New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 11:34 AM
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They both got the updated version; one of the reviews clarified that the update covered the iris.
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post #692 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

About the reviews....

You know, both these threads are chock full of people dismissing one review or the other because of one point or another. And I'm trying to reconcile them and doing a bit of reading between the lines... Thing is, they're both kindof biased in one particular way - And here's what I mean...


They really say kinda the same basic facts. They both see:
the 2d image quality advantage is epson
the 2d brightness advantage is epson by a large margin
the 3d brightness advantage is epson by a small margin
the 3d crosstalk advantage is optoma (margin not clear, subjectively described as 'significant' or 'a non-issue')
The 3d contrast advantage is optoma

Those are the facts most people are considering important, as far as I can tell, and the reviews *agree* on all of them. The difference is what they conclude based on those facts.

PR says the 3d crosstalk, while better on hd33, is a non-issue, far outweighed by brightness advantage of the 3010.
PC says the 3d crosstalk is significant, and when coupled with the cr advantage in 3d, it gives the hd33 the edge.

Those conclusions are NOT at odds! They're conclusions based on differing priorities. That's all! And also consider, BOTH reviewers gave both projectors excellent scores. Many posters seem to thing the PC review of the 3010 was terrible and the pc review of the hd33 was great --- They aggregated average scores are separated by 1/4 of one star (4.25 vs 4.5)!

What this really says to me is that these projectors are both pretty great, but like any well-placed competing products, have advantages and disadvantages. And honestly, reading the specs and looking at the tech, they're pretty much the exact advantages and disadvantages that should be expected.

It also says to me that both reviewers' reviews are clearly colored by their preferences. The PC reviewer is probably more swayed by crosstalk performance, and the PR reviewer is more swayed by brightness. Those preferences color their judgement, and when they have to make a conclusion, it's no surprise to see them fall in line with the projector that best fits their preferences.

You know it, but I just wanted to say - this is a terrific summary. I look forward to your own observations on the 3010 as well.
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post #693 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 11:51 AM
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You also have to account for your room and screen size. If you are dealing with ambient light and don't have a bat cave (i.e. black wall, ceiling, dark floors, etc) then you may need the extra lumens the Epson offers. If you have a dark room the Optoma may be more than enough. And of course, if you see rainbows, that may leave DLP off the table entirely. And you need to consider warranty and support. To get close to the level of support that Epson offers you need to step up to the 3300 vs the 33, unless you are just not concerned.
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post #694 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 12:03 PM
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Going to chime into this debate just for fun if you guys don't mind. I haven't seen either projector, but here are some generalities when comparing DLP to LCD that have to be taken into account.

1) When a DLP has no IRIS, the LCD will beat it in black levels, but unless the 3010's IRIS is much improved over the 8350's, the difference will not be that large between the hd33 and 3010.

2) Everyone sees different things in the image, some people are more sensitive to sharpness, and also the content you are watching will favor one technology usually. HD type nature shows and documentaries, bright scenes, sports are usually going to favor DLP, the other scenes often favor LCD (but not always).

3) My feeling is that you can't really call a projector an absolute winner because they will both have advantages and disadvantages, but expect the DLP to be sharper and more consistent of an image, expect the LCD to do a tad better for darker movies.

4) 3D, I'm sorry but when it comes to 3D, DLP all the way unless you just need the extra brightness of the Epson.

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post #695 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Those conclusions are NOT at odds! They're conclusions based on differing priorities. That's all!

I don't agree. I don't see art saying cross talk isn't a priority - afterall he talks about it.

As has been mentioned several times in AVS art favors Epson (if you wish has a bias for Epson) and AFAIK, PC is neutral.

As someone toying with the idea of selling HD3300 & getting epson since it will work better in my room setup-wise - PC review concerns me.

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post #696 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
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Sure, he talks about it, and he specifically dismisses it:"Consider, though this is an entry level 3D capable projector, and in that sense, 3D related noise, be it crosstalk, etc. should be treated as a non-issue, considering it rivals easily first gen 3D projectors (most still shipping) costing 5x more."

He believes that the level of crosstalk exhibited isn't a concern because of the price point. Other places in the review, he points out that the HD33 does a better job with crosstalk. That's essentially the same facts stated by the PC review, but with a very different interpretation of their importance and a different subjective evaluation of their extent. Ugh, let's not get into a semantics argument again
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post #697 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Sure, he talks about it, and he specifically dismisses it:"Consider, though this is an entry level 3D capable projector, and in that sense, 3D related noise, be it crosstalk, etc. should be treated as a non-issue, considering it rivals easily first gen 3D projectors (most still shipping) costing 5x more."

He believes that the level of crosstalk exhibited isn't a concern because of the price point. Other places in the review, he points out that the HD33 does a better job with crosstalk. That's essentially the same facts stated by the PC review, but with a very different interpretation of their importance and a different subjective evaluation of their extent. Ugh, let's not get into a semantics argument again

like some one said, if he gets paid by both companies, his hands are tied about making fair comparison and calling spade a spade !

PC is unbiased in that sense
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post #698 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 01:53 PM
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Is that accusation based on something documented somewhere? I see epson and optoma ads on both sites, so technically they BOTH get paid by both companies, but I assume you're talking about something a bit more nefarious. If there's no evidence of your claim, it sounds like you might be taking part in argumentum ad hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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post #699 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:07 PM
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Art generally favors brightness on cheaper projectors, he favors black levels on more expensive ones. He does favor Epson a bit, he used to work at Epson, so it's hard for him not to, that said I think he is one of the most unbiased reviewers on the net about projectors.

When it comes down to it, you can assist your decision based on numbers like native contrast, mounting, brightness, etc... First try to rule out one projector based on necessity of non-subjective numbers, if you cannot do that, then try to go view them yourself.

You guys actually have it somewhat easy for trying to decide on a 1080p 3D projector in this price range, only 2 choices!

That shouldn't be hard at all. Remember one important thing here, DLP vs. LCD is going to be subjective, but DLP does have QC advantages in not having variations in sharpness and convergence as well. Personally I'd pick the Optoma most likely if it were my choice and if 3D has any weight in it at all, but I haven't seen the Epson so who knows.

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post #700 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Is that accusation based on something documented somewhere? I see epson and optoma ads on both sites, so technically they BOTH get paid by both companies, but I assume you're talking about something a bit more nefarious. If there's no evidence of your claim, it sounds like you might be taking part in argumentum ad hominem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem


I truly apologize for coming to this conclusion based on some discussion in these thread as to whether he will alieniate any of the vendors by being objective.

I was hoping to see a slam-dunk review on 3010 3D performance, I guess I was frustrated about the thought of giving up on 3010 !
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post #701 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:09 PM
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Art is an exceedingly honest person from what I gather from everything he has written, but everyone has some BIAS even if they wish they didn't, just remember that...

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post #702 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

He does favor Epson a bit, he used to work at Epson....

Hmmm ... I didn't know about that. Does he put this as a disclaimer in his Epson projector reviews ? If he doesn't, that is one more negative in my book.

Anyway, as I've said elsewhere, I prefer to go by the collective opinion of AVS members. Looking forward to multiple reviews here.

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post #703 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:12 PM
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Agreed, everybody has some bias - I just wanted to be sure we're clearly differentiating between human bias and manufacturer palm-greasing

The epson thing is openly published on his profile:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/aboutcontact.php
though it says it was Epson computers, so probably not actually related at all.
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post #704 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Agreed, everybody has some bias - I just wanted to be sure we're clearly differentiating between human bias and manufacturer palm-greasing

Absolutely - I don't think anyone should accuse reviewers of fraud without backup evidence.

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post #705 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:19 PM
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I hope to become a reviewer, I have been practicing in these forums for a while as to get experience before I publish. The problem is it's not just about honesty or non-bias, it's hard to quantify things to what another person may see. Hence, we see different things in the image. The other problem is if you step on a MFR's toes, you're not likely to keep getting reviewer units, but if you do so in a way that allows them to address the issues, then they will be more understanding. I have already been dealing with some MFR's to get review units, and some of the requests have been that they need to have the right to approve a review before I post it, I have not given any MFR that right yet. That would really limit my review capability.

I haven't had time to get this going yet, just trying to get the calculator done first.

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post #706 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 02:23 PM
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Art actually says the Epson is sharper due to the better lens.

Also there is a thread in the calibration forum about calibrating Epsons at 75% instead of 100% for more "pop". I just found that thread yesterday actually.

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post #707 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

It's too bad Epson doesn't release a 5010 with 3D disabled at a price point between the 3010 and the 5010. For a lot of people that don't care about 3D a $2300 PJ with the capabilities of what the 5010 seems to be would be a no brainer. They'd decimate the competition. Are you listening Epson?

what about going with its predecessor, the 8700UB? They're going for like $1800-$1900 and still come with the spare bulb offer. Looks to be a fine 2D projector right in the middle price-wise
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post #708 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 03:29 PM
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I would go with the 8700, but the 5010 is much brighter in best mode for my 135" screen (larger when I go to 2.4 AR). If you have a smaller screen, want better blacks, and don't want 3D, the 8700 is the obvious choice.

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post #709 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Art generally favors brightness on cheaper projectors, he favors black levels on more expensive ones. He does favor Epson a bit, he used to work at Epson, so it's hard for him not to, that said I think he is one of the most unbiased reviewers on the net about projectors.

When it comes down to it, you can assist your decision based on numbers like native contrast, mounting, brightness, etc... First try to rule out one projector based on necessity of non-subjective numbers, if you cannot do that, then try to go view them yourself.

You guys actually have it somewhat easy for trying to decide on a 1080p 3D projector in this price range, only 2 choices!

That shouldn't be hard at all. Remember one important thing here, DLP vs. LCD is going to be subjective, but DLP does have QC advantages in not having variations in sharpness and convergence as well. Personally I'd pick the Optoma most likely if it were my choice and if 3D has any weight in it at all, but I haven't seen the Epson so who knows.

I think your 100% spot on here. Art is vert upfront that he was looking for a brighter projector for 3D and he was not affected by crosstalk as some people are. Just like some people are very sensitive to RBE with DLP and others are not. I have always respected his opinion and find myself agreeing with his reviews more than disagreeing.

He actually uses a JVC projector so I don't buy it that Epson has paid him off. He simply prefers a brighter projector and is willing to overlook cross talk. Others may not feel that way.
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post #710 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Art actually says the Epson is sharper due to the better lens.

Also there is a thread in the calibration forum about calibrating Epsons at 75% instead of 100% for more "pop". I just found that thread yesterday actually.

can anyone point me to this thread. I cant seem to find it
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post #711 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 04:13 PM
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I have already been dealing with some MFR's to get review units, and some of the requests have been that they need to have the right to approve a review before I post it, I have not given any MFR that right yet.

I think a fair thing to do is to send you comments (not the review) to manufacturers and let them correct any problems you encounter. In the review mention both the problems, and if they got corrected.

I've mentioned this in this thread earlier - we have to take reviewers comments with a bit a salt. There is a symbiotic relationship between reviewers & manufacturers. Or, the reviewers should be well off to be able to purchase and write completely unbiased reviews (like consumer reports claims).

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post #712 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 04:21 PM
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UPS = slooooooooooo
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post #713 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dave1969 View Post

can anyone point me to this thread. I cant seem to find it

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1134710

The Cine4Home review mentions a filter in their review (Beta review link) for the 5010 that is only available in Europe that increases contrast on the dynamic mode. I don't see why this couldn't be used on the 3010...does anyone know something about it?

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post #714 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

It's too bad Epson doesn't release a 5010 with 3D disabled at a price point between the 3010 and the 5010. For a lot of people that don't care about 3D a $2300 PJ with the capabilities of what the 5010 seems to be would be a no brainer. They'd decimate the competition. Are you listening Epson?

I couldn't agree more with this comment and matches exactly what I've been thinking, what about those of us who don't care about 3D and want a moderately priced projector that produces a great 2D image with lens shift, frame interpolation (and ideally lens memory)???
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post #715 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WynsWrld98 View Post

I couldn't agree more with this comment and matches exactly what I've been thinking, what about those of us who don't care about 3D and want a moderately priced projector that produces a great 2D image with lens shift, frame interpolation (and ideally lens memory)???

Apparently, there isn't a big enough market for this. That is why almost all new projectors are 3D ones.

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post #716 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 06:11 PM
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woo! got it in, and did about 30 minutes of testing. With it sitting in the floor, so it looks like crap, but doesn't stop from testing two things I've been wondering about - lag and ghosting.

So first, I don't have an hd33 to compare to. But I do have a pro350w, and it should theoretically perform similarly as far as ghosting goes. I also tested its lag just cuz I was curious, and since I was setting up anyway...

So, first, the pro350w. Lag test:




Pretty exceptional

Next, tridef's setup/test page for a 3d ghosting test. No glasses:

Glasses:
Very nice! extremely minimal ghosting. Yay


NOW..... The epson:

Lag first. Since I was already set to 720p, try that first:


erm... OUCH... Oh wait, noise reduction is on. Let's turn that off... and:

Ok, better, but still not good. It's scaling, though, so that's not unexpected. Alright, well, how about 1080p?

Still not good? This concerns me, but after taking the pics I realized, it's sitting on a little table on my floor tilted. I think it's got auto-keystone, doesn't it? I bet it's keystoning and that's causing lag. I'll have to re-test lag later

Now I know this is what a lot of people were really concerned about, right? So. Epson, tridef config page. No glasses:


Glasses:











Really? THIS is the ghosting everyone's been concerned about? Look closely and you can see the L just a tiny bit... I didn't realize it, but the nosepiece of the glasses kinda covered up the left side 'l' dots, they were still very hard to see, but a little easier than the bottom of the big "L" in the pic. Taking pics through glasses is tough

Anyway, if this is worse than the HD33, the HD33 must be gorram near perfect, and a significant improvement over the already quite amazing pro350w. And again, it comes back to my point - let's qualify what A>B actually means - as you can see, it definitely does NOT mean ghosting on B is bad.


Anyway, I gotta do some mods to my PJ box and mount before I can do more, and I've got a lan party coming up. so no idea if I'll get any more testing done 'til Monday. But, I just got confirmation that the RF glasses and emitter will be here Friday, so when I *do* get to test, I'll test them

Later, happy projecting to me
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post #717 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 06:33 PM
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Man that input lag test is really disappointing. I wonder if the 5010 will be the same? JVC (RS40 series) has even worse input lag from what I've read.

I wonder how the new Mits 7800 will fair? Someone here reported 30-50ms of lag on the older Mits HC4000 model.
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post #718 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 06:36 PM
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Very nice! I can't even see the ghosting. A delay of .06 s is bad? I'm not a hard core gamer so forgive me.

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post #719 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Really? THIS is the ghosting everyone's been concerned about? Look closely and you can see the L just a tiny bit...

This is quite minimal and shouldn't distract when watching movies.

I don't have tridef - I'll try to get some photos using other material (or may be I can make up this). Does anyone have some 3D patterns to test for ghosting I can download and use ?

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post #720 of 2311 Old 10-20-2011, 07:00 PM
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Man that input lag test is really disappointing. I wonder if the 5010 will be the same? JVC (RS40 series) has even worse input lag from what I've read.

I wonder how the new Mits 7800 will fair? Someone here reported 30-50ms of lag on the older Mits HC4000 model.

I agree that its disappointing, but like I said, I think I had some processing going on, so don't judge it too harsh just yet... I'll dig in a little deeper when time permits.
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