson products yet?cool
LED should run cooler but since seeing eatmeats LED death ray clip! these things are looking dangerous! lol

Also on a side note, the x1000 shuts off instantly with the remote. its a easy habit to learn if u need to go to the bathroom. the heatsink in the x1000 is like a PC one its cools very fast on shutdown etc. Projector starts from off to fully on in...wait lemme check... 8 seconds.
Screen burn yep could be, anyhow my x1000 has an extra layer of protection in its own makeshift coolbox with dust catchers 3 x 120mm fans sucking air on 3 sides and another fan on the rear exhausting (do i need slow movements?). Just hope thats enough to keep the gremlins at bay
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post #454 of 1272 Old 05-29-2011, 08:13 PM
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Wow!!!! The organic panel thing it HUGE. This topic and issue has been bandied around for a while in this thread. The biggest flaw in the ENTIRE LCD system is the freaking Blue screen!!! I have made several comments specifically relating to the newer inorganic panels that are NOT supposed to break down and how this unit has disproved this theory. If these are a "lite" version of the panels than I would strongly suggest that you contact the folks at Cree and ask them if you can order two spare blue panels as its just a matter of time before you get the same burn in effect in the future. I'm not saying that it will happen soon but My guess is you will never get near 30K hours out of a blue panel. Look at the LCD video and you get an idea of the kind of light bombardment that these panels are subjected to.

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post #455 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 02:54 AM
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Bohanna >>> After finding out this "tidbit of info" i started to think about the thousands of owners of inexpensive HD LCD pjs out there which use D7 panels from Epson and have no idea of this, confident such as i was that by simply seeing the label "D7" it would automatically imply "C2FINE inorganic layer technology from Epson", even though the company claims in its website there is nothing detrimental in using organic material in polarizers !
I wonder if Epson is using these lower cost chips inside its own projectors, hmm...
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post #456 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 05:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

Bohanna >>> After finding out this "tidbit of info" i started to think about the thousands of owners of inexpensive HD LCD pjs out there which use D7 panels from Epson and have no idea of this, confident such as i was that by simply seeing the label "D7" it would automatically imply "C2FINE inorganic layer technology from Epson", even though the company claims in its website there is nothing detrimental in using organic material in polarizers !
I wonder if Epson is using these lower cost chips inside its own projectors, hmm...

Yes, Mits uses organic D7 in the HC6800 and yet the much cheaper 8350 uses inorganic D7..
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post #457 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 07:41 AM
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I wonder how much of an effect heat has on the speed at which they break down.

David

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post #458 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellmejunk View Post

Thats intresting news Mcagusto, organic & inorganic, i wonder what the cost between them is, and if they can be swapped out easily by a tech guy..

Pretty sure the LCD controllers are radically different, which would make swapping impossible.
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post #459 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 09:18 AM
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really intresting article for D7 panels

D7 panel for entry-level projectors is 10 bit
Specifications
Product name L3D07U-85G30
LCD type TN organic alignment layer
Effective pixels 1920 x 1080 (1080p)
Panel size (diagonal) 0.7 inch (1.9 cm)
Pixel pitch 8.5 µm
Aperture ratio 52%
LCD driver 10 bit
Video signal transmission CMOS
Frame rate 60 frames per second
LCD driver type Hybrid
Process technology D7

the ones listed for higher end projectors are the inorganic ones 12 bit.


Click to enlarge

If the LED versions run cooler than a standard LCD version + the x1000 seems to have quick cool PC style heatsink. Tho as for the issues i encountered, i cannot explain. Loose wiring/ connection was mentioned in tech report, but they didnt give me an indepth reply.
The X1000 without the coolbox runs pretty cool. Its all a bit of a mystery.

Its Crazy Nuts If there was a Inorganic heat resistant 12 bit projector with 60,000 lamplife, that would be the dream of whats its like to be in projector heaven. Really wish these companies would step up their game use all the technologies that are available.

Its times like this i yearn for the knowledge to build a projector, using all those lovely lasting parts.
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post #460 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 02:02 PM
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I emailed CRE early this morning concerning this matter and the company already answered it, a very speedy and considerate performance from any company, let alone a small company located somewhere in China, so i'll give CRE credit for customer service.
The email stated that after checking with their chief engineer the "X1000 uses the Epson D7 LCD chip model L3D07U-83G00".
This is a model NOT described at Epson's website, however it has the same initial six numbers + letters (L3D07U) as the one on the website that is described as having the organic material polarizers, the D7 chip model L3D07U-85G30.
Since the other two D7 chips that have INorganic material have their designation started with "L3C07U" and NOT "L3D07U" i surmised that the CRE X1000 uses yet another less expensive variation of the Epson D7 chip that have ORGANIC material, due to its lower cost to assemblers, as i imagined !
I was ready to place an order for what appeared to be an incredible bargain in the world of pjs, however i cannot purchase a LCD projector in this day and age that still uses organic material in its polarizers; I've read enough on the subject and notwithstanding Epson's claims to the contrary that there isn't anything intrisically wrong with it, i am not ready to take a chance with all the risks involved particularly due to my specific need for a pj that runs for 10~12 hours each day, call me a paranoid/neurotic A/V freakaholic !
PS: Vivitek Qumi, here's waiting for you in due time...
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post #461 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 04:04 PM
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correct me if i`m wrong but isnt the Vivitek qumis native resolution only 1200 x 800, If your paying out cash its better to get 1920 x1080 (Native resolution really does make a difference) 30,000 hours of HD ready instead of full HD?. mjg100 mentioned the epson 8350 to have the inorganic D7 panel.
1200 X 800 is one step up from 1024 x 768
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post #462 of 1272 Old 05-30-2011, 04:38 PM
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good work Mcaugusto, you got the model number

L3D07U83G00 is the L3D07U-8x section on epson webpage)


DataSheet
Orginal link
Its the L3D07U-8x series and 3G00 refers to the batch number
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post #463 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellmejunk View Post

correct me if i`m wrong but isnt the Vivitek qumis native resolution only 1200 x 800, If your paying out cash its better to get 1920 x1080 (Native resolution really does make a difference) 30,000 hours of HD ready instead of full HD?. mjg100 mentioned the epson 8350 to have the inorganic D7 panel.
1200 X 800 is one step up from 1024 x 768

It's 300 lumens, on a normal screen size for 300 lumens, i doubt you notice much difference in sharpness unless you are sitting 3 feet away.
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post #464 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 09:25 AM
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Actually there are many calculators out there that will show you the recommended seating distance based on resolution and screen size. Between the two non Full HD there is a 22% difference in the number of pixels. not a big deal. Also 300 lumen is just like any other projector that is a max white value not a real world calibrated or even watchable value.

As for the Qumis compared to full HD; HD has 1.636 times more pixels and that is noticable. I have an old 1024, by 768 proxima I had running this past weekend and the difference even at moderate screen sizes is amazing.

LED light does feel brighter... I am not going to go into it here there are many threads that talk about this so a calibrated LED projector feels about 25% brighter than the number say. I have 10.2FL but it feels/looks like my Vidikron 75 at 13.4 FL.

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post #465 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

I was ready to place an order for what appeared to be an incredible bargain in the world of pjs, however i cannot purchase a LCD projector in this day and age that still uses organic material in its polarizers; I've read enough on the subject and notwithstanding Epson's claims to the contrary that there isn't anything intrisically wrong with it, i am not ready to take a chance with all the risks involved particularly due to my specific need for a pj that runs for 10~12 hours each day, call me a paranoid/neurotic A/V freakaholic !
PS: Vivitek Qumi, here's waiting for you in due time...

With the delay in the QUMI, I was thinking about this projector for regular on/off TV viewing. I have 3 other projectors, but generally won't use them for short viewing periods.

thanks for checking on the panels. I also avoid the organic LCD projectors, the burnt polarizer on the first model could be a sign of things to come with this model.

it's a shame Epson didn't decide to offer the 8700 with an LED light source. It would be a way to recycle their LCD line once their version of LCOS hit's later in the year. They must have run into serious issues with the 2011 models announced at CEDIA and of course Panasonic suffers since they use their panels.
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post #466 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 11:26 AM
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I`ve sent CRE a e-mail asking if i was to pay extra cash, would they be able to uprgrade my x1000 panel to the inorganic L3C07U-8x.

I know its pretty unlikely as verge said it woud use different controllers etc, still cant hurt to ask.
Also asked if they have plans for to use it in a future model.

When i get a reply i`ll post it here
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post #467 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovingtravler View Post

Also 300 lumen is just like any other projector that is a max white value not a real world calibrated or even watchable value.

The reviews of several other pico led projectors showed their calibrated lumens being very close to factory settings. Could it be the fact that they are not originally starting with a white light? I have no idea, maybe the factories haven't started lying and making up specs to put on the marketing flyers. Either way, with 300 lumens, you aren't going to have a 100 inch diagonal screen, so while 1080p is cool... i don't think it should be a deal breaker.
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post #468 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 02:42 PM
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My Runco is factory rated at 700. When set to max white with all the settings I would not enable when actually watching a moview I get well over 600 lumens.

When calibrated to D65 ISF standards I get about 450 (if I remember correctly) about 2/3 of rated.

The Sim2 Mico 50/60 are rated at 800 and still only gets about 50- 75 more lumens than mine when calibrated as above. The TruVue Vango is rated at 1000 lumen but not at D65 again when calibrated to ISF D65 it ranges from low 500 to max of about 600 and maybe a little higher.

It really depends on the company JVC now rates their new pjs at 9300K temp so they can bost 1300 lumens even though the new line calibrated puts out almost exactly the same as the older series

In general UHP and stadard lamps/projectors will have about 50% of max rated output.
LED projectors have about 60-75% of max rated output.

at least for LED 450 on a 120" 1.1 gain screen as I listed above looks as bright as my previous projector at over 625 lumens.

Verge. I think you are right... the manufacturers have not figured out how much to fudge the numbers. Also LED is much closer to the "required" color output so less light is "wasted" in unusable spect.

According to the thater caculator 4.0 software on a few sites if you actually had 300 lumens on a 1.0 gain 100" screen you would get 10.1 FL... 12 FL is reccomended. assuming 75% brightness you need a 75" screen at 1.0 Gain to get 10.1 FL

David

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post #469 of 1272 Old 05-31-2011, 02:54 PM
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http://carltonbale.com/home-theater/...ter-calculator

Here is a link to the calc.

David

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post #470 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 07:09 AM
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One thing to keep in mind WRT the organic panels is that the issues most have had with Blue-screen burn had nothing to do with the panels themselves. It was the blue polarizer that got burnt, not the LCD panels.

A burnt blue polarizer is a bummer, for sure, but usually something that can be replaced be an end use if need be. I had to replace the blue polarizer on my Sanyo PJ back in the day. The part cost roughly $100 dollars.

While organic panels will have a shorter lifespan than inorganic, they should still last quite a while before showing any problems.

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post #471 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golfnz34me View Post

One thing to keep in mind WRT the organic panels is that the issues most have had with Blue-screen burn had nothing to do with the panels themselves. It was the blue polarizer that got burnt, not the LCD panels.

A burnt blue polarizer is a bummer, for sure, but usually something that can be replaced be an end use if need be. I had to replace the blue polarizer on my Sanyo PJ back in the day. The part cost roughly $100 dollars.

While organic panels will have a shorter lifespan than inorganic, they should still last quite a while before showing any problems.

Mike

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure, they might be replaceable by someone dextrous with electronic repairs, who can find the right parts and has good eyesight to deal with the intricacies, but as an owner i wouldn't look forward to changing polarizers in very delicate LCD panels after 2~3 years of usage.
I remember reading test reports for lifetime expectancy of LCD panels with organic polarizer material which indicated an average of 2.500 hours of use before severe degradation set in.
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post #472 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by golfnz34me View Post

One thing to keep in mind WRT the organic panels is that the issues most have had with Blue-screen burn had nothing to do with the panels themselves. It was the blue polarizer that got burnt, not the LCD panels.

A burnt blue polarizer is a bummer, for sure, but usually something that can be replaced be an end use if need be. I had to replace the blue polarizer on my Sanyo PJ back in the day. The part cost roughly $100 dollars.

While organic panels will have a shorter lifespan than inorganic, they should still last quite a while before showing any problems.

Mike

The way it usually goes is the blue polarizer starts to break down and it cooks the Blue LCD panel. If it is just a matter of replacing the polarizer it is no big deal and requires little alignment. If you have to replace the actual panel the new panel requires an alignment which is tricky even for the experienced tech. The youtube video clip of the new LED burning through various materials is a good demonstration of just how intense the beam that goes through the panels is. The UV band that the blue panel sees and has to filter is the most intense and destructive. I don't believe that the inorganic panels are immune to it but I think they will tolerate the light beam better. If you can get 8 to 10 thousand hours out a a blue panel you are doing great.

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post #473 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 04:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

Well guys, i just found out that Epson does indeed have a variant model in the D7 line of LCD chips which uses ORGANIC material for polarization, instead of much longer lasting inorganic layer; This 1920x1080 D7 LCD chip was designed and manufactured exclusively for lower cost HD projectors.
This certainly puts a crimp on my plans to buy a CRE X1000, because that picture posted by sellmejunk showing the yellow "stain" in the middle of the image looked suspiciously like organic polarizer burn-in to my eyes,

.What do you guys think ?

So like how much money did the inexperienced here really save?
I spent $5K on a name brand LCoS with inorganic panels and its now has a pink tint on the right edge, with only 800 hours.
Those who want a projector that will last long (and especially for 3D) then read this Carl Zeiss projector trade study:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20505331
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post #474 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 04:25 PM
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Through the projector info screen, via the menu.
The cre X1000 color temperatures has :

Red typically running at 40 -42 degrees
Green typically runs at 66-69 degrees
& blue runs typically at 40-45 degrees

its the same readings as when i had it the 1st time. This seems to be its typical colour temperatures.

Is there some sort of LED VS LCD compensation going on here in regards to green / blue?
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post #475 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiFiFun View Post

So like how much money did the inexperienced here really save?
I spent $5K on a name brand LCoS with inorganic panels and its now has a pink tint on the right edge, with only 800 hours.
Those who want a projector that will last long (and especially for 3D) then read this Carl Zeiss projector trade study:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20505331

The link you posted was dead and after about 20 MINUTES of goggling I found some Zeiss site that related to dome projectors so WTF is so important about this report??? Could you at least C/P the relative text you are referring to?????????

Did I say the link??? I ment BOTH links that were attached to your post.

Bohanna
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post #476 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohanna View Post


The link you posted was dead and after about 20 MINUTES of goggling I found some Zeiss site that related to dome projectors so WTF is so important about this report??? Could you at least C/P the relative text you are referring to?????????

Did I say the link??? I ment BOTH links that were attached to your post.

Bohanna

Yep, 404 here too...

Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector____Paradigm 9SE MK II Main LR
Yamaha RX-V667 AVR_______________Paradigm CC-270 V.3 Center
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post #477 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 06:08 PM
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Darn hifi that suxs, hope u managed to get a new one.


Sourced from HC6800 with D7 .

Normal Organic D7 LCDs a higher light output than their contrasting optimized C ² Fine siblings. The reason: In the resting state (ie without applied voltage) can these panels, let light through it like a pane of glass. Only with increasing crystal rotation by applied voltage, they are dimmed

.
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post #478 of 1272 Old 06-01-2011, 09:53 PM
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Geez,

This entire exchange about the weakness of LCD is starting to make me pretty biased for DLP. I mean, just as I'm reading this fine thread on what (may) have brought the CRE to its knees, this new thread pops up...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post20515006

It's all says to me that if you want to use a proj for hours at a time like a tv, buy something with DLP and LED, then...

FOGGETTABOUTIT.
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post #479 of 1272 Old 06-02-2011, 06:52 AM
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Sell me junk

Those settings are not color temp settings they are chroma and or luminis settings.

Color temp is a different animal. color temp is measured in Kelvin and should be set to 6500K i.e. D65 for standard.

David

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post #480 of 1272 Old 06-02-2011, 09:06 AM
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Thxs rovingtravler.
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