The Three 1280x800 LED Clones - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 429 Old 09-07-2011, 12:33 PM
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NEC NP-L50W
Supported Video Standards NTSC, NTSC4.43, PAL, PAL-60, PAL-M, PAL-N, SECAM

SD/HD Video Signal Compatibility 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i

PC Signal Compatibility SVGA, XGA, WXGA, WXGA+, SXGA, SXGA+, UXGA

Macintosh Compatibility Yes

Warranty 2-Year Limited Parts and Labor


Optoma ML500
Computer Compatibility UXGA, WXGA, SXGA+, SXGA, XGA, SVGA, VGA Resized; VESA Standards; PC and Macintosh Compatible

Video Compatibility SDTV (480i), EDTV (480p), HDTV (720p, 1080i/p), NTSC/NTSC 4.43, PAL B/G/H/I/M/N 60, SECAM

Warranty 1 Year Limited Parts and Labor

Note: The NEC does not list 1080P signal compatibility?
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post #272 of 429 Old 09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
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most likely forgot to print 1080p. it supports uxga "1600x1200", so 1080p should be a non issue.
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post #273 of 429 Old 09-08-2011, 05:18 AM
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Out of curiousity, being that these clones have no cms and little settings to adjust, is there any need to use a calibration disk on them?
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post #274 of 429 Old 09-08-2011, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0
Out of curiousity, being that these clones have no cms and little settings to adjust, is there any need to use a calibration disk on them?
You can to adjust brightness, contrast, and sharpness
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post #275 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 06:21 AM - Thread Starter
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After some careful consideration i had decided to get the ACER K330 as my "clone" of choice but after downloading its manual i noticed that in the projection ratio table the maximum distance given is 2.4 meters, which would provide an image only 80" diagonal ! What' up with that ? Could it be simply a matter of missing print material and the manual misses the fact that this pj can be used with screens bigger than that ?
If i remember correctly, the manual for the Optoma ML500 lists its maximum screen size as 150" diagonal, which i realize is unrealistic, but at least it doesn't stop at 80" diagonal.
One interesting feature of the ACER K330 is the option under "Settings" for "LED Calibration" which states > "press enter then wait for 10 seconds to finish the white color fine tune process. It helps to adjust LED color performance".
I could be wrong, but it appears that this control alllows the user to periodically re-balance the R/G/B colors to the manufacturer's original specs so that if any individual LED is degrading faster than the others and its color begin to shift, that can be compensated in software.
The Optoma ML500, on the other hand, has an option that allows the owner to keep track of LED usage in hours...
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post #276 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 06:53 AM
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This is exciting, I look forward to hearing your reviews of the unit! Anyone have an idea of a release date for the Acer yet?

On the other hand, I sincerely hope that the upcoming 1080p chips (if they ever go around to making it) aren't also diagonal....cause I would be just...disappointed on so many levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

After some careful consideration i had decided to get the ACER K330 as my "clone" of choice but after downloading its manual i noticed that in the projection ratio table the maximum distance given is 2.4 meters, which would provide an image only 80" diagonal ! What' up with that ? Could it be simply a matter of missing print material and the manual misses the fact that this pj can be used with screens bigger than that ?
If i remember correctly, the manual for the Optoma ML500 lists its maximum screen size as 150" diagonal, which i realize is unrealistic, but at least it doesn't stop at 80" diagonal.
One interesting feature of the ACER K330 is the option under "Settings" for "LED Calibration" which states > "press enter then wait for 10 seconds to finish the white color fine tune process. It helps to adjust LED color performance".
I could be wrong, but it appears that this control alllows the user to periodically re-balance the R/G/B colors to the manufacturer's original specs so that if any individual LED is degrading faster than the others and its color begin to shift, that can be compensated in software.
The Optoma ML500, on the other hand, has an option that allows the owner to keep track of LED usage in hours...

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post #277 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 07:01 AM
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I see also that in the Troubleshooting part of the manual.

Image is out of focus:

Make sure the lens cap is removed.
Adjusts the focus ring on the projector lens.
Make sure the projection screen is within the
required distance of 2.99-7.87 feet (0.91-2.40 meters)
from the projector. Refer to the "How to Get a
Preferred Image Size by Adjusting Distance and
Zoom" section for more information.

Definite deal breaker if that's the case. Let's hope not.
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post #278 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

After some careful consideration i had decided to get the ACER K330 as my "clone" of choice but after downloading its manual i noticed that in the projection ratio table the maximum distance given is 2.4 meters, which would provide an image only 80" diagonal ! What' up with that ? Could it be simply a matter of missing print material and the manual misses the fact that this pj can be used with screens bigger than that ?

I sure do hope (and believe) it's not a limitation. Just look at the Acer K11 manual ( ftp://ftp.acer-euro.com/projector/k1....0_eng_K11.pdf ). It states the same solution for focus problems:

"Make sure the projection screen is within the
required distance of 2.10 - 11.15 feet (0.64 - 2.4
meters) from the projector. Refer to the "How to
Get a Preferred Image Size by Adjusting Distance
and Zoom" section for more information."


The "How to optimize image size and distance" section of the manual is in conflict with this piece of information though:

"Consult the table below to find the optimal image sizes achievable when theprojector is positioned at a desired distance from the screen. Example: If the projector is 3 m from the screen, good image quality is possible for image sizes 71".

I have my Acer K330 preordered and it should be shipping any day now. I'll report what's the deal with focusing.
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post #279 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 09:16 AM
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October the 4th from projectorpoint.co.uk

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post #280 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 10:27 AM
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Lame!! I don't know if I can resist getting the ML500 that long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine0 View Post

Definite deal breaker if that's the case. Let's hope not.

I'm hoping that's just the recommended distance for optimal performance, not an actual focus limit.
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post #281 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 10:41 AM
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The focus-range is probably a technique to avoid out-of-focus issues when you can't get the image to focus right past their "guidelines".

So in a sense...it is kind of a risk cause if you can't even focus a decent 100-inch image, I don't think it's technically covered by warranty if you're out of your return period.

It really depends on how they worded it in the manual, I would imagine.
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post #282 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobcaticus View Post

October the 4th from projectorpoint.co.uk

Bloody hell! I had my preorder there. I guess you have to wait for my user input.
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post #283 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I still think that has to be a misprint; Perhaps some stupid Acer employee in PR decided to be lazy/save money by simply adding the same throw distance specs as found in the ACER K11 owner's manual ? Let's hope that's so because that would be a major disappointment compared to the other clones.
I am surprised that "LED Calibration" feature on the ACER K330 didn't elicit any comments from any of you guys...Am i the only one who thinks that would be a very/very useful feature to have in any pj, let alone one that sells for $650 ?
habakoski >>> Please keep us posted with your impressions of the pj, the more the better !
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post #284 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 06:24 PM
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I'm with you and eagerly awaiting for the first review of this puppy, I'm pretty sure it will live up to be the best of the clones.

So many ideas, so little money!
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post #285 of 429 Old 09-12-2011, 08:00 PM
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best is objective,looks like the brighter pjs have less saturation if I read things right,win(brighter)win(more realistic),the contrast figures dont mean much between these pjs to me.I had a couple of sharpvisions that had more of a contrast difference and it was really hard to tell the diff.YMMV

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post #286 of 429 Old 09-13-2011, 12:41 PM
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These LED projectors do not have HDMI 1.4 and internal player for 3D files SBS/TB mp4/mkv... Wait Christmas and new generation based on PT120 with FullHD and normal 3D support
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post #287 of 429 Old 09-13-2011, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsv View Post

These LED projectors do not have HDMI 1.4 and internal player for 3D files SBS/TB mp4/mkv... Wait Christmas and new generation based on PT120 with FullHD and normal 3D support

I doubt they'd release 1080p so quickly. Knowing the niche industry of LED projectors, they'll want to milk the 1280x800 chipset at least until next August, maybe even until next December.
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post #288 of 429 Old 09-13-2011, 01:41 PM
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there is no 1080p pico and there are plenty fullsize 1080p chip led projectors(21)

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post #289 of 429 Old 09-13-2011, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsv View Post

These LED projectors do not have HDMI 1.4 and internal player for 3D files SBS/TB mp4/mkv... Wait Christmas and new generation based on PT120 with FullHD and normal 3D support

Next christmas, twice the price and noticable bigger, maybe. What you see here is this year's generation and nothing new is coming.
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post #290 of 429 Old 09-13-2011, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsv View Post

These LED projectors do not have HDMI 1.4 and internal player for 3D files SBS/TB mp4/mkv... Wait Christmas and new generation based on PT120 with FullHD and normal 3D support

You could also add the fact that it'll make tea, coffee and the most gorgeous toasted cheese sandwiches for you as well!!!

In short... it ain't gonna happen.
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post #291 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 07:54 AM
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It's odd that the Acer k330 with 500 lumens talks about " up to 80 inch diagonal " while the new Acer C110/C112 with 50 lumens says " up to 100 inch diagonal ".
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post #292 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 10:50 AM
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Recently the Optoma site changed from claiming 120 inches to "Delivering Native WXGA resolution, this projector creates crisp, clear widescreen images of up to 180 inches on most surfaces." http://optomausa.com/products/detail/ML500
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post #293 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3DNewb View Post

Recently the Optoma site changed from claiming 120 inches to "Delivering Native WXGA resolution, this projector creates crisp, clear widescreen images of up to 180 inches on most surfaces." http://optomausa.com/products/detail/ML500

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't the ML500 originally listed for "screens up to 150" diagonal" if i remember correctly, and now this ?
These manufacturers need to get their proverbial "collective ****" together and at least have specifications in their websites corrected and up-to-date.
So, one clone is spec'd at 80" diagonal maximum and the other up to 180"...Yeah, sure !
P.S. : i just checked the NEC website for any news on the NP-L50W and in its latest press release it is stated : 0.45" DLP - 1140 x 912 WXGA native resolution !? Go figure...
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post #294 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wasn't the ML500 originally listed for "screens up to 150" diagonal" if i remember correctly, and now this ?
These manufacturers need to get their proverbial "collective ****" together and at least have specifications in their websites corrected and up-to-date.
So, one clone is spec'd at 80" diagonal maximum and the other up to 180"...Yeah, sure !
P.S. : i just checked the NEC website for any news on the NP-L50W and in its latest press release it is stated : 0.45" DLP - 1140 x 912 WXGA native resolution !? Go figure...

Wow, NEC is brutally honest, the exact spec of the 0.45" WXGA diamond DMD is under strict NDA

I posted the magic number here before:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20832152
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post #295 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post

Wow, NEC is brutally honest, the exact spec of the 0.45" WXGA diamond DMD is under strict NDA

I posted the magic number here before:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post20832152

Wow, I wonder how that works. It's not even 1280x800. I guess this is to allow the mapping of the 1280x800 resolution?
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post #296 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoisonWolf View Post

Wow, I wonder how that works. It's not even 1280x800. I guess this is to allow the mapping of the 1280x800 resolution?

I don't know the exact formatting algorithm, but If I had to guess how TI converts from square to diamond, they would probably use some kind of nearest neighbour algorithm that does some averaging and the algorithm would try to minimize the euclidean distance (difference) between the square array space and diamond array space for each pixel or for a group of pixels

Having an exact matching pixel number isn't necessary as long as the information projected out the lens is approximately "right", or below some threshold difference as there is no way to get 100% exact mathematically when rotating the image space.

In other words, what you see on screen in a 0.45" WXGA Diamond DLP projector is only an approximation to the input.
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post #297 of 429 Old 09-14-2011, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post


I don't know the exact formatting algorithm, but If I had to guess how TI converts from square to diamond, they would probably use some kind of nearest neighbour algorithm that does some averaging and the algorithm would try to minimize the euclidean distance (difference) between the square array space and diamond array space for each pixel or for a group of pixels

Having an exact matching pixel number isn't necessary as long as the information projected out the lens is approximately "right", or below some threshold difference as there is no way to get 100% exact mathematically when rotating the image space.

In other words, what you see on screen in a 0.45" WXGA Diamond DLP projector is only an approximation to the input.

Thanks anomaly! As usual, your posts are useful information!

I guess I look forward to when there is a square 720p chip from TI.
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post #298 of 429 Old 09-15-2011, 05:56 AM - Thread Starter
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anomaly123 >>> Once again, thanks for your input. I clicked on the link you provided concerning the native resolution of these PICO chipsets, which i had originally read but when seeing the figures both you and Ekki were quoting, 960x600, 960x600x2, 1140x912, i figure "these guys are having too much spiked coolaid"; How could it be possible if the manufacturer itself had stated the native resolution as being 1280x800 pixels ?
Now we know better thanks to that "brutally honest" NEC press release and of course to your astute comment on the thread.
So, am i correct in the following assumptions :
LG HX300G - native resolution ~ 3:4 aspect ratio ~ 1024x768 ======= 786.432 pixels
Standard HD native resolution ~ 16:9 aspect ratio ~ 1280x720 ====== 921.600 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET stated native resolution ~ 16:10 ratio ~ 1280x800 = 1.024.000 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET true native resolution ~ 5:4 ratio ~ 1140x912 ==== 1.039.680 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET pixel count ~ 16:9 ratio material ~ 1140x641 ===== 730.740 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET pixel count ~ 3:4 ratio material ~ 1140x854 ? ===== 973.560 pixels
So apparently the true aspect ratio of the HD PICO chipset is 5:4 and NOT 16:10 as we were led to believe; Now i wonder, if i am planning on getting a new screen to be used with one of these pjs as well as with different pjs in the future, what would be the recommended screen ratio ?
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post #299 of 429 Old 09-15-2011, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post
PICO HD CHIPSET stated native resolution ~ 16:10 ratio ~ 1280x800 = 1.024.000 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET true native resolution ~ 5:4 ratio ~ 1140x912 ==== 1.039.680 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET pixel count ~ 16:9 ratio material ~ 1140x641 ===== 730.740 pixels
PICO HD CHIPSET pixel count ~ 3:4 ratio material ~ 1024x768 ? ===== 786.432 pixels
So apparently the true aspect ratio of the HD PICO chipset is 5:4 and NOT 16:10 as we were led to believe; Now i wonder, if i am planning on getting a new screen to be used with one of these pjs as well as with different pjs in the future, what would be the recommended screen ratio ?
True native resolution if you count in Diamond space = 912 x 1140

This number NEVER appears anywhere in the video processing pipeline unless someone digs deep into the DMD specs (may not even be known by some of the people who design the projectors) because the input to the DMD driver chip is square, just like the rest of the displays on the planet. The DMD driver chip can take a square array that is something like 1920 x 1200 or something huge.

I guess TI would tell everyone to use 1280 x 800 because

1. The physical size of the active array really is in a 16:10 ratio. This is due to how the pixels are arranged, can't just just divide the columns and row directly to get the ratio because they are not aligned like a square

2. The diamond array size was probably derived by calculating how much "information" can be retained when doing the conversion from square to diamond and how much "distortion" a user could tolerate before noticing. You can read up on Shannon's information theory if it takes your fancy.

3. It is the closest commonly used resolution in square space.

There is actually slightly more pixels in the diamond array compared to a 1280 x 800 square array, so the panel itself is able to convey more "information" due to having more pixels, but when the conversion from square to diamond is done, the mathematics don't work out exactly and the result is "information distortion".

Most people don't notice anything out of place so everything is peachy
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post #300 of 429 Old 09-15-2011, 06:47 AM
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Ugh, after reading this, it almost feels like one is being tricked when viewing these "1280x800" chipsets.

Is it "possible" for some people to notice these discrepancies in the "information processing"? Like how some people can notice rainbows, whilst others cannot?

I can't wait for TI to release a proper 1280x720 chipset in a square-pixel format. =(

Quote:
Originally Posted by anomaly123 View Post
True native resolution if you count in Diamond space = 912 x 1140

This number NEVER appears anywhere in the video processing pipeline unless someone digs deep into the DMD specs (may not even be known by some of the people who design the projectors) because the input to the DMD driver chip is square, just like the rest of the displays on the planet. The DMD driver chip can take a square array that is something like 1920 x 1200 or something huge.

I guess TI would tell everyone to use 1280 x 800 because

1. The physical size of the active array really is in a 16:10 ratio. This is due to how the pixels are arranged, can't just just divide the columns and row directly to get the ratio because they are not aligned like a square

2. The diamond array size was probably derived by calculating how much "information" can be retained when doing the conversion from square to diamond and how much "distortion" a user could tolerate before noticing. You can read up on Shannon's information theory if it takes your fancy.

3. It is the closest commonly used resolution in square space.

There is actually slightly more pixels in the diamond array compared to a 1280 x 800 square array, so the panel itself is able to convey more "information" due to having more pixels, but when the conversion from square to diamond is done, the mathematics don't work out exactly and the result is "information distortion".

Most people don't notice anything out of place so everything is peachy
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