The Three 1280x800 LED Clones - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 429 Old 06-26-2011, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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It appears that coming August/September we'll be able to get three clones of the same native 1280x800 "Pico" LED projector spec'ed at 500 lumens : the Optoma ML-500, the Viewsonic PLED-W500 and the Acer K330.
From the pictures i've seen, the Optoma and the Viewsonic have the same inputs/outputs - detachable AC power cord, HDMI, USB, Mini USB, VGA, Composite Video, S-Video, A/V IN, Audio Out - with the control buttons located on top of case to its left (as seen from behind) and offering different designs; Aesthetically speaking, i thought the design of the control buttons on the Viewsonic PLED-W500 looked better than the "diagonal" look of the same set of controls on the Optoma ML-500 and both cases look shiny black.
On the lookalike Acer K330 the S-Video Input has been taken away and the same set of controls described above has been moved toward the center rear of the case (as seen from behind), displaying a smaller rectangular design look of "silver-metal buttons control station" completely surrounded by combination of glossy/flat black case, giving it a much nicer look, i thought.
Interesting enough, Acer claims a contrast ratio of 5.000:1 while the other two manufacturers state 2.000:1 for their products, so i think that's hyperbole from Acer.
The Optoma msrp is $700 while the Viewsonic and Acer appear to be $650.
The Acer is supposed to be available in August and the other two in September.
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post #2 of 429 Old 06-26-2011, 05:42 AM
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as you can see here
http://detail.zol.com.cn/picture_ind...x6645417.shtml

the acer is 3d ready. so i assume the other two are able to view 3d-content with the help of dlp link too.
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post #3 of 429 Old 06-26-2011, 01:50 PM
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Okay that's Coretronic, now is Delta or any of the other DLP developers coming out with a similar platform?
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post #4 of 429 Old 06-28-2011, 08:12 AM
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Acer will definitely help itself in sales if they can get this out a month before the Optoma & Viewsonic. I've already talked myself into a LED DLP and since the 300 lumen qumi hasn't came out yet these 500 lumen LED's are looking better and better.

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post #5 of 429 Old 06-28-2011, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mbw23air View Post
Acer will definitely help itself in sales if they can get this out a month before the Optoma & Viewsonic. I've already talked myself into a LED DLP and since the 300 lumen qumi hasn't came out yet these 500 lumen LED's are looking better and better.

Mike
coming from the same factory they will hit at the same time probably

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post #6 of 429 Old 06-28-2011, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

coming from the same factory they will hit at the same time probably

That would be best if they did.

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post #7 of 429 Old 06-29-2011, 12:07 PM
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I dont beleive we'd see 3x PT 120 leds below 1000 usd, I think they use that same pt 54 they need narrow light anyway because smaller micromirror device.
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post #8 of 429 Old 06-29-2011, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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...And from what i've garnered so far, i believe that these 500 lumens LED + TI DMD chip projectors will all use the Luminus Devices PT-120 (or the PT-121) chipset, after reading that Infocom link unequivocally stating that the upcoming LG HW300T -native 1280x800, 270 lumens - will use the PT-54 chipset; How else would the OEM for these pjs achieve 500 lumens off the same illuminating chipset ? Why overdrive the PT-54 R/G/B chipset when for a few dollars more you can get the more powerful PT-120 (or the PT-121) ?
Both of these LED chipsets are essentially the same as far as lumens output, the difference being that the PT-120 is optimized for 16:9 microdisplays and the PT-121 is optimized for 4:3 microdisplays.
Apparently i had erroneously assumed that because the LG HW300T uses the new 1280x800 "Pico" chip from TI, which is 16:9 formatted (technically, 16:10) it HAD to use a likewise sized 16:9 illuminating LED chipset, which the PT-54 is NOT, as it is 4:3 formatted.
So my assumption that to illuminate 16:9 formatted microdisplays with LEDs must be done by same-ratio 16:9 LED chipsets is incorrect, according to that link...
On a side note, donaldk how did you get the info that Coretronics is the OEM for these upcoming 500 lumens LED projectors ? I checked the company's website extensively and all i could find related to the subject was a small picture of a pj that resembles the Viewsonic PLED-W300.
If i remember correctly, when the first batch of ubber-expensive LEDs driven pjs appeared about 1 1/2 years ago there were two OEMs, Delta Electronics and Chillin Technologies; Is that correct ?
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post #9 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 08:41 AM
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Chillin was the first on the block with its prototype, I had missed that buzz surrounding its Cedia demo, as it was minimal. Unlike the fuzz TI made about its platform development deal with Delta and the launch customer/projector vendor Vivitek, at IFA (2008? or 2009?). Optoma was said in the release to follow Vivitek, but that one never materialized. Optoma did get that development deal for the 3D DLP LED XGA classroom projector platform.

Now take another look at that CES video on youtube that shows them all on a row, it includes a small unit with a tiny fan sporting the name of its developer, but would be marketed by Optoma. That company (forgot the name) is a fellow subsidiary of Coretronic, like Optoma. I am conjecturing here that the same holds true for the bigger unit. As Viewsonic and Acer are basically marketing/sales houses, not manufacturers, and Acer products are generally ODM, not OEM.

BTW, what infocomm link are you refering to?
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post #10 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 08:46 AM
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If these are using the PT-120 then why is the lumen output so low in comparison the the units using the Chillin or Delta platform which also use the PT-120?

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post #11 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 08:57 AM
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Calibrated lumens on the Delatplatforms was around 400-450 lumens! Manufacturers have optimized their designs by now, and can get a bit more, but not that much.

Manufacturer claims like 1000 ANSI lumens by DPI (other claimed around 800) on its first version of the Delta platform were simply never met, and grossly exagurated.

Watercooled engines like that by Chillin, or those new Barco Cubes, have more reserve. And with EE coloroverdrive option of the TrueVango/Display Development, you can use a margin built-in to the DLP chip control.
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post #12 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 12:57 PM
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At first , I think they simply use the simpler LED device available and constantly lit hold mode to maximise light output vs. worsen motion portrayal & shorten LED lifetime, plus 3D might be band aid afterthought gimmick option too. Casio's 3D firmware is exceptionally bad , total unfriendly handling of 120hz , for example.
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post #13 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gain3 View Post

Casio's 3D firmware is exceptionally bad , total unfriendly handling of 120hz , for example.

I would like to see specs for its dlp link-is there a link or some info you could share?

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post #14 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 01:18 PM
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post #15 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 01:40 PM
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(60Hz/120Hz field sequential protocol)

we have heard the dlp link 3d works fine from someone who has seen it-its standard dlp link-am i missing some thing?

you do know it cant do 60hz and 120hz vertical at the same time right?

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post #16 of 429 Old 06-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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look, if you won't notice:

- no hdmi for 120hz

- no color management for 120 hz,

- no eco mode for 120hz ( !!!! sure you'r not running any small RP screen and you wont need "headroom" huh ? !!!!)

-no , nothing basically, with 120hz you re out of everything, instead of potential crosslinking stuff, closing the gap towards time parallel somehow....
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post #17 of 429 Old 07-05-2011, 09:52 AM
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I had an Amazon pre-order for the Vivitek Qumi that I made early, on May 2nd, and based on these recent posts, I think that I likely would have been shipped a Qumi sometime this week in two to four days, even while many, many people wait. However, I have been seeing postings on AVSForum with information about THREE new LED DLP HD(1280x800) projectors: The Optoma ML-500, the Acer K330, and the Viewsonic PLED-W500, all of which use the new Texas Instruments DLP HD (1280x800) DMD chip, but seem to use the Luminus PT-120 LED chipset, which is optimized for widescreen display, instead of the Luminus PT-54. I JUST canceled my early (May 2nd) Amazon pre-order for the Vivitek Qumi today (10:29am EST to be exact). Then literally, just minutes after I cancel my order, these posts appear that the Vivitek Qumi is actually shipping from Amazon! I could NOT get an answer from Vivitek as to whether the optics of the Qumi could focus to a projected image of 120" (3 meters) diagonally (the published projected image range is up to 90" diagonally), so I decided to get the Optoma ML-500 when it becomes available because Optoma publishes a spec that the ML-500 will project up to a 120" image diagonally, 16:9 with 500 ANSI lumens. So yeah, I will have to wait yet again until August (when the Viewsonic PLED-W500 is announced to be released) or wait until September when the Optoma ML-500 is due. Vivitek, and all other companies, you MUST have very adept marketing people working for you, or customers will not know about or highly value your product.

Update, July 8: Just minutes after posting this, I did get a reply from Vivitek that answered my question, the Qumi does focus out to 120" image size and even larger. I immediately ordered a Qumi from Amazon, and I just received the tracking number that it has shipped. From postings by users who have received and reviewed the Vivitek Qumi, it is looking like an awesome product, and the first HD LED DLP at it's price. Thank you, zombie10K for the very clear screen shots. I agree that the "bang for the buck" on the Qumi is off the charts!
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post #18 of 429 Old 07-05-2011, 12:40 PM
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300vs 500 lumen is rather due to the persistence settings, you shouldnt spread that pt120 rumour...
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post #19 of 429 Old 07-05-2011, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gain3 View Post

300vs 500 lumen is rather due to the persistence settings, you shouldnt spread that pt120 rumour...

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Could you possibly clarify your statement and be less laconic ?
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post #20 of 429 Old 07-05-2011, 06:54 PM - Thread Starter
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RonKnox >>> I have been using my LG HX300G an average of 10/12 hours each day for almost one year and love its picture, sharpness, colors and reliability - that's over 3.500 hours of use and counting !
The LG HX300G is also recommended for screens up to 92"~96" diagonal and when i installed it i considered using a larger screen but i immediately noticed that going over the recommended size made individual pixels look "fuzzier" the bigger the screen and thus losing too much of that "sharp as a tack" DLP image, so i gave up on the idea.
I know there are many people out there using these smaller LED pjs with screens larger than recommended by the manufacturers and i can't help but wonder why would they be willing to get a larger image at the cost of a fuzzier picture, with individual pixel boundaries clearly appearing somewhat out-of-focus.... I guess to each his own, as that old adage goes.
If you're planning on getting a screen that large i would say that you're absolutely right by being a little more patient and wait for the release of these upcoming 500 lumen LED pjs; I certainly am !
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post #21 of 429 Old 07-05-2011, 08:52 PM
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MCaugusto, for a couple of weeks, I used an LG HS201 at 120" diagonal projection, and I noticed the same effect. I didn't keep the HS201 because I clearly realized that it's resolution wasn't enough at that size. I saw large, soft-edged pixels from my viewing distance, though the brightness of the HS201 was enough to me to enjoy in theater darkness. Yes, there is a difference in the optics being focusable and focusing accurately.
So, I already have an Elite 120" widescreen, Boston Acoustics surround speakers, Yamaha DD/DTS receiver, and LG Blu-ray player, all in a dedicated, completely darkened room, just waiting for the right projector . . . . which isn't making the waiting any easier.
I read your earlier posts regarding why a manufacturer would use the Luminus PT-54 LED chipset when the PT-120 is marginally more at cost, and that makes sense to me. Gain3 posted that the 300 v 500 lumen difference is due to (longer) persistence of the LED pulses; how would this timing affect the 120Hz scan rate, that is, will the trio of 500 lumen projectors still be 120Hz? I do like the crispness of 120Hz on my 52" Samsung flatpanel (some don't). I don't know anything conclusively, if it's a fact or rumor, which Luminous LEDs are in the Optoma ML-500, Acer K330, & Viewsonic PLED-W500; if anyone has a source and can confirm which, please post it.
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post #22 of 429 Old 07-07-2011, 04:02 PM
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I own a Sharpvision 12000 MKII which is a 720P high quality DLP projector from about five years ago. My screen is 92"s HP 2.8 and in a dark room. My question is this: Is the pixel gap on the Qumi narrower than on the Sharpvision DLP Dark Chip 3. If so, then it would seem that I would improve my perceived resolution with the Qumi. Correct?

Jack
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post #23 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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JackB >>> I don't think the pixel gap of a native 1280x720 DMD chip versus one with 1280x800 resolution would be that noticeable; What i find more interesting is the fact that the pixel structure of this new "Pico" chip is arranged in a "diamond/hexagonal" arrangement, as pictured on the Qumi thread, hmm...
On the other hand, you would be getting a tiny $500 pj with richly saturated LED colors that you can carry in a backpack, no color wheel but instead LEDs that cycle 16 times faster with almost imperceptible "rainbow effect", a comparable contrast ratio of 2.500:1 to your five year old Sharp pj, a light source that comes on almost instantly, does not suffer noticeable brightness loss after only hundreds of hours of use, lasts for tens of thousands of hours and hardly ever needs re-calibration; Buy it from a retailer that allows returns without hassles and try it out.
Best of all, it appears that you already own an excellent and ideally sized screen to go with the Qumi, although if i remember correctly the Da-Lite HP 2.8 screen is retro-reflective and thus should be set-up with the pj placed with its lens facing the center of the screen and not placed/facing the bottom of screen, correct ?
Personally i would be all over this pj if it wasn't for the fact that within 1 1/2 months we should be able to purchase announced LED pjs with even higher 500 lumens output.
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post #24 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

On the other hand, you would be getting...no color wheel but instead LEDs that cycle 16 times faster with almost imperceptible "rainbow effect"

Please stop repeating this misinformation. That pulse rate is the maximum speed the LEDs can be cycled. The actual pulse rate is set by the Manufacturer (Acer, LG, Samsung, Vivitek, etc) and may be much slower. I have owned 2 Optoma LEDs and the Acer K11. The Optoma's equivalent "color wheel speed" was closer to 4x while the Acer was closer to 6x. Despite the Acer also being brighter, it was much harder to see rainbows. There are a few reports from people owning the Vivitek Qumi that rainbows are easily viewable as well. This would not be the case if the LEDs were cycled at their maximum speed.

There is no guarantee any LED projector will have faster LED cycling; unfortunately, it is in the hands of the manufacturer to choose the speed.
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post #25 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 02:44 PM - Thread Starter
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...On the other hand, i could say please stop your conjecturing unless you have proof of your statements ! Do you have any info related to the subject that Luminus Devices LED chipsets allow manufacturers to change its ON/ON cycling speed ? Why would it be so if the end result would be more noticeable rainbows ? Would there be any benefits in doing so ?
Do you even know for sure that the LED pjs mentioned by you use chipsets from Luminus Devices ? How can you claim with such certainty that the equivalent color wheel speed of these pjs is 4x or 6x ? Are those "figures" based on your own eyesight estimation or did you use intrumentation, which i doubt very much ?
Before stating that i am spreading misinformation, check you own assumptions at the door then present us with some empirical evidence or statements from these various manufacturers you mentioned confirming your statements.
I own a LG HX300G that is illuminated by R/G/B LED chipsets from Luminus Devices which cycle ON/OFF at 2,900 times per second as specified by the manufacturer, which is 16 times faster than a standard color wheel speed of 180 times per second, and until i hear otherwise FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE SOURCE i will proceed with my assumptions which are based on current information out there; Can you say the same about your own statement ?
Oh, and btw, i can still see an occasional "rainbow" from my LG HX300G...
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post #26 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 03:39 PM
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I'm not trying to fan the flames, but according to the information in the DLP FAQs the dlp chip can switch at a rate of up to 5000 times per second. If each of the LEDs were flashing at 2,900 times per second, that would require the DLP chip to switch at a rate of 8,700 times per second in order to keep up. The fastest that the LEDs could flash would be 1,666.667 times per second for the DLP to keep up. http://www.dlp.com/technology/dlp-faqs/default.aspx

edit: Just wanted to add this little bit from the pt-54 developer kit manual. "The driver board is fully capable of driving the LEDs in either
CW or pulsed mode. PWM frequencies in excess of 40kHz are
feasible. An external function generator is required for generating
the pulse trains." Notice that Luminus does not provide the pulse generator.

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post #27 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

...On the other hand, i could say please stop your conjecturing unless you have proof of your statements ! Do you have any info related to the subject that Luminus Devices LED chipsets allow manufacturers to change its ON/ON cycling speed ? Why would it be so if the end result would be more noticeable rainbows ? Would there be any benefits in doing so ?
Do you even know for sure that the LED pjs mentioned by you use chipsets from Luminus Devices ? How can you claim with such certainty that the equivalent color wheel speed of these pjs is 4x or 6x ? Are those "figures" based on your own eyesight estimation or did you use intrumentation, which i doubt very much ?
Before stating that i am spreading misinformation, check you own assumptions at the door then present us with some empirical evidence or statements from these various manufacturers you mentioned confirming your statements.
I own a LG HX300G that is illuminated by R/G/B LED chipsets from Luminus Devices which cycle ON/OFF at 2,900 times per second as specified by the manufacturer, which is 16 times faster than a standard color wheel speed of 180 times per second, and until i hear otherwise FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE SOURCE i will proceed with my assumptions which are based on current information out there; Can you say the same about your own statement ?
Oh, and btw, i can still see an occasional "rainbow" from my LG HX300G...

I will only comment once on this, as I do not wish to derail this thread. My comments are based on experience. I am very sensitive to rainbows and a while back owned a 5x speed Sharp DT500. I would see rainbows if I was looking for them and occasionally on certain video content (high contrast..i.e. a films like Renaissance or scrolling credits). I've also owned an Infocus 4805 and recently an Optoma GT720. On both of those projectors I would see rainbows constantly, and for that reason sold them. So I have some experience of the frequency of rainbows based on certain color wheel speeds, with the 5x Sharp DT500 having minimal but still occasional rainbows.

In the last 6 months I had an Acer K11 and saw rainbows far less than even the 5x Sharp DT500, and so my estimation is that the Acer K11's color cycling is 6x or higher.

Now there are posts here on AVS and reviews elsewhere where the high frequency of rainbows are mentioned, and these are Phlatlight based projectors, one for example the Samsung p400.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17486359

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2337292,00.asp

There aren't enough reports on the Vivitek Qumi to form an opinion yet, but several people have reported seeing rainbows, with one person seeing them more often than his Infocus 4805...which would put the Qumi at a 4x speed or less...far, far less than the 16x speed you frequently quote:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20675167

Just for you though I am going to email Luminous about whether Phlatlight chips are always driven at their maximum speed or if this is the manufacturers choice.
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post #28 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 04:37 PM
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Please stop repeating this misinformation. That pulse rate is the maximum speed the LEDs can be cycled. The actual pulse rate is set by the Manufacturer (Acer, LG, Samsung, Vivitek, etc) and may be much slower. I have owned 2 Optoma LEDs and the Acer K11. The Optoma's equivalent "color wheel speed" was closer to 4x while the Acer was closer to 6x. Despite the Acer also being brighter, it was much harder to see rainbows. There are a few reports from people owning the Vivitek Qumi that rainbows are easily viewable as well. This would not be the case if the LEDs were cycled at their maximum speed.

There is no guarantee any LED projector will have faster LED cycling; unfortunately, it is in the hands of the manufacturer to choose the speed.

Agreed, but since rainbows are such an issue for people why don't manufacturers advertise the speed. It would seem to be a great selling point especially if they can get 6x or higher.
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post #29 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

...On the other hand, i could say please stop your conjecturing unless you have proof of your statements ! Do you have any info related to the subject that Luminus Devices LED chipsets allow manufacturers to change its ON/ON cycling speed ? Why would it be so if the end result would be more noticeable rainbows ? Would there be any benefits in doing so ?
Do you even know for sure that the LED pjs mentioned by you use chipsets from Luminus Devices ? How can you claim with such certainty that the equivalent color wheel speed of these pjs is 4x or 6x ? Are those "figures" based on your own eyesight estimation or did you use intrumentation, which i doubt very much ?
Before stating that i am spreading misinformation, check you own assumptions at the door then present us with some empirical evidence or statements from these various manufacturers you mentioned confirming your statements.
I own a LG HX300G that is illuminated by R/G/B LED chipsets from Luminus Devices which cycle ON/OFF at 2,900 times per second as specified by the manufacturer, which is 16 times faster than a standard color wheel speed of 180 times per second, and until i hear otherwise FROM A KNOWLEDGEABLE SOURCE i will proceed with my assumptions which are based on current information out there; Can you say the same about your own statement ?
Oh, and btw, i can still see an occasional "rainbow" from my LG HX300G...

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would ever see a rainbow at those speeds. 16x is a big number.
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post #30 of 429 Old 07-10-2011, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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"Estimation" based on one's own observations and experiences is very subjective, to say the least, and all the links you posted did not provide an answer to my "misinformation" that these LED chipsets cycle ON/OFF any lower than is stated on its website and that the end manufacturer of the projector is allowed access to change such cycling speeds.
On the other hand, i am glad seeing you taking matters into your own hands by contacting Luminus Devices directly to get to the bottom of my "misinformation"...
Bsims2719, i agree with you; If the speed of these chipsets is allowed to be increased/decreased according to the whim of the manufacturer, then i would assume that manufacturers of those $10,000~$15,000 LED projectors would definitely be boasting about ultilizing the highest cycling speeds possible, and i have never seen that mentioned.
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