OPTOMA ML500 LED 1280x800 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #91 of 688 Old 07-20-2011, 07:01 PM
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

no you can drive them faster than any lcd or lcos.

then why don't they......
Bsims2719 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #92 of 688 Old 07-20-2011, 08:32 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MCaugusto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BOSTON --- MA ---
Posts: 1,233
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

It took a week but I finally received an answer from Luminus regarding the "color cycling speed" of their LEDs. After being bounced to Asia the final email was from Massachusetts.

The response from Luminus:

To answer your question: LEDs used in projection systems are driven at a frequency set by the system. The LEDs themselves can be driven at higher frequencies.



So, kind of ambiguous but my interpretation of this is that "yes, the pulse rate is variable and set by the manufacturer."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------But that was of no help to us with such a simple question as to which LED chipset is being used in each projector !
Gee, thanks techsupport@Luminus.com, you were of much help; To paraphrase Homer Simpson, DUH !
MCaugusto is online now  
post #93 of 688 Old 07-20-2011, 09:19 PM
Advanced Member
 
Sisyphus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

then why don't they......

I really don't know. There are companies like Sharp that seem to understand faster color wheel speeds are desirable for home theater. The Sharp DT500/510/3000/3100/12000/15000/17000 all had nice 5x speed wheels.

Either manufacturers run color wheels slower to minimize component failure or there is just a general consensus that 4x speed wheels are acceptable. Which, for a majority of people this seems to be the case...except for us.

I'm guessing this philosophy is still in effect with LEDs; they haven't realized those rules no longer apply. LEDs can be pulsed at least at 6x speeds or higher with no effect on component life, pretty much eliminate rainbows, and make everyone happy.

Considering all the reports that the Vivitek Qumi is cycling the LEDs at 4x or possibly slower speeds with visible rainbows, I'm really hoping the new Acer K12 or K330 will be like the current Acer K11 that seems to be around 6x speed with few-to-no rainbows.
Sisyphus is offline  
post #94 of 688 Old 07-20-2011, 10:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
action_jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Here are a few possible reasons that manufacturers are not setting the pulse rates higher.

1. New algorithm required to calculate the faster pulse rate, easier to just use the old 4x algorithm.

2. Pulse rate may effect lumen output. There may be a sweet spot with these LEDs. It is up to the projector manufacturer to come up with fastest pulse rate, while not sacrificing lumen output.

3. The speed of the DLP chip itself is a limiting factor. It is not capable of keeping up with the speed of the LEDs. I believe it should be able to go much faster than what we are seeing with the Qumi.

I am guessing number 2, need more data to come to a definite conclusion. Any other Ideas?

Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector____Paradigm 9SE MK II Main LR
Yamaha RX-V667 AVR_______________Paradigm CC-270 V.3 Center
Emotiva UPA-5 Amplifier______________Dual Stereo Integrity 18" Infinite Baffle
Sony BDP-570 Blu Ray_______________DIY Sound Group Volt 10
action_jackson is online now  
post #95 of 688 Old 07-21-2011, 05:20 AM
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post

Here are a few possible reasons that manufacturers are not setting the pulse rates higher.

1. New algorithm required to calculate the faster pulse rate, easier to just use the old 4x algorithm.

2. Pulse rate may effect lumen output. There may be a sweet spot with these LEDs. It is up to the projector manufacturer to come up with fastest pulse rate, while not sacrificing lumen output.

3. The speed of the DLP chip itself is a limiting factor. It is not capable of keeping up with the speed of the LEDs. I believe it should be able to go much faster than what we are seeing with the Qumi.

I am guessing number 2, need more data to come to a definite conclusion. Any other Ideas?

There must be an artifact created from running the DLP chip faster. I can remember many years back that there was a manufacturer that let you choose (setting in the menu) between a faster or slower wheel speed. Now the question is why. Why would you ever want to run slower if it's capable of running faster.

The disappointing thing is that this technology was even advertised as eliminating "color fringing" for the supposedly 2 percent of the population that experiences this problem. However I think we all know that the true number is more like a third of the population. When you add in headaches or eyestrain it's probably more like half.
Bsims2719 is offline  
post #96 of 688 Old 07-21-2011, 08:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
Sisyphus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post

Here are a few possible reasons that manufacturers are not setting the pulse rates higher.

2. Pulse rate may effect lumen output. There may be a sweet spot with these LEDs. It is up to the projector manufacturer to come up with fastest pulse rate, while not sacrificing lumen output.

I'm pretty sure I read the same article you did relating pulse rate to perceived brightness. However, in the article the pulse rate was very low yielding something like a 20hz refresh rate...which would produce significant flicker. This ideal is outside the minimum refresh rate for a display of 60hz, so I don't think this approach is being used here. Here is the article:
http://www.ledweekly.com/2008-03/technology/5033.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

There must be an artifact created from running the DLP chip faster. I can remember many years back that there was a manufacturer that let you choose (setting in the menu) between a faster or slower wheel speed. Now the question is why. Why would you ever want to run slower if it's capable of running faster.

I remember reading something that if the color wheel speed and DLP chip are sampling too fast, this can result in visible dithering (dithering should not be noticeable). Some of the older 720p DLPs you could actually see a sort of "tiling" or banding effect in movies with fast motion.

This may have been because the DLP chip was not quite fast enough to keep up with the color wheel, and during a scene with fast motion, your visual processing is faster, so you happen to see the dithering that you ordinarily wouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post

3. The speed of the DLP chip itself is a limiting factor. It is not capable of keeping up with the speed of the LEDs. I believe it should be able to go much faster than what we are seeing with the Qumi.

You have a good point. It is a possibility these new pico DLP chips are not fast enough for the LEDs to be pulsed faster without visible dithering. I guess we'll just have to wait for the Optoma, Viewsonic, or Acer to see if there is any variation.
Sisyphus is offline  
post #97 of 688 Old 07-21-2011, 08:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Raul GS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 24
The theory behind the slower color wheel is that it allowed for better colors. The DLP chip is FAR faster than a 6X or for that matter 12X color wheel. The decision should have nothing to do with chip speed.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence, than it does knowledge. Charles Darwin
Raul GS is offline  
post #98 of 688 Old 07-22-2011, 08:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raul GS View Post

The theory behind the slower color wheel is that it allowed for better colors. The DLP chip is FAR faster than a 6X or for that matter 12X color wheel. The decision should have nothing to do with chip speed.

So assuming you could instantly double the a color wheel speed form 3x to 6x why would that degrade the colors?
Bsims2719 is offline  
post #99 of 688 Old 07-22-2011, 09:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
action_jackson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 769
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

I'm pretty sure I read the same article you did relating pulse rate to perceived brightness. However, in the article the pulse rate was very low yielding something like a 20hz refresh rate...which would produce significant flicker. This ideal is outside the minimum refresh rate for a display of 60hz, so I don't think this approach is being used here. Here is the article:
http://www.ledweekly.com/2008-03/technology/5033.html


I was actually studying the basics of this in physics class last semester. Although I only briefly touched the subject I figured it might have something to do with it. This article actually states a 60hz refresh rate was used to get double the perceived light output. 60hz is equal to a single speed color wheel, so would not be the greatest speed for projection. I just wonder how the perceived light output is affected by the increase of speed past 240hz, or 4x color wheel speed?

Epson Home Cinema 3010 Projector____Paradigm 9SE MK II Main LR
Yamaha RX-V667 AVR_______________Paradigm CC-270 V.3 Center
Emotiva UPA-5 Amplifier______________Dual Stereo Integrity 18" Infinite Baffle
Sony BDP-570 Blu Ray_______________DIY Sound Group Volt 10
action_jackson is online now  
post #100 of 688 Old 07-24-2011, 05:09 AM
Senior Member
 
Raine0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDY9H7riZ0
Raine0 is offline  
post #101 of 688 Old 07-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Advanced Member
 
Amber Ale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 514
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDY9H7riZ0

Hope it has a better focus than the Qumi. Just have to wait and see....
Amber Ale is offline  
post #102 of 688 Old 07-27-2011, 06:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eat meat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
any one know what this will go for?I herard over 800$

__________________________________________
Are you classified as human? Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

(fifth element)
__________________________________________
eat meat is offline  
post #103 of 688 Old 07-27-2011, 06:08 PM
Senior Member
 
Raine0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 284
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Optoma are supposedly shipping out their new line of 3d dlp pjs in the next few weeks. But no word about the ML500, besides that it's being delayed from September to October. Nice!
Raine0 is offline  
post #104 of 688 Old 07-27-2011, 11:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Merillville, IN 46410
Posts: 3,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

Optoma are supposedly shipping out their new line of 3d dlp pjs in the next few weeks. But no word about the ML500, besides that it's being delayed from September to October. Nice!

Maybe they are trying to add features like 3D, hopefully there is a good reason for the day. It was August and now its October
blee0120 is online now  
post #105 of 688 Old 07-28-2011, 01:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
eat meat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
one of the clones has 3d the acer k330

__________________________________________
Are you classified as human? Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

(fifth element)
__________________________________________
eat meat is offline  
post #106 of 688 Old 08-08-2011, 04:37 AM
Member
 
Wave_Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Israel, Pardess Hanna
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

one of the clones has 3d the acer k330

Well, the 3D will be of course using dlp link.
sill, I don't know why they can't implement the technology of 3d LED TVs? by pushing a button?
Wave_Runner is offline  
post #107 of 688 Old 08-08-2011, 12:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eat meat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
no emmiter -dlp link is cheap and easy

__________________________________________
Are you classified as human? Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

(fifth element)
__________________________________________
eat meat is offline  
post #108 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 10:15 AM
AVS Special Member
 
blee0120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Merillville, IN 46410
Posts: 3,702
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 106 Post(s)
Liked: 74
The User's Manual is up, I can not upload it but it can be viewed at http://www.optomausa.com/products/detail/ML500
blee0120 is online now  
post #109 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 11:32 AM
Advanced Member
 
DLPProjectorfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 791
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 34
Thank you for the information.
If and when I do order one of these clone projectors I will also get a HDMI port protector.
The port on my PS3 and LG projector is ok for now, but, I can see how these HDMI ports can get damaged by either plugging in and unplugging, or if you have the move the projector or HDMI cord around.
DLPProjectorfan is offline  
post #110 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Wacky 120hz firmware at it again.

Where these half baked reference designs come from? TI wants to ensure bulbs won't go out of fashion ?

-Incredible...
gain3 is offline  
post #111 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 01:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JackB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Pauma Valley, CA USA
Posts: 1,803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by gain3 View Post

Wacky 120hz firmware at it again.

Where these half baked reference designs come from? TI wants to ensure bulbs won't go out of fashion ?

-Incredible...

Please tell us again why 120Hz is wacky. This is a real question.

Jack
JackB is offline  
post #112 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 02:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
eat meat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
they are only out puting 1024x768 thru vga only in 120hz for 3d

__________________________________________
Are you classified as human? Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

(fifth element)
__________________________________________
eat meat is offline  
post #113 of 688 Old 08-19-2011, 09:56 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well its practically useless. We got our 3D gimmick, & done. It's just incredible, and Casio's mishandling of 120hz is frighteningly similar .
gain3 is offline  
post #114 of 688 Old 08-24-2011, 05:29 AM
Member
 
Wave_Runner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Israel, Pardess Hanna
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

any one know what this will go for?I herard over 800$

I saw the optoma ML500 today in B&H costing $669.
maybe pre order price?...
Wave_Runner is offline  
post #115 of 688 Old 08-24-2011, 08:34 AM
Member
 
anomaly123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 64
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by gain3 View Post

Wacky 120hz firmware at it again.

Where these half baked reference designs come from? TI wants to ensure bulbs won't go out of fashion ?

-Incredible...

Proper 3D is incredibly hard to implement CHEAPLY at this time because the consumer electronics people (Sony, Samsung, etc) are doing their own thing and they all have proprietary TV IC chipsets not available to other manufacturers. The computer people (Nvidia, etc) are also doing their own thing with proprietary methods.

The projector market is a tiny market compared to LCD TVs, with something like a 25:1 ratio between shipping LCDs and Projectors, therefore the "cool" stuff takes times to filter down into lesser markets. This of course doesn't bother the ultra high end projector people. These guys can write their own FPGAs at $100~$150 a pop to implement a video processor to enable proper 3D via whatever means they see fit and their customers are willing to take the blow of whatever premium is charged.

If you take a look at the Optoma 3DXL, you can get a feel on how much extra a consumer needs to pay to get proper 3D
anomaly123 is offline  
post #116 of 688 Old 08-24-2011, 08:44 AM
Member
 
habakoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

they are only out puting 1024x768 thru vga only in 120hz for 3d

There is a method for getting 1280*800 120Hz signal via VGA. Full description here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20741203
habakoski is offline  
post #117 of 688 Old 08-24-2011, 10:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
eat meat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
thats on the qumi-1280*800 120Hz is one of its 3d resolutions-you can just plug a qumi in a quad bufferd card and run any dvd and skip the rest.
http://www.vivitekusa.com/pdfs/Qumi_DLPLink_Setup.pdf

__________________________________________
Are you classified as human? Negative, I am a meat Popsicle.

(fifth element)
__________________________________________
eat meat is offline  
post #118 of 688 Old 08-24-2011, 10:16 AM
Member
 
seph22's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's available on Adoroma atm for 650$

http://www.adorama.com/OUML500.html?...m_source=gbase

and here for 639$
http://www.focusedtechnology.com/opt...projector.html

B and H getting new shipment next week (they sold out current shipment out of stock)
seph22 is offline  
post #119 of 688 Old 08-28-2011, 10:46 PM
Senior Member
 
3DNewb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
On the Optoma specification page for the ML500 it says "DLPLink 3D capable; Compatible with 3D content at XGA (1024 x 768) and 120Hz through the VGA port; Not Optoma 3D-XL compatible". So if you wanted to use the 3D-XL with the ML500 for 3D gaming/movies via a PS3/XBox/etc.. you'll need a HDMI to VGA adapter with an EDID function such as the HDFury3. HDFury2 may also work. On the product detail page it states "The projector can deliver a 50-inch 3D image with plenty of brightness". I was using the Qumi rated at 300 lumens on a flat white wall at 80" for 3D gaming/movies, dark scenes were tough but otherwise it wasn't bad. It has been mentioned in the Qumi thread that the Qumi only outputs 172 lumens (post #1511)and Vivitek used the PT-39 confirmed thru a tear down of the unit (post #1513). If the ML500 is indeed close to 500 lumens 3D should be pretty good especially on a quality screen. It will be interesting to see which LED chip is actually used in the ML500.
3DNewb is offline  
post #120 of 688 Old 08-28-2011, 10:50 PM
Senior Member
 
3DNewb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For those getting this PJ or a TV with AMD graphic cards here is a PDF Set Up Guide from AMD for gaming/movie playback. http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/AMD_...etup_Guide.pdf Be sure to check for updated versions as well at the AMD site here http://www.amd.com/US/PRODUCTS/TECHN...-it-works.aspx
3DNewb is offline  
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Tags
Optoma , Optoma Projectors , Optoma Ml500 Led Projector
Gear in this thread - Ml500 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off