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post #451 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

You have a w6000 to watch too?

I have a very good friend that owns one. Shoot.. I set it up for him.
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post #452 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ah OK.
I setup a couple projectors for some friends, but most of my friends think I'm crazy when I tell them I only own projectors and no TV's. Although I will probably buy a Plasma this year maybe, just because I need to stop burning lamps up so fast, lol.


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post #453 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Ahhh OK, that's cool.
I setup a couple projectors for some friends, but most of my friends think I'm crazy when I tell them I only own projectors and no TV's. Although I will probably buy a Plasma this year maybe, just because I need to stop burning lamps up so fast, lol.

Yeah I'm setting up another friend now. I couldn't get him to spend the extra on the w6000. So he's getting the Epson 8350..he's a noob..and wouldn't know the difference if it slapped him in the face anyway.lol
We should have his up and running by next weekend I hope.
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post #454 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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The 8350 is not bad...


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post #455 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:37 AM
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Yeah I've install one and seen another in a dealer's shop. They look OK..not bad at all for a first projector.
We don't have a Fry's here, but I did go into one while I was out west. Las Vegas had the Epson and Benq in their theater room. Of course they didn't have any thing playing.
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post #456 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm going to check out 5 showrooms at this place in 2 weeks as long as I have time between jobs:
http://star-power.com/

I don't know what projectors they have on display though, I'll find out when I get there. Just my luck it'll probably be 5 I've already seen.
Also going to check out a Runco in Denver next month, but seeing the Runco is going to cause me to want it badly and it'll cost too much.


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post #457 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I'm going to check out 5 showrooms at this place in 2 weeks as long as I have time between jobs:
http://star-power.com/

I don't know what projectors they have on display though, I'll find out when I get there. Just my luck it'll probably be 5 I've already seen.
Also going to check out a Runco in Denver next month, but the Runco is going to PO me cause I'll want it and it'll cost too much.

IMO the Runco and other projectors like it are the one's to beat! That Runco throws an amazing image! The Vango should be similar and its cheaper. I'll be ready for one in a few years!
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post #458 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

It may not be the only reason RBE decreases, but I wouldn't rule it completely out either. The burning in or aging of the lamp must play some role. The brain itself also plays a role.

All projectors besides the LEDs start off brighter than what is intended by the engineers designing them. I'm sure they have a reference point of where the picture is most optimal to work with the processor and software.
That optimal reference point wouldn't be when you first fire it up.

I saw RBE when I first viewed the W6000. Now when I watch it, I have to go looking for it to see any RBE.

Interesting - there has always been somewhat of a debate over the effects of burn-in time on solid state audio gear; I tend to believe there is an effect on the overall sound. I am curious as to what the pictures differences will be over time of a new PJ vs one with 100 or so hours on it.
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post #459 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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About 5% to 10% brightness loss is a good start...


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post #460 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevhed View Post

Interesting - there has always been somewhat of a debate over the effects of burn-in time on solid state audio gear; I tend to believe there is an effect on the overall sound. I am curious as to what the pictures differences will be over time of a new PJ vs one with 100 or so hours on it.

Colors and black levels/contrast change over the first few hundred hours.
Reds always seem a little strong from the start, as the lamp ages they level off.
Basically the image becomes more balanced. These are just my observations, others may see it differently.
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post #461 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

It may not be the only reason RBE decreases, but I wouldn't rule it completely out either. The burning in or aging of the lamp must play some role. The brain itself also plays a role.
.

It's been shown that brightness plays a role with RBE in dark environments, so the normal aging of the lamp would effect that. The biggest lumens drop is usually within the first 100-200hrs(+/-).

The brain may also play a role (independent of lumens drop), though that is (of course) harder to measure. Lumens probably have at least 90% (probably more) to do with it. A way to test is if you have 2 new lamps, measure the lumens from each to make sure they are close, run one lamp and at the 100 or 200hr point swap the new lamp in. Though you'll have to keep your calibrations the same, any adjustment along the way will taint the results. I'm sure people might of noticed something after swapping an old lamp with a new one??

As for the color wheel breaking in: It's not like speakers which have a suspension system (the accordion like material at the bottom of the speaker cone around the voice coil and the rubber/foam surround at the top) that is stiff when new and looser when broken in. The speaker makes it sound by moving/vibrating, and anything that affects that will affect the sound. The color wheel spins at a absolute speed to sync with the refresh rate, which is controlled by the microprocessor. Falling out of 'sync' would be quite obvious and you wouldn't be complaining about RBE or the lack of it!
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post #462 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 01:44 PM
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For anyone with this guy, how loud is it?

I'm running on an HD1000U which has gotten louder with age, distractingly so.
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post #463 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

It's been shown that brightness plays a role with RBE in dark environments, so the normal aging of the lamp would effect that. The biggest lumens drop is usually within the first 100-200hrs(+/-).

The brain may also play a role (independent of lumens drop), though that is (of course) harder to measure. Lumens probably have at least 90% (probably more) to do with it. A way to test is if you have 2 new lamps, measure the lumens from each to make sure they are close, run one lamp and at the 100 or 200hr point swap the new lamp in. Though you'll have to keep your calibrations the same, any adjustment along the way will taint the results. I'm sure people might of noticed something after swapping an old lamp with a new one??

As for the color wheel breaking in: It's not like speakers which have a suspension system (the accordion like material at the bottom of the speaker cone around the voice coil and the rubber/foam surround at the top) that is stiff when new and looser when broken in. The speaker makes it sound by moving/vibrating, and anything that affects that will affect the sound. The color wheel spins at a absolute speed to sync with the refresh rate, which is controlled by the microprocessor. Falling out of 'sync' would be quite obvious and you wouldn't be complaining about RBE or the lack of it!

I see your point, an automobile engine is synced in much the same way. It does however still incur break in...correct? Not saying you're incorrect here, just being open minded about the phenomenon.
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post #464 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:09 PM
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Ok, I got the HC4000 today. Got it hooked up and did a quick calibration.

What I like:

black level (is better than I thought it would be and was better than Optoma HD80 and very close to Samsung A900B)

noise (is not that loud for a DLP, even on Standard lamp(high))


What I don't like:

brightness - (it is bright but not as bright as I hoped it would be and this is with Brilliant Color on and lamp on Standard(high) Optoma HD80 was brighter with 800 hours on the lamp on low brightness than the HC4000 with BC on and lamp on high.)

Sharpness - (it is not as sharp as I would have hoped. Granted previous projectors I have had were the Samsung A900B and Optoma HD80 which were both real sharp

POP - image doesn't have that high ANSI contrast look which I was accustomed to with the Optoma HD80.

Well, besides doing a grayscale calibration, which I won't do because I would need lamp to reach a few hours, I am returning. This projector is best suited for movies in my opinion because of the good black level(probably the best for any DLP under $1500) but I wanted it for HDTV/Sports and the brightness and sharpness isn't good enough for me. Granted I am extremely picky and these are just my opinions.

Mike

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post #465 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

I see your point, an automobile engine is synced in much the same way. It does however still incur break in...correct? Not saying you're incorrect here, just being open minded about the phenomenon.

Not quite the analogy. But I'll make it work: The distributor of the gas engine is synced to the crank/pistons/camshaft directly (via gear drive). The engine breaking in doesn't change this sync as it's a direct driven gear. Same with the camshaft and crankshaft, both are linked directly (by chain/belt or gear). Their syncing doesn't change after break in.

So lets apply this to the color wheel motor which appears to be a computer hard drive motor. It spins a 7200 rpm (I think), it will have to maintain that RPM to stay in sync with the DLP chip and microprocessor. Lets say that after this motor 'breaks in', it would spin a little faster at the same voltage input. But the microprocessor of course controls the spin rate (RPMs) to keep the CW in sync. So the result of a CW motor breaking in is that after a while it my require a tiny bit less voltage to spin it @ 7200rpm after a few hundred hrs than when new. But it still spins at the same rate as new.
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post #466 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

This projector is best suited for movies in my opinion because of the good black level(probably the best for any DLP under $1500) but I wanted it for HDTV/Sports and the brightness and sharpness isn't good enough for me. Granted I am extremely picky and these are just my opinions.

Mike

How big is your screen?

If want bright, the benq W6000 would probably have been a better match.
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post #467 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Not quite the analogy. But I'll make it work: The distributor of the gas engine is synced to the crank/pistons/camshaft directly (via gear drive). The engine breaking in doesn't change this sync as it's a direct driven gear. Same with the camshaft and crankshaft, both are linked directly (by chain/belt or gear). Their syncing doesn't change after break in.

So lets apply this to the color wheel motor which appears to be a computer hard drive motor. It spins a 7200 rpm (I think), it will have to maintain that RPM to stay in sync with the DLP chip and microprocessor. Lets say that after this motor 'breaks in', it would spin a little faster at the same voltage input. But the microprocessor of course controls the spin rate (RPMs) to keep the CW in sync. So the result of a CW motor breaking in is that after a while it my require a tiny bit less voltage to spin it @ 7200rpm after a few hundred hrs than when new. But it still spins at the same rate as new.

Thanks for the explanation fleaman, I should have hunted you down Sunday. I was in your neck of the woods!
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post #468 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

How big is your screen?

If want bright, the benq W6000 would probably have been a better match.

I have a 92" 2.4 High Power screen. Since the HC4000 was ceiling mounted I wasn't getting the full 2.4 gain but the Optoma HD80 was ceiling mounted in same spot as well. I would've kept the HD80 but it wouldn't fully fill the screen...throw distance for room was about 5 inches short.

I am now looking at either the refurbished W6000, used Marantz VP15S1, or an Infocus SP8602. I was hoping to spend $1500 or under though and currently only the W6000 meets that criteria. I wanna hear coderguy's impressions once he gets the W6000 compared to the Mitsubishi.

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post #469 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

Thanks for the explanation fleaman, I should have hunted you down Sunday. I was in your neck of the woods!

Well I'm glad you didn't....I left my bulletproof vest at home that day
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post #470 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

I am now looking at either the refurbished W6000, used Marantz VP15S1, or an Infocus SP8602. I was hoping to spend $1500 or under though and currently only the W6000 meets that criteria. I wanna hear coderguy's impressions once he gets the W6000 compared to the Mitsubishi.

Mike

I don't believe the Marantz will be any brighter than the HC4000, might actually be dimmer I think....

But for more sports, less movies, the W6000 should really be fine. Could actually be better than all 3 for that purpose....
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post #471 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

I don't believe the Marantz will be any brighter than the HC4000, might actually be dimmer I think....

But for more sports, less movies, the W6000 should really be fine. Could actually be better than all 3 for that purpose....

Fleaman,

I agree that Marantz is probably not as bright but I don't know if the gain of the screen will make it brighter as it will get the full benefit of High Power screen since it will be table mounted around screen center.

I bought projector from Electronics Expo and called to see if i could return, the girl asked if it was a front projector and I said yes and then she asked if it was defective and I said no. I just got an email with a return authorization # and the instructions for returning and the instructions say front projectors can't be returned unless defective and it also states there is a 20% restocking fee. I kinda thought there might be a restocking fee but 20% is excessive. I don't know why girl didn't mention the restocking fee or even say it can't be returned. I emailed them this time to clarify but it looks like I might just have to make this projector work or sell it at a loss, maybe I will get lucky and they will refund full amount.

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post #472 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Fleaman,

I agree that Marantz is probably not as bright but I don't know if the gain of the screen will make it brighter as it will get the full benefit of High Power screen since it will be table mounted around screen center.

Ah, got it.

As for Electronics Expo: That seems like a standard return policy. The place is legit and they have good prices, I bought my LCD/LED flatscreen from them (they were the cheapest). Obviously their prices would not be as good if they had to absorb the costs from more buyers remorse returns. And this seems to be the case with the deal they had on the HC4000, they were cheaper than anyone else!

I think many of us here get spoiled with some of the overly generous return policies from companies like Amazon, Costco, etc.
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post #473 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 05:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Welp guys, just got an email from Benq saying they ran out of refurbs, err...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Fleaman,
I don't know why girl didn't mention the restocking fee or even say it can't be returned. I emailed them this time to clarify but it looks like I might just have to make this projector work or sell it at a loss, maybe I will get lucky and they will refund full amount.

Mike

Just pack it back up, I bet someone will buy it off you for only a $100 loss in these forums. Maybe someone will see your thing in this thread, if I don't like the Benq as much, I might buy it from you if the condition is perfect, but right now gotta think about what I'm going to do.

The Mits has 892:1 ANSI contrast, I don't think ANSI Contrast is what you are seeing. The Samsung a900b is one of the sharpest projectors ever made, this Mits projector is not in that league for sharpness, the Samsung's MSRP was $12,999. Even the Benq probably isn't quite as sharp, but it should be close. What you might be seeing is probably lower native contrast, but I don't know what your other two projectors NATIVE was.


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post #474 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Welp guys, just got an email from Benq saying they ran out of refurbs and that they can sell me a new one for $1599, err...
I would but the darn sales tax brings it up to around $1730, doesn't seem like that good of a deal anymore.

I have to think about it now. Who designs shopping carts these days with manual inventory, lol.




Just pack it back up, I bet someone will buy it off you for only a $100 loss in these forums. Maybe someone will see your thing in this thread, if I don't like the Benq, I might buy it from you if the condition is perfect, but right now gotta think about what I'm going to do.

The Mits had 892:1 ANSI contrast, I don't think ANSI Contrast is what you are seeing. The Samsung a900b is one of the sharpest projectors ever made, this Mits projector is not in that league for sharpness, the Samsung's MSRP was $12,999. What you might be seeing is probably lower native contrast, but I don't know what your other two projectors NATIVE was.


Yeah, I expect 10-15% restocking fee its just 20% is a little much for 1 hour on projector. I might play with it more this weekend but I just listed it on videogon and I am available for PM's if anyone is interested in it.(is that a rule violation?) I did get spoiled with the Samsung A900B, I sold it because I had lost my job at the time and needed the money. The Optoma HD80 I had previous to that was actually very good but after I moved the room I set it up in was smaller so I couldn't fill the screen or I would've kept it. It's a shame you arent getting the Benq now for a comparison.

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post #475 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post

Yeah, I expect 10-15% restocking fee its just 20% is a little much for 1 hour on projector.
Mike

Well, to be fair, they can't sell the PJ as 'new' anymore. So what would you pay for a used PJ?

10-15% restocking is probably fair for a product that hasn't been opened/used (hence, 'restocking').
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post #476 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Fleaman, when you saw the Benq at Fry's did you get a good viewing of it?


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post #477 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Well, to be fair, they can't sell the PJ as 'new' anymore. So what would you pay for a used PJ?

10-15% restocking is probably fair for a product that hasn't been opened/used (hence, 'restocking').

I agree 10-15% is fair, its the extra 5% I was having a problem with but I understand, they are a business and are trying to make money. Electronics Expo service was good and projector came double-boxed, arrived in perfect condition and in 2 days.

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post #478 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Fleaman, when you saw the Benq at Fry's did you get a good viewing of it?
Did the contrast look questionable or the image look washed out at all?
.

It was difficult to make any assessment.

For one, I couldn't turn all the lights off. I got all the main lights out except for a couple of cans near the screen. The cans were sunken into the ceiling, pointing straight down, so it's possible most of their light was not hitting the screen.

The room was basically the size of a small commercial theater, with a screen to match. It must of been 15+ feet in size. The W6000 was in a PJ booth, behind glass that was dirty (hand/finger print smudges). It was impossible to know how many hrs on the lamp, and/or iris position or mode.

That being said, it was impressive that it could light up that whole screen. It wasn't 'bright', but it was watchable. At that size (and or lamp hrs) the blacks seemed ok. Contrast seemed ok. The movie was that animated owl flick, which I don't have to compare. But it didn't have the pop of a pixar blu ray, and at that screen size, I wouldn't expect it to.

I wouldn't of been happy with that image at home, but it would probably be a completely different situation on a smaller screen.

The other thing that shocked me was the size of the unit I think it's 3x the size of the HC4000.
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post #479 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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@Fleaman: Thanks for the info.

@Others:
The Benq review is suspended until further notice due to Benq being out of stock on the REFURBs...


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #480 of 2860 Old 06-10-2011, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Update:

I am working with Benq to get a formal review unit, but they said they only have a Benq sp890, however, I'll be just as happy to revew any units. The review correspondence person is going to call me on the phone sometime from Benq, I am also going to try to get a Benq w1100 or w1200 for review.

We'll see how it goes. So far they are at least willing to work with me, even though I am not a "professional" reviewer. I'll update everyone once I know more.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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Mitsubishi Hc4000 300 Inch 1080p Front Projector
Gear in this thread - Hc4000 by PriceGrabber.com



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