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post #1891 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Unless there are 2 separate parts of the color wheel spinning independently, what you are saying is impossible.


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post #1892 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:28 PM
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I'll try to make it simpler>

RGBRGB vs.
RGBRGBY

Color wheel at the same speed.

Adding the 'Y' doesn't increase the refresh rate of the RGBRGB segments.
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post #1893 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

If we are keeping the color wheel at 4x with 7 segments, then the CW has to be spinning a tiny bit faster (or the alternative is to be spinning slower), because otherwise it would be at the wrong interval, even when the yellow segment is only additive.

Nope. The DLP processor just divides the time spent on the segments differently, the CW is still spinning at the same RPM, and the refresh rate is still the same.

You gotta think in refresh rates.
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post #1894 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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In my thinking, time spent on the segments still reduces total time of each color being displayed, hence theoretically slightly reducing the RBE (although only by about 15%), because the RBE is from the time that the color wheel repeats a single color over a dark area to mix the colors correctly.

To make 7 segments display at the same interval and speed as 6 segments if the RPM is the same, you'd have to change the size of each segment on the physical wheel (making each one 1/7th smaller), and in that case every color would repeat at the same interval, but the intervals would be slightly shorter on how long each color remained (which is actually what causes RBE anyhow).

You can't make 28 segments = 24 segments in time with the same RPM given each color remains on screen for the same amount of time in the same sequence, the colors have to go by 15% faster or this is impossible. It's impossible because the color wheel is linear, refresh rate or no refresh rate.

I don't even see what the refresh rate has to do with this since we are talking about the size of the color wheel in uneven terms, not an even multiple.

Tomorrow I get the Viewsonic, we shall see my friend!


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post #1895 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:46 PM
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Maybe this will help a little (it's not too in depth unfortunately)>>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital...DLP_projection
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post #1896 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we just disagree. Even multiples RGB, RGBRGB, RGBRGBRGB is one thing, but RGBRGBY is not an even multiple.

Just like 48hz isn't a multiple of 60hz.

I could make a color wheel real fast and demonstrate what I mean by an animation, maybe will do it later.

No matter what you change, you cannot make 7 segments display for the same period of time as 6 segments without changing the RPM's, the intervals would be wrong, so if the RPM is the same, then all you can do is make each segment slightly shorter so the intervals match up, but the time spent on each color becomes slightly shorter (even if yellow is only additive), so that means less RBE in effect. The time spent on each Red, Green, Blue segment is 15% shorter if the RPM's are the same on a 7-segment color wheel. Given the total wheel size has to be the same, but each segment has to fit, and you sliced another piece of the pie out by adding the 7th segment. which is why they have to display 15% shorter lapse on each segment (because the segments are now smaller).

That is where we disagree.


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post #1897 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I think we just disagree. Even multiples RGB, RGBRGB, RGBRGBRGB is one thing,

right, because multiples increases the refresh rate, if the CW speed stays the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

but RGBRGBY is not an even multiple.

The RGB + RGB is a even multiple which doubles the refresh rate over just RGB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Just like 48hz isn't a multiple of 60hz.

This gets into the frame rate of the source. You can increase the refresh rate by playing at a higher frame rate which then needs a higher refresh rate, i.e. 24 fps is doubled to 48hz refresh rate (what you see onscreen), and 30 fps is doubled to 60hz refresh rate. Again, we are dealing with multipliers here which is why you see for instance 120hz refresh rate LCD's, etc. (60hz x2).

The wiki link I provided explains it better.

Bottom line, you can't just increase the refresh rate by say; 20% (or the CW RPM's by 20%), 'cos it won't sync with the frame rate of the source (it would fall in and out of sync, like the rolling bars on an old CRT tv that you adjusted the horizontal position on). You gotta double it.
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post #1898 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 03:37 PM
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Text looks a little jittery, any idea why....
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post #1899 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 03:43 PM
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Senor Flea is correct, but you also have to consider the size of the CW segments which they can and do alter.

Jason
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post #1900 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Senor Flea is correct, but you also have to consider the size of the CW segments which they can and do alter.

Jason

Yeah, they can make just the greens a little larger while keeping the blue/red same size, etc. When adding a yellow segment they can just reduce the size of all the other segments equally or not-equally, all depends on what the manufacture is after.

Brilliant Color, etc.
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post #1901 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Text looks a little jittery, any idea why....

PJ is vibrating. Put your hand on the case and see if you can feel it. Change between high lamp/low lamp to see if it changes.

Unfortunately the dual fans on the same side of this PJ seem to accentuate any minor unbalances in those fans, and they start to resonate in/out.

It's solved by stiffing up your mount if you can (try to make the finger arms that mount to the PJ as short as possible).
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post #1902 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
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Menu seems to be jitter free, i dont think its a fan issue or vibrations...
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post #1903 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Menu seems to be jitter free, i dont think its a fan issue or vibrations...

Oh, in that case the PJ is fine!

You'll have to elaborate more on what text is jittery? And if you're source is a computer or player, etc...
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post #1904 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

right, because multiples increases the refresh rate, if the CW speed stays the same.


The RGB + RGB is a even multiple which doubles the refresh rate over just RGB.

This gets into the frame rate of the source. You can increase the refresh rate by playing at a higher frame rate which then needs a higher refresh rate, i.e. 24 fps is doubled to 48hz refresh rate (what you see onscreen), and 30 fps is doubled to 60hz refresh rate. Again, we are dealing with multipliers here which is why you see for instance 120hz refresh rate LCD's, etc. (60hz x2).

I know what refresh rates are, still this is not what we are talking about. We were talking about segment sizes and color stay time per interval.

Quote:


The RGB + RGB is a even multiple which doubles the refresh rate over just RGB.

The RGBRGB part isn't what is in question, it is the yellow additive affecting the stay time of each color. Again, you cannot keep the stay time per color on a spoke design the same per interval if the color wheel size remains the same and the RPM's stay the same, simple physics laws of rotation, otherwise the wheel would have to change speeds in mid-rotation. The yellow segment adds more light because part of the stay time is spent on yellow in each rotation, it robs the other segments from stay time, which is likely one reason why the Viewsonic is hard to calibrate. That is why a white segment is said to have less saturated colors, you robbed the others from some time to add more light. You cannot add something without taking something away.

It is not that anything changes on a full rotation, I know that, the entire wheel speed pass does remain the same, it is per-segment stay time that change a very fractional amount per color. The 7-segment wheel speed is 7200 rpm. Since the yellow's stay time is 15% of the entire wheel, it should in theory reduce RBE by 15% and make the image brighter, but make it harder to calibrate, as well as cause some side effects in color saturation. The only thing I'm worried about are the saturation side effects.

Is that 15% reduction in RBE noticeable, maybe not.

I am just telling you guys that what you are saying is not what I read how the 7-segment works, according to Viewsonic's own documentation, it reduces RBE compared to the 6-seg because of quicker per-seg passes. I assume the segments are smaller in this design. It is also not what I have read in the forums of how the Samsung 7-segment color wheel works. So far I have read it in 2 places, now give me some time and I'll find some more official documentation that is more certain.

From what I have read, the 7-segment wheel is the equivalent of a compromise between having a white segment and not having one (because it is yellow), and from my understanding most of the color wheels (with a few exceptions) follow the standard designs for each one that TI lays out. There is the Mits hc7800 color wheel, which is a little different for 3d purposes. There are some independent designs, but for the most part, they are designed by TI and not the MFR.


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post #1905 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I know what refresh rates are, still this is not what we are talking about. We were talking about segment sizes and color stay time per interval. I am not sure why you keep re-explaining refresh rates to me. Seriously, the refresh rate explanations are getting a bit much, lol...

Because refresh rates are the only thing on the DLP CW that affect RBE. You can have small segments, big segments, segments of different sizes, but the only thing on the CW design that affects RBE for better or worse is the refresh rate!

And the reason I keep trying to re-explain is that you seem to want to take the conversation away from refresh rates, and since this conversation is only about RBE, it becomes a moot point if you don't want to address or understand about how refresh rates work with DLP CW's and video content.

The question is only this> The viewsonic is a 7 segment wheel. That means it has at least RGBRGB for it's primary colors. The one 7th segment, regardless of what color it is, is not gonna change your refresh rate. I know that somehow you think it is, or could, but it's not.

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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I am just telling you guys that what you are saying is not what I read how the 7-segment works, according to Viewsonic's own documentation, it reduces RBE compared to the 6-seg because of quicker per-seg passes. I assume the segments are smaller in this design. It is also not what I have read in the forums of how the Samsung 7-segment color wheel works. So far I have read it in 2 places, now give me some time and I'll find some more official documentation that is more certain.

That doesn't add up. it's not possible if your gonna display video content (24fps or 30fps) and double that refresh rate to 48hz or 60hz (RGBRGB), tell me how adding 'one' yellow segment increases that refresh rate? The CW RPM's are the same, and the primary color doubler is the same (RGB+RGB).

I can always be wrong as I'm no expert here, but that is my understanding of it. I'm gonna gather that either you interpreted your reading of it wrong, or the viewsonics literature is wrong (wouldn't be the first).

Perhaps the viewsonic is running the CW at a 5x refresh rate? There are Pj's that do that, like the sharp 15000/17000 I think. They achieve that by running the RGBRGB CW (normally 4x refresh) at a higher RPM, at an exact RPM number that would give them 1 extra refresh rate. It's not due to an extra yellow or whatever segment. In fact, as you know the CW segments are fixed, so the only way to 'change/adjust' the refresh rate is to change the CW RPM's, which is exactly what PJ's with adjustable CW refresh speeds do, they change the CW RPM's and adjust the processing speed/frame rate appropriately.
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post #1906 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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RBE is caused from the stay-time of all 3 colors after a full pass. Having the yellow segment reduces it by 15%. The reason they don't just add a bunch of yellow segments to make RBE more invisible is because you'd ruin the color.

The RPM is 7200 still, build a wheel animation, you cannot do it any other way other than decrease the segment pass times.

Since it takes RED exactly the same amount of time to get back to RED, then the color wheel will not stay on RED the same amount of time on a color wheel that is the same RPM but has a NON-RGB segment added to it, it's impossible for it to. Not sure how many time I can re-explain that this isn't changing the refresh rate per rotation, it is changing the saturation time frame per segment. You do not see the yellow as part of the RBE effect, which is where the approximate 15% reduction comes from because it is 1/7th of the entire stay-time on a full color wheel pass.


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post #1907 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 09:58 PM
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Beat it, nerds! :P
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post #1908 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

RBE is caused from the stay-time of all 3 colors after a full pass. Having the yellow segment reduces it by 15%. The reason they don't just add a bunch of yellow segments to make RBE more invisible is because you'd ruin the color.

Then by that logic all they'd have to do to reduce RBE on a typical RGBRGB CW is to reduce the size of the RGBRGB segments down to smaller slivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Not sure how many time I can re-explain that this isn't changing the refresh rate per rotation, it is changing the saturation time frame per segment. You do not see the yellow as part of the RBE effect.

Saturation time doesn't necessarily change the refresh rate. Until you can provide some explanation/tech that shows you can affect RBE with saturation time while keeping the refresh rate unchanged, then I'd start to understand your thinking.

But as it is, I don't.
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post #1909 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Then by that logic all they'd have to do to reduce RBE on a typical RGBRGB CW is to reduce the size of the RGBRGB segments down to smaller slivers.

No, because the yellow segment is not an RGB segment, also there are side effects if you reduce the segment sizes. The Viewsonic has those side effects.

Yellow is not RGB, so it is not the same. It would ruin the image anyways making the segments way too small, but you can change them a little. It is because you are thinking in terms of RGB segments, if you replaced those with white or yellow segments, then yes it would reduce RBE but it would ruin the color.

The Viewsonic is not without side effects from this design, the only good side effect is a 15% reduction in RBE and an increase in brightness. Yellow by its nature allows more light to pass through then any of the RGB segments, the reason yellow is like a white segment but slightly better, is because it allows a bit more light to pass in a different mix that is not as harsh.

The question is how bad are the side effects of a 7-segment design, I'll try to let you guys know tomorrow.


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post #1910 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curttard View Post

Beat it, nerds! :P

Just don't steal my lunch money!


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post #1911 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 10:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It is because you are thinking in terms of RGB segments, if you replaced those with white or yellow segments, then yes it would reduce RBE but it would ruin the color.

.

Of course I'm thinking in terms of the RGB segments, 'cos those are the primary colors that are refreshed to give you a viewable image!! You need those at minimum. That is not the case with yellow (not primary), it's only additive---perhaps to help with the BC algorithm or yellow saturation, etc. Not to mention it's only 1 segment that is refreshed at 1/2 the rate of the other segments.

Anyway, this argument is/has obviously gone in full circles (many times), so I'm out until you produce some evidence to support your theory (other than guessing).
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post #1912 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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That's cool, no worries.

I'm actually going by what others have said on how the segment affects RBE. I'm not guessing myself, as I'm not 100% sure.

Look, I do see your point, your point is that the yellow acts like a light-additive filter and therefore you are still seeing the RED but with more light over top of it, but that's not exactly what happens according to what I read, because what is essentially happening is you are losing contrast and color saturation between spins, and that in itself partly reduces the RBE effect. Once the saturation and contrast are lost from the white/yellow segment, that is how the RBE is reduced, the 15% is a guess, the rest is not a guess, it is based on reading.

Viewsonic also makes the claim. If I could find some more official documentation from TI, I would, but am too lazy to hunt it down since it might not even exist.


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post #1913 of 2857 Old 11-09-2011, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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We can all agree on one thing regardless, I am 95%+ certain that the Mits hc4000 produces a superior image to the Viewsonic.

The Mits is most likely slightly sharper, it has better blacks, slightly better color, and the scaling and motion algorithms are better, as well as it just has more features.

That said, the Mits does not come with a carrying case and speakers for half price with a best mode of 1500+ lumens.
This projector is going to be my portable HT and possibly alternate room projector.

You gotta admit, that's one heck of a deal unless this Viewsonic just loses by too big of a margin, and it might, but I'm trying to keep positive here. Should find out within 24 hours or so.


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post #1914 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 05:37 AM
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Beat it, nerds! :P

too funny

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post #1915 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
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Text looks a little jittery, any idea why....

maybe sharpness setting?

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post #1916 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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The viewsonic vs. Mits comparison is less than 12 hours away, just waiting on Fedex. Feels like I'm about to play in a playoffs game even though I'm not a sports fan, but the superbowl will be the Mits vs. the JVC, heh. The Mits is favored vs. the Viewsonic at least 50-10.


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post #1917 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Oh, in that case the PJ is fine!

You'll have to elaborate more on what text is jittery? And if you're source is a computer or player, etc...

I was watching Avatar and the subtitles were a little jittery, could be my 68.00 Vizio BR player LOL.....yes, $68.00

.... and after a firmware update the drawer opens when the button is hit LOL, not five minutes later
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post #1918 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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I had a player like that before, wait 2 minutes (literally) for the door to open.

Sometimes I wasn't sure if it received the remote's IR, so I'd hit the button again. So what would happen is, the drawer opens, and then when I'm finally ready to grab the disc, it closes before I can grab it, talk about frustrating.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
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**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #1919 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 08:00 AM
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I just want to add to this thread. I never post because you just can't have an open minded conversation on this site sometimes! But I will say this thanks for all the information on this projector. From the guys who know what they are talking about. I ordered one from newegg on Friday during there promotion. It arrived yesterday and all I'm going to say is this thing is excellent in it's class for the price. I can't think of a movie Theater I've been in that throws a better picture then this thing at all! All the issue or problems that are talked about like uniformity on edges don't see em. I'm not RBE sensitive! Blacks levels are really good I don't understand what people compare the levels to? Could they be intergalactic deep space black to make this a excellent projector not just a great one yes! But for the money there really good blacks not bad enough to break the deal to jump up 2-3x in cost for a different projector. If you need a great projector at a even better price. I'm coming from an Infocus X1. So my jaw hit the floor when the pic was displayed on the 4000. I couldn't believe what I have been missing for so long on front projectors. If your on the fence and catch this thing for a good deal your not a RBE siss....I mean sensitive go for it take the free fall plunge. Let your melons hang and get this baby. Also take this throw offset into account. I don't know how I miscalculated. But I'll figure it out you can't really go wrong with this properly set up it's that good. Now I need a new receiver to pair up with this thing if anybody has any recommendations. Or can point me in the right direction with this that will gladly be
appreciated. I need HDMI connects old receiver doesn't have any. I just want one that works it is scarce today to buy receivers without them being so faulty. I'm trying to keep the price low on that as well under $500. But have some power a good sound for music and movies. I have klipsch synergy speakers SF2 SC SS SB 7 of them I just want really good quality audio. I have been eying the onkyo HT RC370. I'm just really trying to see what others might suggest. Sorry for being off topic here!
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post #1920 of 2857 Old 11-10-2011, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kris b bills View Post

I just want to add to this thread. I never post because you just can't have an open minded conversation on this site sometimes! But I will say this thanks for all the information on this projector. From the guys who know what they are talking about. I ordered one from newegg on Friday during there promotion. It arrived yesterday and all I'm going to say is this thing is excellent in it's class for the price. I can't think of a movie Theater I've been in that throws a better picture then this thing at all! All the issue or problems that are talked about like uniformity on edges don't see em. I'm not RBE sensitive! Blacks levels are really good I don't understand what people compare the levels to? Could they be intergalactic deep space black to make this a excellent projector not just a great one yes! But for the money there really good blacks not bad enough to break the deal to jump up 2-3x in cost for a different projector. If you need a great projector at a even better price. I'm coming from an Infocus X1. So my jaw hit the floor when the pic was displayed on the 4000. I couldn't believe what I have been missing for so long on front projectors. If your on the fence and catch this thing for a good deal your not a RBE siss....I mean sensitive go for it take the free fall plunge. Let your melons hang and get this baby. Also take this throw offset into account. I don't know how I miss calculated. But I'll figure it out you can't really go wrong with this properly set up it's that good.


WELCOME and congrats!!!

yeah we are pretty laid back in this thread, everyone has a different perspective and pet peeves, but we try to be respectful and have discussion and answer questions...in the end it is supposed to be fun and enjoyable hobby...most here love the projector and agree that it is the best bang for your buck that you can get, just amazing picture for its price point....

Please hang around and provide your thoughts after watching more content...could help anyone thinking of taking the plunge

War Eagle!!!
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