New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Tom, Zombie over on the over $3,000 forum tested the Acer in 3D and I think he got around 650 lumens, which is pretty good. Not sure how old his lamp was. If you're getting 770 with a fairly new lamp then even with a 10% or 15% drop over the first 500 hours or so that's going to be a whole lot more than what Cin4Home got for the Panasonic and the Epson. I think they were in the neighbourhood of 150 lumens in 3D mode through the glasses and that's with new lamps! These figures seem a little strange to me. How do the Acer and Optoma achieve plus 600 lumens in 3D mode while the vastly more expensive projectors only have 150 or so lumens in 3D mode? This just doesn't make much sense to me. I guess to make up for their lack of lumens they throw in "ghosting" at no extra cost. Just kidding.

The brightness comes from the light chamber / color wheel. The Acer and the early Optoma 3D projectors use a RGBCYM color wheel which means bright. The new HD33/3300 has a lightened color spectrum of RGB/RGB letting through much more light, this I got from my engineer buddy. He worked on the design and the high processing power in the projector for 3D added deeper color saturation, so the lighter colors on the wheel didn't effect color saturation so badly. Really nice work figuring how to get the most out of the new wheel so they could get the 6x speed RGB/RGB to work for 3D.

I got started using my light meter with american numbers ft candles. When I tested say the Optoma H79 DC3 it was considered very good tuned lumens at about 15.7 ft candles. These 3D projectors like the HD33 killed my light meter with over 50ft candles a hugh difference never saw that before in a HT designed projector. Even the LV optoma was lower.

One other thing, I'm testing the light levels with the meter at the center screens distance from the setup projector. When I did this new test on how the glasses effect light for 3D I used the same format, that 38% of light level is accurate. No where near 150 or 200lumens of light, much higher.

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post #542 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

The brightness comes from the light chamber / color wheel. The Acer and the early Optoma 3D projectors use a RGBCYM color wheel which means bright. The new HD33/3300 has a lightened color spectrum of RGB/RGB letting through much more light, this I got from my engineer buddy. He worked on the design and the high processing power in the projector for 3D added deeper color saturation, so the lighter colors on the wheel didn't effect color saturation so badly. Really nice work figuring how to get the most out of the new wheel so they could get the 6x speed RGB/RGB to work for 3D.

I got started using my light meter with american numbers ft candles. When I tested say the Optoma H79 DC3 it was considered very good tuned lumens at about 15.7 ft candles. These 3D projectors like the HD33 killed my light meter with over 50ft candles a hugh difference never saw that before in a HT designed projector. Even the LV optoma was lower.

To be a little more accurate, it's actually a 3x color wheel.

"With a 3x-speed, 6-segment RGBRGB color wheel, the HD33 waves a fond farewell to the rainbow effect. Here's where it gets tricky: the HD33 has a refresh rate of 120Hz and the color wheel goes through three full cycles per frame, for a 3x refresh rate. If this projector were running at 60Hz, the same wheel speed would be referred to as 6x. If you see both numbers around the Internet, this is why."

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post #543 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 06:25 PM
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PS, let us wait for the reviews, but I'm going to bet Epson is brighter in 3D than optoma based on literature and previews. The real question will be ghosting/crosstalk.

"All of the Epson projectors sport Epson’s new 480hz panels, which per Epson, is how they are able to offer the brightest 3D home projectors to date (assuming you ignore $70,000 Runco projectors, etc.)"

Optoma HD33 lumens:
"For a family room type environment and 3D, while also great that the HD33 claims plenty of lumens, it came up well short of claim. That still makes it rather bright in "best mode" but, it's only slightly brighter than the average projector at its brightest, a far cry from the 1800 lumens claimed, which really would have been impressive. More on this later, let's just say we would have loved to have seen something like 1600 hundred of those 1800 claimed, but almost 1200 lumens was it.

Overall, 3D looked rather good. Brightness can be a minor limitation, depending on your screen. This projector, though has generally not looked dim, during viewing in my rooms. It is a bit brighter than any of the previous 3D projectors to roll through here, but for the big LG CF3D. Most of the rest are fooling around in the 600 to 1000 lumens maximum, so very thin when it comes to 3D."

Comment from Art on pre-revision epson 3010 vs optoma hd33:
"Terrill, just a few more days…out of the box color is pretty good. Mike just calibrated it, am firing it up soon. It’s bright. Significantly brighter than the Optoma HD33. I’ve taken side by side images for the review. -art"

Let's see how it turns out in 3D, that is a general statement. So even though the spec sheets say one thing, you never know how the lumens finalize. Panasonic is one to hit their marks, Epson does normally as well. Art did mention earlier the epson had some cross talking in his preliminary showing, and needed some work - but something got revised, who knows what.

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post #544 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 06:37 PM
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Thanks Tom. I hadn't noticed you actually measured 2016. I'm glad you've measured serious lumens in 3D both behind and in front of the glasses. The measured brightness of that Optoma is big news of real significance. A 1.0 gain screen makes your measurements much easier to understand and to generalize. If you have time, I'd like it if you put in one post your collected measurements and findings re 3D brightness. It is a big finding.
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post #545 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 07:41 PM
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My in 3D without the glasses showed the 2000 lumens, the glasses allowed 38% of light so times 38 times two and got the 700+ lumens while viewing 3D with the glasses on, plenty bright.

I don't know what these other guys are doing or using, they could be using their color meters for numbers. The better testers use light meters and know proper setup distance screen gain plus size to find the final numbers they need. What happens behind the glasses is a new one. No one ever says what they're doing to coronate how they get their findings, so I'll take claim to light meter at the screen distance number level without glasses / number level with glasses. 770 lumens for the Optoma HD3300 watching 3D.

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post #546 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 07:50 PM
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"Optoma HD33 lumens:
"For a family room type environment and 3D, while also great that the HD33 claims plenty of lumens, it came up well short of claim. That still makes it rather bright in "best mode" but, it's only slightly brighter than the average projector at its brightest, a far cry from the 1800 lumens claimed, which really would have been impressive. More on this later, let's just say we would have loved to have seen something like 1600 hundred of those 1800 claimed, but almost 1200 lumens was it."

Who's this Art saying this stuff. He confuses you, when he says best mode he means tuned down to D65k which lowers brightness. Yes 2D tuned down to D65k on my machine wasn't 2000 lumens which is a good thing. Regular Movie watching and TV/HDTV watching you don't want 2000 lumens 1200 is too much also, 500/600/maybe near 700 is ok.

But watching 3D with the glasses on you need it all 2000 lumens taken down to about 750lumens puts the movies in a the best theater viewing mode. See what I mean. And that is a very bright level for both formats.

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post #547 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 07:52 PM
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Guitarman, could you explain why you multiplied by 2 after getting 38% of 2000? If you had the glasses letting 100% of the light through you wouldn't say the PJ had 4000 lumen brightness, would you?

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post #548 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 07:58 PM
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I do wierd math, 1000 38% times 2 equals 760 lumens for 2000 lumens. glasses on.

Wow I just realized I'm in the wrong thread, I belong in the Optoma thread. sorry

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post #549 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 08:01 PM
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Ok, I understand now.

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post #550 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

"All of the Epson projectors sport Epson's new 480hz panels, which per Epson, is how they are able to offer the brightest 3D home projectors to date (assuming you ignore $70,000 Runco projectors, etc.)"

Why would the higher refresh rate affect brightness ?

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post #551 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 08:13 PM
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Less time where both eyes are blanked. Look at the cine4home review or look at Epson's website (I think it is there too).

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post #552 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 08:21 PM
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I buy that the 480hz panels definitely reduced light loss on LCDs, but I still doubt it's down to DLP levels. With LCD, you have an inter-frame dead zone. 480hz minimizes it. With DLP, you don't have that dead zone to start with...
Not downing on the Epson - notice which one I've got ordered - just trying to keep marketing buzz out of differentiating facts I mean, if you've got an LCD that can produce 1100 lumens calibrated and a dlp that can produce 900, and the lcd loses 10% more as a result of the blank frame, that's still more net lumens
Not saying those are the numbers - nobody's tested the Epson for actual calibrated light output yet. Just giving an example of what I mean.
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post #553 of 2311 Old 10-15-2011, 08:34 PM
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When compared with LCDs of slower panels, correct!

Also, there is a balance between light output and ghosting depending on the length of the blanking frame.

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post #554 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post

the sony DLP that was 10K had ghosting that optoma doesn't show, so not a great argument. JVC isn't Epson which isn't panasonic. Panasonic and Epson have 480hz panels.

have you read any reviews of the optoma ghosting more after 1000 hours?

So much for the new Panny not ghosting. Check out posts 755 and 775 (particularly 775) from the link below.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...363959&page=26

After seeing these problems I am going to read PC's and AVforums reviews with some skepticism from now on. I'll bet the new Epsons show similar results to the Panny for "ghosting" issues.
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post #555 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 09:01 AM
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Buy the optoma then. I'll see if Epson has ghosting. Sprocket never replied on that.

It's early adoption, optoma will have problems too; who has better customer service? xD.

Btw people seem to be afraid of optomas low 4000:1 contrast ratio, my sim2 is only 5000:1 but will knock the crap out of most higher numbers. Also limited brightness in 3d helps ghosting reading those threads, as to why panny and epson might display it and optoma not?

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post #556 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
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Buy the optoma then. I'll see if Epson has ghosting. Sprocket never replied on that.

It's early adoption, optoma will have problems too; who has better customer service? xD.

Please do comment on ghosting....If epson shows even a little bit of this ghosting, its a dead end for me.

Optoma users pride themselves about no ghosting.....also it has RF glasses which give the user great flexibility to tune out ghosting if it ever arises in the future...Epson is locked onto its inflixible IR technology which cant be tuned.

People visiting this forum must be interested in 3D (else there are better 2D PJ w/o the 3D price tag) and so cantr imagine how Epson will be an option for them if it has ghosting.
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post #557 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 09:50 AM
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Some of us are 99% 2D and want to dabble in 3D. I don't need PERFECT 3D, but something enjoyable. I don't see the ghosting on the Panny 7000 as a deal breaker if that is the worst it gets. It may make more sense to have two PJs...as it was last year also. Looking forward to getting more reviews on the Epsons (both models).

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post #558 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 10:16 AM
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I'll comment on 3d, but I would look At the panny ar 100u if I only cared about 2d.

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post #559 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Some of us are 99% 2D and want to dabble in 3D. I don't need PERFECT 3D, but something enjoyable. I don't see the ghosting on the Panny 7000 as a deal breaker if that is the worst it gets. It may make more sense to have two PJs...as it was last year also. Looking forward to getting more reviews on the Epsons (both models).

Yes see where you are coming from....

but keep in mind that for many the effect of ghosting is quite disruptive in 3D as you will be pulled out of a convincig 3D effect....

If you only care for 3D 1% of the time, it seems its a lot premium to pay for. You might as well save the money and go for the best 2D in this price range.
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post #560 of 2311 Old 10-16-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Some of us are 99% 2D and want to dabble in 3D. I don't need PERFECT 3D, but something enjoyable. I don't see the ghosting on the Panny 7000 as a deal breaker if that is the worst it gets. It may make more sense to have two PJs...as it was last year also. Looking forward to getting more reviews on the Epsons (both models).

I feel the same way. The fact is that the vast majority of content is in 2D. I love classics on Blu-Ray and 3D is pretty useless for these types of movies, but as a family, it will be fun to watch 3D movies from time to time. I expect about 10% or less of my viewing to be in 3D and 90% or so to be in 2D.

So for me, I would prefer a projector that did 3D okay but was a better overall balance. I don't have RBE issues with DLP so I am considering all options, but have had a friend burned by Optoma's really poor customer service and am reluctant to go with Optoma. I am also concerned about lumens on the Optoma, but I do like that it uses RF emitter vs IR.

Looking forward to the professional reviews on the 3010.
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post #561 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 12:06 AM
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cant we just have a projector that actually does what it says on the box - consumer driven meh

man goes into a store and asks for a toaster, sales man shows him 27 toasters - seriously guys its a toaster - it shouldnt be that hard

model i am looking @ is Epson EH-TW6000W - which i think its equivalent of the 3010 - information in oz says it has lens shift

40,000:1 High Contrast Ratio – Bright whites and deep blacks for stunning image quality
High Brightness 3D – Full HD, 480Hz active shutter technology allows you to enjoy thrilling 3D adventures in the comfort of your own home
Installation Flexibility – Auto vertical and sliding Horizontal keystone correction + zoom
Split Screen Feature – Project two images side-by-side, making sure you don’t miss out on any of the action
Captivating Sound – Enjoy amazing audio with two built-in 10W speakers
WirelessHD – Eliminate cable clutter and simplify installations

perfectly priced @ $2700 aus - pretty cheap seing as though entry level jvc x3 is twice that here
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post #562 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
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Yes see where you are coming from....

but keep in mind that for many the effect of ghosting is quite disruptive in 3D as you will be pulled out of a convincig 3D effect....

If you only care for 3D 1% of the time, it seems its a lot premium to pay for. You might as well save the money and go for the best 2D in this price range.

The images posted in the panny thread showed better extinction rates than theater circular polarization. Ghosting can be quite disruptive, I agree entirely, but I'm not sure what's shown in that thread would cross the threshold into distraction. And of course, it diminished to near-zero when in modes other than dynamic, so that's also an option (though obviously the more lumens the better)...

Everyone keeps saying DLPs have zero ghosting, and I've got a 3d dlp that does an amazing job, so I see where they're coming from. But the fact is, with perfectly switched images and perfectly timed glasses, the extinction rate is still there, and still measurable - it's just that it has been reduced to below the threshold of perception. When you throw more lumens at the picture, that threshold changes - which may be what we're seeing with the panasonic examples.



I've heard people time and time again say DLP is simply the superior option for 3d, or other such broad sweeping generalizations - but the fact is, all the technologies have tradeoffs, advantages, and disadvantages. DLP has an innate advantage in percentage of light retained in 3d, but that's just one spec in a huge array of important facts (and even that's irrelevant if the LCD in question has a lumen advantage that outweighs the percent retained disadvantage).

We'll see how these line up when more than 2-3 people actually have them. It's funny to me to hear anyone claiming EITHER is superior when we've actually heard from ONE person who has one, and he's stated only positive feedback (and nothing about ghosting).
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post #563 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 02:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mephistoHD View Post

cant we just have a projector that actually does what it says on the box - consumer driven meh

man goes into a store and asks for a toaster, sales man shows him 27 toasters - seriously guys its a toaster - it shouldnt be that hard

model i am looking @ is Epson EH-TW6000W - which i think its equivalent of the 3010 - information in oz says it has lens shift

40,000:1 High Contrast Ratio - Bright whites and deep blacks for stunning image quality
High Brightness 3D - Full HD, 480Hz active shutter technology allows you to enjoy thrilling 3D adventures in the comfort of your own home
Installation Flexibility - Auto vertical and sliding Horizontal keystone correction + zoom
Split Screen Feature - Project two images side-by-side, making sure you don't miss out on any of the action
Captivating Sound - Enjoy amazing audio with two built-in 10W speakers
WirelessHD - Eliminate cable clutter and simplify installations

perfectly priced @ $2700 aus - pretty cheap seing as though entry level jvc x3 is twice that here

thats the 5010. the 3010 is cheaper. i thinks its the EH-TW4000W in oz land
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post #564 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 02:32 AM
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thats the 5010. the 3010 is cheaper. i thinks its the EH-TW4000W in oz land

I think that's the 3010e. The contrast ratio and keystone correction give it away. Keystone correction is not lens shift. Keystone is done digitally and will degrade picture quality. (No longer a 1 to 1 on the pixels in 1080p.)
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post #565 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 02:55 AM
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In europe will be model:
EH-TW5900 equivalent 3010
-with 2000 lumen and contrast ratio 20.000:1 1.6 x zoom keystone correction

EH-TW6000/w equivalent 3010
-with 2200 lumen and contrast ratio 40.000:1 1.6 x zoom keystone correction 0.61-inch wide panel with MLA (D9.8, C2Fine, 12Bit)

EH-TW9000/w equivalent 5010/6010
-with 2400 lumen (measured 2300 lumen) and contrast ratio 200.000:1 also the usual 2.1:1 x zoom lens with manual optical lens shift LCD Size 0.74-inch wide panel with MLA (D9, C2 Fine, 12 bit, OD) - Super-resolution technology (2D mode) - 2D-to-3D conversion - motorized pixel alignment of the panels.

Model EH-TW5900-6000 will be shipped this month.
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PowerLite Home Cinema 3010e is the eh-tw6000w in aus - so does that mean i am gonna loose quality playing around with it

also i am looking to ceiling mount this - i already have a grandview 110" screen up from my infocus x10 - make sure your roof isnt leaking but thats another story

the actual screen drops about half a metre from the top - am i going to have a problem with placement ? will i require a certain mount ?
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post #567 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quick thought on glasses - Personally I expect I'll be happy with IR (I was happy with DLP link other than image quality degradation), but some people have mentioned they'd prefer RF - The bit cauldron RF glasses (optoma, monster vision, curt palme, etc; all the RF glasses on the market are actually bit cauldron produced) are able to interface with IR emitters (see page 3: http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/bc5100_users_guide.pdf ) . Basically you just stick the sensor to the stock emitter and it syncronizes the RF output to it. I've never heard of anyone using it that way, I just noticed in the manual today and thought it would be an interesting option to consider.

Tempting to try it, but now I've got the two pair of IR glasses that come with the epson plus one more pair of the panasonic m-3di glasses ordered... and besides, like I said, I don't anticipate sync loss issues with IR.
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post #568 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mephistoHD View Post

PowerLite Home Cinema 3010e is the eh-tw6000w in aus - so does that mean i am gonna loose quality playing around with it

also i am looking to ceiling mount this - i already have a grandview 110" screen up from my infocus x10 - make sure your roof isnt leaking but thats another story

the actual screen drops about half a metre from the top - am i going to have a problem with placement ? will i require a certain mount ?

With the 3010 you'll want to mount the projector so that the lens is roughly even with the top of the screen. The exact placement will be shown in the manual.
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post #569 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 06:23 PM
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My ISF tech told me he's seen the 3010 at cedia and he sd that his associate kevin miller who worked on the development...felt that overall image quality was better than the 8700.

FWIW, it's still just feedback from one person so Im not saying it's the law since this is still a subjective thing and some may like the looks of DLP or other brands so take it as a guideline for your decision so don't get your panties all bunched up and cry foul...but for me it confirmed what I knew was true and I trust my tech we go back to 03. But epson is still on my crap list with no lens shift so I might just go with Panny AR100.
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post #570 of 2311 Old 10-17-2011, 06:44 PM
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I guess we will find out in 2 days or so when the reviews come out. The contrast is lower than the 8700, but the brightness is better. Heck, the contrast is slightly lower than the 8350 by Epson published specs.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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