OPTOMA ML500 LED 1280x800 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medisyn View Post

Did anybody get a chance to play games on this pj yet? I am wondering how black ops would look on it.

My ML500 use is about 75% gaming on Xbox 360 and the rest of the time I am watching movies or TV Shows. It's been awesome for gaming so far. I have been playing a lot of Deus Ex which is a very dark game so I have had to make sure my light control is in check but it looks fantastic. I have also been playing lots of arcade games. Super Meat Boy is an XBLA platformer known for its difficulty, so I used it as a benchmark test if:

a) going from a 37" gaming display to 100" would make my performance better or worse

b) if I could feel any input lag

Results are that the change in size seems to have had no effect on my skill and that I can not detect any lag. If there was any significant amount of lag, it should be easily detectable in SMB, however I would still like to perform a real lag test to get the exact number.

On an unrelated note, I am now noticing pretty severe warm-up focus issues, similar to what is described in the Qumi thread. Ever since ceiling mounting it, it is very very blurry when I first turn it on, until it warms up in about 10 minutes. If I focus when I turn it on, it is of course out of focus when it warms up. I am using it in normal mode, not eco.

I am thinking I either didnt notice this at first, because I was frequently adjusting the pj, or this problem is attributed to my apartment being colder than when I first got it. Either way, very annoying
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post #362 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 04:36 PM
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Has it been confirmed if the lens is platic or glass?
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post #363 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 05:30 PM
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Quote:


On an unrelated note, I am now noticing pretty severe warm-up focus issues, similar to what is described in the Qumi thread. Ever since ceiling mounting it, it is very very blurry when I first turn it on, until it warms up in about 10 minutes. If I focus when I turn it on, it is of course out of focus when it warms up. I am using it in normal mode, not eco.

Interesting - as I stated earlier in this thread, I am having the same problem - also ceiling mounted. Only difference is I am running mine in eco mode.

Quote:


Has it been confirmed if the lens is platic or glass?

Most likely plastic and it has terrible chromatic aberration...
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post #364 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 07:27 PM
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I would be happy if they would just build a basic frame where you have all the light sources in puts and sockets for the mother board, mother boards, fans, lens, drivers, and all you have to do if order the LED chips and DLP chips and put it together yourself.
Hey SIMS ? RONCO ? got a built it yourself model that people can put together themselves for under $ 5000 ? $ 2000 ?
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post #365 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altdelete47 View Post

My ML500 use is about 75% gaming on Xbox 360 and the rest of the time I am watching movies or TV Shows. It's been awesome for gaming so far. I have been playing a lot of Deus Ex which is a very dark game so I have had to make sure my light control is in check but it looks fantastic. I have also been playing lots of arcade games. Super Meat Boy is an XBLA platformer known for its difficulty, so I used it as a benchmark test if:

a) going from a 37" gaming display to 100" would make my performance better or worse

b) if I could feel any input lag

Results are that the change in size seems to have had no effect on my skill and that I can not detect any lag. If there was any significant amount of lag, it should be easily detectable in SMB, however I would still like to perform a real lag test to get the exact number.

On an unrelated note, I am now noticing pretty severe warm-up focus issues, similar to what is described in the Qumi thread. Ever since ceiling mounting it, it is very very blurry when I first turn it on, until it warms up in about 10 minutes. If I focus when I turn it on, it is of course out of focus when it warms up. I am using it in normal mode, not eco.

I am thinking I either didnt notice this at first, because I was frequently adjusting the pj, or this problem is attributed to my apartment being colder than when I first got it. Either way, very annoying

Ah, thanks for letting me know. I was thinking of playing Dues Ex on it if I bought one. Damn this projector has the focus issue too? I don't know much about projectors, but is this something normal or a real defect?
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post #366 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medisyn View Post

Ah, thanks for letting me know. I was thinking of playing Dues Ex on it if I bought one. Damn this projector has the focus issue too? I don't know much about projectors, but is this something normal or a real defect?

If the lens is made of plastic....and the internal temperatures are pretty warm.....then it's likely to be a result of normal expansion.
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post #367 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

For non pico FP, the problem is not availability or quality, but price (for some). SIM2 carries a couple of them (Mico) that sell in the mid to high teens. AVS sells the highly regarded TruVue Vango, which shares some of the design of the SIM2, but includes improvements made by Vango. The Vango sells for ~$10K.

From a market perspective, only a select number of consumers understand and are willing to pay huge amounts of money for a LED projector that have lower paper specs.

When the volume goes from 1K to 100K, you get this huge mark down, but even after the mark down, the specs of a LED projector doesn't make sense to the majority of customers.

Lets be honest, people want LED projectors under $2000, and not $10000
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post #368 of 687 Old 09-26-2011, 11:35 PM
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More like 499??

Its a simple matter of prices go lower as time passes??
Perhaps in a year or two we will see a 399 dollar led 300 lumen 720p pj??

DIY beats store purchased.
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post #369 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 01:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medisyn View Post

Damn this projector has the focus issue too? I don't know much about projectors, but is this something normal or a real defect?

Check out this post over in the three clones topic.

"only the Acer and the NEC vent their exhaust away from the lens area"
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post #370 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Burrows View Post

More like 499??

Its a simple matter of prices go lower as time passes??
Perhaps in a year or two we will see a 399 dollar led 300 lumen 720p pj??

$499 is certainly a price point where it gets interesting in terms of mass market appeal. The total cost of the parts in a projector would need to be well under $200 for it to make sense. Something like the Vivitek Qumi is one represenation of this price point. From my teardown of the Qumi, the total cost of a Qumi is well over $200 in parts. Vivitek are not making enough money to cover the entire lifecycle of the product if they also had to offer a reasonable warranty. They would be in trouble if the return rates became higher than normal
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post #371 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

$499 is certainly a price point where it gets interesting in terms of mass market appeal. The total cost of the parts in a projector would need to be well under $200 for it to make sense. Something like the Vivitek Qumi is one represenation of this price point. From my teardown of the Qumi, the total cost of a Qumi is well over $200 in parts. Vivitek are not making enough money to cover the entire lifecycle of the product if they also had to offer a reasonable warranty. They would be in trouble if the return rates became higher than normal


Perhaps by 2012 or 2013 we will see a point where the parts cost either reaches or?? drops below the 200 dollar point???

In some ways this sounds like the PS3 situation where initial hardware parts costs were 999 dollars and it sold for 600 dollars .

Then as time passed the parts cost went to sub 199 with Sony selling it now for a tiny profit at 249 dollars.

I also remember 40" plasmas going for thousands of dollars and now they go for 499??

DIY beats store purchased.
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post #372 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Burrows View Post

Perhaps by 2012 or 2013 we will see a point where the parts cost either reaches or?? drops below the 200 dollar point???

In some ways this sounds like the PS3 situation where initial hardware parts costs were 999 dollars and it sold for 600 dollars .

Then as time passed the parts cost went to sub 199 with Sony selling it now for a tiny profit at 249 dollars.

I also remember 40" plasmas going for thousands of dollars and now they go for 499??

In both of your examples, there is a market for there, a very large one albeit.

It's unlikely that projectors will ever be more than a niche market.
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post #373 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by PoisonWolf View Post

In both of your examples, there is a market for there, a very large one albeit.

It's unlikely that projectors will ever be more than a niche market.

Projectors are one of the last mainsteam technologies that almost everyone has seen before, but probably wouldn't buy because of higher prices. The goal for some in the industry is to get the price point low enough so they become mainstream

I think a good target to get people to buy LED projectors would be

1. For the pocket projector segment, ie. 100~500 lumens, the target could be $2 per real ANSI lumens after calibration. ie. Qumi is around 100 ANSI lumens, so you pay $200 for it. The Optoma ML500 is around 330 lumens so you pay $660 for it.

2. For the Pico segment, ie. under 100 lumens, the target would be $4 per real ANSI lumen. ie Something like the 80 lumen Optoma PK-320 that will be released next month should retail for around $320, the older Optoma PK-301 which is 50 lumens should retail for $200

Once you get to these price points, especially the Pico projectors, the risk of owning a projector starts to not matter and the consumer could spent $200 on a projector without telling their wife about it

If they don't like the projector, they give the projector to their kids so they can play games on it. Happy ending for everyone
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post #374 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 07:08 AM
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"only the Acer and the NEC vent their exhaust away from the lens area"

That is not true. As I posted earlier in this post and I am sure the other owners can confirm, the exhaust is not by the lens on the ML500 either.
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post #375 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Burrows View Post

More like 499??

Its a simple matter of prices go lower as time passes??
Perhaps in a year or two we will see a 399 dollar led 300 lumen 720p pj??

if you get what you pay for, then I rater pay more
720p, 400 lumen, glass optic, noise below 26db. made of quality components
not the current crap which will burn out long before the advertised led life
I wounder if it isn't the bargain hunter mentality that leaves us with 2 options
only" the insane expensive, and cant get cheap enough

in a way I'm offtopic since these projectors are for portable powerpoint presentations, not home cinema.
guess its just a matter of time before someone breaks the ice and makes suitable product for home cinema.
in the meantime regular bulb seems much better value for HT
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post #376 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jartanyon View Post


That is not true. As I posted earlier in this post and I am sure the other owners can confirm, the exhaust is not by the lens on the ML500 either.

If indeed this is true, that the exhaust system between the US retail unit and the ZOL.com is different. Then I wonder how much weight do all those numbers carry from the ZOL reviews???

On another note, the startup focus issues! Do all owners of the Optoma experience this? Or is it only a select few?
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post #377 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jartanyon View Post

That is not true. As I posted earlier in this post and I am sure the other owners can confirm, the exhaust is not by the lens on the ML500 either.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jartanyon >>> ZOL.com stated that these clone LED pjs have two exhaust ports and if you go to page four of the thread "the three LED clones" you'll see thermal imaging pics for all four pjs clearly showing the vents, one next to lens and the other on the left side of case as seen from the front.
Perhaps you didn't notice the front port next to lens as venting much hot air because it exhausts less of it than the other port, which is located exactly across the air INtake port placed on the right side of these pjs ?
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post #378 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

Projectors are one of the last mainsteam technologies that almost everyone has seen before, but probably wouldn't buy because of higher prices. The goal for some in the industry is to get the price point low enough so they become mainstream

I think a good target to get people to buy LED projectors would be

1. For the pocket projector segment, ie. 100~500 lumens, the target could be $2 per real ANSI lumens after calibration. ie. Qumi is around 100 ANSI lumens, so you pay $200 for it. The Optoma ML500 is around 330 lumens so you pay $660 for it.

2. For the Pico segment, ie. under 100 lumens, the target would be $4 per real ANSI lumen. ie Something like the 80 lumen Optoma PK-320 that will be released next month should retail for around $320, the older Optoma PK-301 which is 50 lumens should retail for $200

Once you get to these price points, especially the Pico projectors, the risk of owning a projector starts to not matter and the consumer could spent $200 on a projector without telling their wife about it

If they don't like the projector, they give the projector to their kids so they can play games on it. Happy ending for everyone

Agreed.

And more units sold gives pj producers time to work out the kinks.
And a single kid getting a led 720p pj as a gift leads to other kids asking for that same cool item that tends to grow the market.

If a budget led pj only lasts i.e. five years then for example I will get a Qumi in 2011 then turn around and in 2012 sell it for what I paid for it(I live in Mexico) then get a 2012 Qumi thats a bit improved.

I figure by 2013 there will be 500 lumen led pj at 499 with better optics, lower noise fan levels, better image since the kinks are worked out with Manufacturers learning from production runs.

DIY beats store purchased.
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post #379 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

If indeed this is true, that the exhaust system between the US retail unit and the ZOL.com is different. Then I wonder how much weight do all those numbers carry from the ZOL reviews???

On another note, the startup focus issues! Do all owners of the Optoma experience this? Or is it only a select few?

I have just bought the ML500 from a US website (I live in Australia). I can confirm that the air intake is exactly like that diagram. It pulls air in from the front and left side and the exhaust is at the back right side. I have left the projector running for about ten hours at a time and it remains very cool. I have not experienced any focus issues but Mine is not ceiling mounted. And for the record... there is no real issue with noise level especially if you have a decent sound system set up. I can't hear mine sitting 1 meter away while watching a movie.

Hope that helps...
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post #380 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donov View Post


I have just bought the ML500 from a US website (I live in Australia). I can confirm that the air intake is exactly like that diagram. It pulls air in from the front and left side and the exhaust is at the back right side. I have left the projector running for about ten hours at a time and it remains very cool. I have not experienced any focus issues but Mine is not ceiling mounted. And for the record... there is no real issue with noise level especially if you have a decent sound system set up. I can't hear mine sitting 1 meter away while watching a movie.

Hope that helps...

I never hear mines either. At first I did, but I never really heard a projector before, but after a couple of days, I guess I got used to it
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post #381 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:25 PM
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Hey All

I saw a lot of questions about temp and a possible focus issue. I have thermal imaging @ work BUT is too bulky to bring home (older style) so I brought this home http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/ther....htm?PID=56089 specs can be read. I put a straw on the end so all measurements were taken @ 3 inches (small spot size).

Where a picture is worth a 1,000 words I'll post this. all temp readings are in C and I used the TP test (toilet paper test, IN/OUT)

Focus?? I can't state, but I am now questioning (when turned on tonight it was out of focus)

regardless here is the picture
LL
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post #382 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:47 PM
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Ah yes, I was going to suggest the ol' toilet paper test. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm still curious if you affected a repair on your old projector and if you pinpointed the failure as to whether it was due to a loose connection or failure of the LED?
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post #383 of 687 Old 09-27-2011, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afineman View Post

Hey All

I saw a lot of questions about temp and a possible focus issue. I have thermal impinging @ work BUT is too bulky to bring home (older style) so I brought this home http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/ther....htm?PID=56089 specs can be read. I put a straw on the end so all measurements were taken @ 3 inches (small spot size).

Where a picture is worth a 1,000 words I'll post this. all temp readings are in C and I used the TP test (toilet paper test, IN/OUT)

Focus?? I can't state, but I am now questioning (when turned on tonight it was out of focus)

regardless here is the picture

Many thanks for the info and effort afineman! So I guess this confirms that the ZOL.com site was on the right track.
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post #384 of 687 Old 09-28-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afineman View Post

Hey All

I saw a lot of questions about temp and a possible focus issue. I have thermal impinging @ work BUT is too bulky to bring home (older style) so I brought this home http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/ther....htm?PID=56089 specs can be read. I put a straw on the end so all measurements were taken @ 3 inches (small spot size).

Where a picture is worth a 1,000 words I'll post this. all temp readings are in C and I used the TP test (toilet paper test, IN/OUT)

Focus?? I can't state, but I am now questioning (when turned on tonight it was out of focus)

regardless here is the picture

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
afineman >>>Thanks for the picture depicting air intake/exhaust ports and temperature readings, very informative.
Your readings confirm what ZOl.com found out as the hottest port being the one next to lens, albeit 48 degrees Celsius, which is considered rather low for any pj; If you put your hand in front of it, could you feel the difference in temperature between exhaust ports ?
So, facing the front of the Optoma ML500 where the lens is, according to your diagram there is one INtake port on the front left corner, which from pictures i've seen is covered with a filter, but is there an air intake fan behind that filter ?
I know there is a fan on the Intake port on the right side of pj toward its rear, but is that the only fan you can see inside the pj ?
Also, according to your diagram, am i correct in assuming that the left side of pj and a good chunk of its rear left side functions as an exhaust "area", which by description would dissipate more hot air than a smaller vent could ?
Tx....
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post #385 of 687 Old 09-28-2011, 03:35 PM
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Guys.

I was measuring 68c near the lens. My ambient was 25. All my temps were hotter than the image posted above.

I was not running Eco mode, I was using ?max? Settings or bright mode.

And don't ask, all ports were open and nothing for 2' on all sides(feet). I don't think ambient of 25c is too much.

Not ceiling mounted, just on a desk.

After some time, 1 hour, I was getting worried so I changed from bright to PIC mode, and changed the lens to Eco mode.

That made the temps closer to the image above. But it Was lot harder to watch the large 8'x10 image, too dark.

Oh well, I'm just happy it can play any video format I throw at it.

But disappointed with the PDF support. Some files do not display correctly.
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post #386 of 687 Old 09-28-2011, 04:08 PM
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So, your measurement of 68 degrees Celsius on port near lens is right in line with ZOL.com measurement of 66 degrees and i imagine that afineman measured his Optoma ML500 running in ECO mode, which should run considerably cooler and would account for his lower readings.
Nice to see all these figures re-confirmed by multiple sources; Now, if we could only find out whether or not a temperature reading of 68 degrees right next to a lens could affect it to the point of causing expansion/contraction of its material ?
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post #387 of 687 Old 09-28-2011, 06:43 PM
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I am not sure what temperatures are needed to affect the lens for focusing. I have not been able to see a big difference. If any it would be superficial and not of concern. But note: it's a plastic lens, I can asertain this from taping on it. I think I'm right?

I would imagine if we ceiling mount (hot air rises) then yes it would heat up more and thus may cause it.

I have power measurements

Eco mode off. Idle in main menu after power on.
Brite: 105 watts
PC: 77 watts
Cinema: 65 watts
Photo: 68 watts
User: 77 watts

Eco mode on, idle in main menu screen.
Brite: 83 watts
PC: 53 watts
Cinema: 36 watts
Photo: 37 watts
User: 54 watts

Edit:
In both modes:
Power off cool down: 13 watts
Power off standby: 4 watts
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post #388 of 687 Old 09-28-2011, 11:44 PM
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http://detail.zol.com.cn/picture_ind...x7193882.shtml
http://detail.zol.com.cn/picture_ind...x7193333.shtml
Quote:


The L50W has a filter-free design

http://www.projectorcentral.com/NEC-L50W.htm
(intetresting they have the spec sheet up at pj central for the nec)

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post #389 of 687 Old 09-29-2011, 04:09 AM
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Hey guys

I've been prowling these forums since february checking almost everyday for some more comments on the qumi and I'm glad I've waited. Now have my eyes set on this Optoma or the Acer, if only for the audio out and usb wifi options.

All your comments have been so helpful I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their opinions. My only projector I have ever had is a 10 lumen Microvision Showwx which I still use as a TV everyday.
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post #390 of 687 Old 09-29-2011, 04:10 AM
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..(with the lights turned down pretty low obviously) and I actually find that acceptable most of the time on a 40" screen size directly into a white wall so I know I'm going to be blown away by a 500 lumen LED I'll just miss the ability to never have to focus the projector

Anyway, there's a new video on you tube by a user named w8w8w888 that really confirms this pj (or the acer) is the one for me, does a nice screen size comparison, shows the pj with lights on and off and also gives an impression of the units noise level. hope you find it helpful. Maybe someone can post a link to it as this my first post..

Cheers
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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Optoma , Optoma Projectors , Optoma Ml500 Led Projector
Gear in this thread - Ml500 by PriceGrabber.com

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