New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:00 PM
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I would find somewhere in the 30-40ms range to be acceptable at best. You might not notice it as much playing certain PS3 / XBOX 360 titles, but when you hook up a computer with a fast paced FPS title, you sure will. Especially when coming from a 120hz monitor where you are used to ~10ms of lag.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Really? THIS is the ghosting everyone's been concerned about? Look closely and you can see the L just a tiny bit... I didn't realize it, but the nosepiece of the glasses kinda covered up the left side 'l' dots, they were still very hard to see, but a little easier than the bottom of the big "L" in the pic. Taking pics through glasses is tough

Anyway, if this is worse than the HD33, the HD33 must be gorram near perfect, and a significant improvement over the already quite amazing pro350w. And again, it comes back to my point - let's qualify what A>B actually means - as you can see, it definitely does NOT mean ghosting on B is bad.


Anyway, I gotta do some mods to my PJ box and mount before I can do more, and I've got a lan party coming up. so no idea if I'll get any more testing done 'til Monday. But, I just got confirmation that the RF glasses and emitter will be here Friday, so when I *do* get to test, I'll test them

Later, happy projecting to me

Kudos to you for these pictures....who says pictues are not worth a thousand words ?

can you please also try out the other game shot where you saw ghosting on your DLP ?

also if you do see any ghosting in other material, can you tune your RF and see if it eliminates it ?
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post


Really? THIS is the ghosting everyone's been concerned about? Look closely and you can see the L just a tiny bit... I didn't realize it, but the nosepiece of the glasses kinda covered up the left side 'l' dots, they were still very hard to see, but a little easier than the bottom of the big "L" in the pic. Taking pics through glasses is tough

Anyway, if this is worse than the HD33, the HD33 must be gorram near perfect, and a significant improvement over the already quite amazing pro350w. And again, it comes back to my point - let's qualify what A>B actually means - as you can see, it definitely does NOT mean ghosting on B is bad.

Anyway, I gotta do some mods to my PJ box and mount before I can do more, and I've got a lan party coming up. so no idea if I'll get any more testing done 'til Monday. But, I just got confirmation that the RF glasses and emitter will be here Friday, so when I *do* get to test, I'll test them

Later, happy projecting to me

Thanks for posting this. Your experience seems much more inline with PR's take (minimal ghosting) vs PC which stated the ghosting was very noticeable. It will be intersecting what impact the RF glasses and emitter have on the minor ghosting you do see. If it improves on it, the 3010 should be an easy pick for me.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:44 PM
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3dfan: Yes, I'll try all that, but I don't like having it on the floor like this, so I'm going to get it mounted first -I've got a custom made projector mount to the beams in my ceiling, but I'm going to have to re-fabricate the pieces that run across as the new PJ is on a completely different pattern (as expected). Plus, like I said, tomorrow and saturday will be crazy busy prepping. So if all goes well I might get a chance to do more testing tomorrow, if not it may be Sunday.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:53 PM
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Oh, one quick note - the only thing I could see that related to what PC called 'flicker' was, with glasses off and a 3d image being displayed, I really could see a bit of a flickering. With glasses on I couldn't see it, but with them off I could. It's a bit similar to the flickering you can see in a flourescent light, but maybe a little bit more subtle. Maybe it has to do with the frame blanking? I definitely didn't see anything like that with the DLP proj. Either way I don't really consider it an issue since I didn't see it with the glasses, and it definitely didn't show up in any 2d image, but it's possible that it's there with the glasses on and I'm just not seeing it; people's perceptions are different.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:59 PM
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Maybe the glasses lost signal and he started seeing flickering?

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 10-20-2011, 10:17 PM
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The pro350w image is much lighter than the Epson. Did this have a longer exposure? The fact that the 3D images are brighter than the 2D images in both indicate that something is changing on the camera.

Same test patterns (different glasses) for the Optoma HD33: http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/298-Optoma-HD33-5.html
Again, the problem with comparing these and the above pics is that the shutter speeds and sensitivity to capturing crosstalk could again be different.

Also, with regard to convergence, I take it that motorized pixel alignment isn't necessary since nobody has mentioned color fringing.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 311mtb View Post

what about going with its predecessor, the 8700UB? They're going for like $1800-$1900 and still come with the spare bulb offer. Looks to be a fine 2D projector right in the middle price-wise

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

I would go with the 8700, but the 5010 is much brighter in best mode for my 135" screen (larger when I go to 2.4 AR). If you have a smaller screen, want better blacks, and don't want 3D, the 8700 is the obvious choice.


I currently own the 8700 and have a 138" screen. The 8700 is marginal for a screen that size even if you go with a 1.3 gain screen. 550 lumens in THX mode with 55 square feet is 10 ftL. with a 1.3 gain screen you get 13 ftL. Acceptable, but no room for bulb dimming. 16 ftL would be optimal. You can go with a calibrated Dynamic or LR mode, but those modes don't calibrate perfectly. Better than an uncalibrated PJ, but not THX level for sure. Even going with a 3010 in eco mode, no room for lamp dimming if you use a .8 gain screen. 923 Lumens, 55 square feet, .8 gain screen equals 13 ftL.

if the 5010 does everything that it seems it will, you're looking at 1100 lumens in eco mode calibrated very close to THX level. that gives you 16 ftL with a .8 screen. Still no room for bulb dimming if you want to use eco and want optimal ftL. Even with the 5010 you'll end up in Normal mode on the lamp, but with lots of room to adjust for bulb dimming.

Add in pixel adjustment and improved motion handling and the 5010 should be a significant step up from the 8700.

There would be virtually no cost to Epson to add one model to the lineup. Just disable 3D on the 5010. This is common practice in many industries. It's not a matter of how much the PJ costs to produce; I guarantee you the 5010 is at the very most $100 more in production cost than the 3010. (And probably not even that.) It would give them a projector in the $2300 price range, just like the 8700 was. Personally, I think they'd add a lot of sales with the move, but I understand they obviously don't think so. Oh well.... I'm just saying I'd like to see it.

On another note:

To say either the 3010 or the 5010 is too bright for a 100" screen is ludicrous. Using a .8 gain screen you're looking at around 23 or 24 ftL, easily calibrated down to 16 ftL. Plus you have LOTS of room to adjust upwards as the bulb dims. Plus you can watch movies with lots of ambient light at 24 ftL. Plus you could go with an even darker screen, improving your PQ even more. Perhaps if the caveat "If you have a high gain screen already" was included I could understand. The ability to use a low gain screen--which will have higher PQ than a high gain screen--is a major benefit of the new Epsons. To claim it is a drawback places the entire PC review in question for me. Just saying...
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Old 10-21-2011, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuk View Post

The pro350w image is much lighter than the Epson. Did this have a longer exposure? The fact that the 3D images are brighter than the 2D images in both indicate that something is changing on the camera.

Same test patterns (different glasses) for the Optoma HD33: http://www.audiovideohd.fr/tests/298-Optoma-HD33-5.html
Again, the problem with comparing these and the above pics is that the shutter speeds and sensitivity to capturing crosstalk could again be different.

Also, with regard to convergence, I take it that motorized pixel alignment isn't necessary since nobody has mentioned color fringing.

Actually, good point, the camera shutter was on auto... Come to think of it I don't know what the room light was like for either pic either. I'll try them again with a fixed shutter speed and a set amount of ambient once everything is put together (though the 350 will be in the floor instead of the epson this time ).
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Tempting to try it, but now I've got the two pair of IR glasses that come with the epson plus one more pair of the panasonic m-3di glasses ordered... and besides, like I said, I don't anticipate sync loss issues with IR.

Did you receive your Panasonic glasses? Did it work with the Epson?
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:16 AM
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Haven't gotten any glasses other than the ones that came with it so far. Should get the RFs today, but I don't know when the panasonic pair will get here.

I think I might have gotten one of the 'early' units, since the iris is a bit loud. Won't be an issue once my box is back in place, and probably won't be an issue with future units, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Also, here was a strange one. When I had a nearly full black PC screen on the display ( my desktop is a starfield), it had a strange 'buzzing'. Not loud, but noticeable. Turned the projector's internal volume all the way down and it went away though. Really odd, but I didn't need projector speakers anyway.

I'll keep playing and report back as I find stuff out
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

I agree that its disappointing, but like I said, I think I had some processing going on, so don't judge it too harsh just yet... I'll dig in a little deeper when time permits.

FI (such that it is) on or off?
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:35 AM
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amazon has them up and they ae 2k and 2.2k depending on wireless hd so i will be going with hd33 as i dont see 700 dollars better here.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

amazon has them up and they ae 2k and 2.2k depending on wireless hd so i will be going with hd33 as i dont see 700 dollars better here.

Why would you overpay 400-500 dollars for the epson 3010 from Amazon when you can get it from a forum sponsor or, even better, from AVS for the roughly the same price as the hd33?
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:05 AM
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Because amzon ship for 3 bucks for overnight as i am prime and if i hate it i send it back they pay shipping and i get refunded within 24hrs of them getting it. Small business cannot do this and I think small business need to stay local for service as online they cant compete. You are right amazon is overcharging maybe when its in stock the price adjust. If any forum sponsors can offer no question asked full refund and pay shipping back if i hate it pm me I will buy from you.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:15 AM
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Because amzon ship for 3 bucks for overnight as i am prime and if i hate it i send it back they pay shipping and i get refunded within 24hrs of them getting it. Small business cannot do this and I think small business need to stay local for service as online they cant compete. You are right amazon is overcharging maybe when its in stock the price adjust. If any forum sponsors can offer no question asked full refund and pay shipping back if i hate it pm me I will buy from you.

ProjectorPeople offer full refund as long as you have less than 4 hours on the lamp. You will pay return shipping, but this seems like a small price to pay vs paying $400-500 more for something if you decide to keep it.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:18 AM
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not to get off topic but 4hrs seems very low to me, 2 movies and you are married to it. I am a single guy, not into being tied down except on friday nights.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

not to get off topic but 4hrs seems very low to me, 2 movies and you are married to it. I am a single guy, not into being tied down except on friday nights.

My advice would be to have some of the most challenging scenes ready to go and spend a few hours on those to determine if you like the projector. You can go up to 10 hours of use on the projector and still get a refund through projector people, but they charge you a 15% restocking fee for anything between 4-10 hours.

VisualApex also has a good return policy:
http://www.visualapex.com/support/#Return

At any rate it is your money.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

Because amzon ship for 3 bucks for overnight as i am prime and if i hate it i send it back they pay shipping and i get refunded within 24hrs of them getting it. Small business cannot do this and I think small business need to stay local for service as online they cant compete. You are right amazon is overcharging maybe when its in stock the price adjust. If any forum sponsors can offer no question asked full refund and pay shipping back if i hate it pm me I will buy from you.

Amazon is very good at prices being in line with other sellers....I bet they are just quoting MSRP and will bring down the price when they have them in stock. At any rate they have a link called "tell us about a lower price?" in "Product Details" section.....I submitted all 3 prices (visualpex, PP, ebay) and hope that they will lower the price...especially if many of us do as it indicates to them how many buyers are interested. Keep in mind, ultimately Epson is selling it through Amazon and so they should lower the price to 1599 soon
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Old 10-21-2011, 11:01 AM
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Amazon is very good at prices being in line with other sellers....I bet they are just quoting MSRP and will bring down the price when they have them in stock. At any rate they have a link called "tell us about a lower price?" in "Product Details" section.....I submitted all 3 prices (visualpex, PP, ebay) and hope that they will lower the price...especially if many of us do as it indicates to them how many buyers are interested. Keep in mind, ultimately Epson is selling it through Amazon and so they should lower the price to 1599 soon

Thanks good advice and well done for letting them know all smiles on this end
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:44 PM
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Moar pics time! I **REALLY** should be prepping for the lan party, but dammit I got a new toy! The monster glasses came in pretty early, so I thought, "I got time for a *little* testing, right?"

(as a note, about 15 minutes ago the last batch of paints for my screen paint mix just got here a few minutes ago - I *KNOW* I don't have time for that yet though )

So anyhoo --

I got the monster kit that includes the emitter and one pair of glasses. It comes with an IR interpreter so the emitter is compatible with any display with an IR emitter, supposedly. (One important note to anyone using it this way! the emitter needs USB power unless it's hooked up to a 3-pin vesa connection. The epson's USB port wouldn't drive my emitter, so I had to get a 5v USB plug-in like you'd use for a phone charger; cost me $10 at target). Since the epson uses IR glasses, my assumption was that it would be compatible. First hurdle shows up before I even open the box... where's the emitter???

To this point I still haven't figured out where it is. But that brings me to another important point --- in trying to figure out where it was, I also tried to make my IR glasses lose sync...... I couldn't do it. I could not, in any place where I could still see the screen, make the glasses lose sync. Anybody else tried this? Really surprised me - I mean I was happy with my dlp links because they were hard to lose sync with, but not NEARLY this hard. These things are pretty impressive in their capacity to pick up IR.

So anyway - the monster emitter does this thing where it blinks a knight rider style red led back and forth pattern while it's searching for an IR signal, then turns all to a number of green LEDs indicating how good the signal is. I had a 3d test image on the screen when I plugged it in - with wires hanging loose, mind you - and it flashed red for <2 seconds, then turned 5-dots (max) green. Ok, that's good, but still, where's the IR emitter????
I never did find it, so I ended up just hanging the sensor in front of the pj :P



I spent about 20 minutes playing with the tuning, and in the end it was kinda ...meh, bout the same as the epsons.


Now for comparisons!
Epson glasses on test pattern (clearer shot of the test pattern so you can see the circleys, too). [[NOTE- viewing these with the naked eye showed less ghosting than these pictures show; more on that in a sec]]:



RF glasses on the test pattern:



Now notice something in those pics. The outer portions of the image are not as well-separated as the center, right? On either of them. So I did some playing around... And figured out that (no surprise given the arguments I've presented before), the glasses are pretty much the cause of what little ghosting there is If you move the angle of the glasses relating to your eye, you can reduce the ghosting to invisible anywhere in the image, but not across the entire image. But the big thing is, if they're not perfectly aligned, it gets MUCH worse. Example:
Epson skewed:

RF skewed:



I believe that's why I was having a hard time getting pics as good as what I was seeing through the glasses; they were never aligned just right in relation to the camera lens. Also, it seems like the RF glasses are more succeptible to this than the epsons, but that's just based on "I move it around and kinda subjectively evaluate", so I reserve the right to change my mind on that once I've spent some more time with it.



Anyway! I hope this is helping. I'll come back with more detail Monday, including more controlled pics of the old DLP vs the epson (unless somebody gets better comparison pics before then )


*EDIT* picasa's having issues, but I'd already typed all this up darnit... I'll edit the post as soon as I get the pics going.
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:41 PM
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ok, I gotta ask - what kind of mount did you subject this poor projector to? Are you posting from some sort of post-apocalyptic future, where people cobble stuff together from the wreckage of society???
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:22 PM
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Thanks Defiancecp. Looks pretty good when you get the glasses lined up. Do you think that some of the crosstalk seen in the PC review might be due to how the glasses fit the reviewer? If they aren't parallel to the screen there will be more crosstalk?

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:32 PM
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Maybe so, at least that's my guess. From the few minutes of fiddling around I did, it could get to the point where ghosting was below what I could see, but if I moved the glasses around on my head (with either glasses) I could get it to where it looked pretty bad.

LOL - my mount is made of angle iron, threaded rod, etc. It's braced directly to the rafters at 4 points. I used several different commercial ceiling mounts, and with every one they would wiggle sometimes. So I made this one. I can do pullups off this one if I want, no wiggling at all. Looks bad, but that's why (well, that plus more silence) I put the box around it (though it's not there now since I'm moving stuff around). Here's what it looks like when the cosmetic covers are all in place (this pic is from when I was painting, so the fan ports and lens port are taped over, but you get the idea)

Now the taped-on IR sensor? THAT'S cobbled together No tape in the final product
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post


Now for comparisons!
Epson glasses on test pattern (clearer shot of the test pattern so you can see the circleys, too). [[NOTE- viewing these with the naked eye showed less ghosting than these pictures show; more on that in a sec]]:

Now notice something in those pics. The outer portions of the image are not as well-separated as the center, right? On either of them. So I did some playing around... And figured out that (no surprise given the arguments I've presented before), the glasses are pretty much the cause of what little ghosting there is If you move the angle of the glasses relating to your eye, you can reduce the ghosting to invisible anywhere in the image, but not across the entire image. But the big thing is, if they're not perfectly aligned, it gets MUCH worse.

I believe that's why I was having a hard time getting pics as good as what I was seeing through the glasses; they were never aligned just right in relation to the camera lens. Also, it seems like the RF glasses are more succeptible to this than the epsons, but that's just based on "I move it around and kinda subjectively evaluate", so I reserve the right to change my mind on that once I've spent some more time with it.


Anyway! I hope this is helping. I'll come back with more detail Monday, including more controlled pics of the old DLP vs the epson (unless somebody gets better comparison pics before then )


*EDIT* picasa's having issues, but I'd already typed all this up darnit... I'll edit the post as soon as I get the pics going.

defiancecp, not to start any controversy in an EPson thread but I dont see any cross talk with my DLP-link glasses on my HD33 at any angle. Again cant judge how they look to your eyes, but looking at these photos tells me that there is more crosstalk compared to the photos on the german review of HD33 which shows no faint images.

also another point to note is that if you need RF glasses to tune out every bit of crosstalk, then it beats the whole purpose of cost advantage with Epson giving 2 paris of glasses for $100 more.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:04 PM
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defiancecp, not to start any controversy in an EPson thread but I dont see any cross talk with my DLP-link glasses on my HD33 at any angle. Again cant judge how they look to your eyes, but looking at these photos tells me that there is more crosstalk compared to the photos on the german review of HD33 which shows no faint images.

also another point to note is that if you need RF glasses to tune out every bit of crosstalk, then it beats the whole purpose of cost advantage with Epson giving 2 paris of glasses for $100 more.

You didn't read my testing of the RF glasses they came out about even with the ones that came with it, only the RFs were more sensitive to being angled. Both were able to get extremely low ghosting images.

Also, note the pictures above, angling the glasses makes ghosting, holding them flat makes extremely low ghosting (with either glasses). Personally, I'm not sure how that could possibly be a projector issue Having said that, those particular findings were all on the RF & epson ir glasses, and were all tested on the LCD, not the DLP, so when I get more time to test stuff, I'll test the dlp link glasses on the DLP for the same thing.

Again, note that I couldn't get the camera to reflect what I was seeing, though; The entire image was consistent with the central part ( where you really have to squint to make out anything at all (can you make out the big "R" in that first pic? I think I might be able to make out an outline...), but for some reason the camera is more sensitive to the angle than my eye is. Actually, I bet I know what that is, now that I'm thinking about it - I had it so the camera lens was right up against the glasses, so when you look out toward the edge of the picture, the path through the glasses is at an extreme angle. I bet if I pull the glasses back 2-3", so it's similar to the distance your eye is from the glasses, it would be more consistent with a viewer's results...

I'll have to try that too


Oh! and one quick clarification - I'm not talking about 'viewing' angle - I'm talking about the angle of the glasses in relation to the line of sight. So this would be like, for example, picking up the glasses off your ears a few inches so you're looking through them and they're at an angle to your face. Try that and you'll see what I mean
That happens to a some extent just from moving your head around, so even though you'd never pull the glasses up to a 45* angle normally, it's still a valid test to see how sensitive they are to that kind of movement.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:59 PM
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alot of excuses being made for the epson. I am now thinking Art's wait for second version was due to crosstalk, does anyone know if the other reviewers had a new update or engineering sample ? did they change firmware after the first shipment was already gone ? The first batch are loaded with bad firmware.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:06 PM
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Oh! and one quick clarification - I'm not talking about 'viewing' angle - I'm talking about the angle of the glasses in relation to the line of sight. So this would be like, for example, picking up the glasses off your ears a few inches so you're looking through them and they're at an angle to your face. Try that and you'll see what I mean
That happens to a some extent just from moving your head around, so even though you'd never pull the glasses up to a 45* angle normally, it's still a valid test to see how sensitive they are to that kind of movement.

Yes I understood exactly what you meant and let me reiterates, on my HD33 + Optoma-DLP-link I dont see any ghosting at any such "angle of the glasses in relation to the line of sight"
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:56 PM
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alot of excuses being made for the epson. I am now thinking Art's wait for second version was due to crosstalk, does anyone know if the other reviewers had a new update or engineering sample ? did they change firmware after the first shipment was already gone ? The first batch are loaded with bad firmware.

I thought the issue with the engineering sample was a noisy iris... unless we're all looking for conspiracy theories.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:19 PM
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alot of excuses being made for the epson.

what excuses are you talking about? I don't see where there's any need for excuses for a projector that performs this exceptionally well. The only anomaly I've found is if you put the glasses at an extreme angle, and who really cares? I probably just muddied the waters bringing it up, but I wanted to be completely forthcoming. Incidentally who wants to bet when I test dlp link glasses on a dlp projector, it will do the same? But come on, it really matters very little. Meanwhile, the hd33 is an extremely good projector, so why don't you guys go watch yours instead of trying to second guess owners of a different extremely good projector? Its getting a bit annoying.

And yes, one of the reviews specified that the change was the Iris.
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