New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 01:34 AM
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This is quite a lot. I would like to play 3D games on the screen, and this would seem to me that probably prevented. The situation regarding the HD33 is better but there is still 30ms. If you look on Optoma GT750 so there is no lag. In this case, it is here I'll have to decide whether I want to play and getting a DLP projector or LCD and reconcile with lag. Do you ever have any idea?
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post #782 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 04:01 AM
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could somebody please enlighten me why less lag is important and what are OK values?
I have a 8350, how is the lag with that one and how do I measure that?
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post #783 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

And if you don't have an 8350, nor do you have $3,000 to spend on a pj, that's yet another story. I can come up with scenarios where just about any product is better than another product, so long as the requirements are a particular way, but spreading FUD about some imaginary problem with LCD ghosting isn't really justified by any of them. If you're in a situation where you want great 2d, great 3d, excellent game response time, and have good light control in the room, the HD33 has a clear advantage. If you need a good bit of extra brightness and you're ok with a less-than-optimal (60ms-ish) lag, the epson is a great choice. etc.etc.etc. - but you keep going back again and again to DLP in general being superior due to a lack of ghosting, but as I've shown in pics earlier, the DLP unit I have tested did not show any significant advantage in that respect. Opinions are fine, but when they conflict with fact they should be reexamined.

Again, I have no information at all about whether the HD33 is better than the 3010 as far as ghosting is concerned, but I can guarantee that the pro350w is NOT - which negates the blanket statement that DLPs in general are superior in this regard.

I am just letting people know if your a gamer the Epson is a no go, why lie to people its just not good enough. Slow response time will translate into other problems in sports viewing. I have now watched this projector for 5 hrs and I have to say for picture quality and movie watching only its the choice. Its for married guys that only get to game a few hrs a week but buy stuff that the picture on movies get wifey approval all others look elsewhere.

I game 20 hrs a week min gaming to me is more important than watching the same 5 3d movies over and over
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post #784 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 06:59 AM
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So you think that's enough for výkendového players? Otherwise, what is the quality of the movie's enough?
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post #785 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

I am just letting people know if your a gamer the Epson is a no go, why lie to people its just not good enough. Slow response time will translate into other problems in sports viewing. I have now watched this projector for 5 hrs and I have to say for picture quality and movie watching only its the choice. Its for married guys that only get to game a few hrs a week but buy stuff that the picture on movies get wifey approval all others look elsewhere.

I game 20 hrs a week min gaming to me is more important than watching the same 5 3d movies over and over

Why would it matter for sports? Still, it's pretty significant for gaming. I don't think I've lied to anyone, that's been what I've said all along.


For those that asked about lag significance, 60ms is playable with non-competitive games, but competitive FPS gaming (for example), where your response time is very critical, that would be a problem. 30ms is a reasonable number, but some really twitchy people could still notice. <10 is excellent. The 720p optoma DLP I used previously had no measurable lag (pretty much dead on with my 5ms monitor), so if gaming is your priority, gt750/hd66/pro350w/etc are really much better choices.

The way to measure lag is to get a monitor with extremely low display lag (the specs are published for monitors, a good one is <5ms), preferably with the same native resolution as the projector. Connect both and put windows in 'duplicate these displays' mode. Then start a lag test screen like this one:
http://tft.vanity.dk/inputlag.html
Then get a camera with a fast shutter speed , start the timer, and take a pic. The fast monitor will probably have a bit of a lead on the projector, so you'll see the 'clock' ahead on the monitor than on the projector. The difference in times is the difference in display lag between the two displays.
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post #786 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 07:32 AM
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And that's a problem, my wife has a problem with RBE. So for me that DLP does not seem too into account. I read somewhere that HD33/3300 situation is better with RBE. But can you believe it? That's what I wanted to buy a LCD projector 3D. The projector I would like to use mainly for video projection and then to play 3D games through the PS3.
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post #787 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 07:59 AM
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So is the 60ms on the Epson, and 30ms on the Optima are similar to Response time on LCD Monitors?

I had no idea the response time was so high on a projector. It seems you would definitely notice that, especially if you are used to watching a 2ms LED TV.
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post #788 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jowens1126 View Post

My wife and I have been looking at creating a theater room in our front room that we never use. Its pretty much perfect for a small theater room. SO I have been doing research on TV's and Projectors. Ive been crunching the numbers and have come to 2 choices. The Epson 3010e or a Mitsubishi 82" DLP tv. I went and rented a Mitsubishi 73" yesterday that will be here tommorow. Im gonna see how it looks and get a feel for it. Its a pretty good way to see if you like a product if you ask me. $100 for one month, or buy one for $3500. I say renting is the way to go to see if you like it, then buy a new higher end version from someone else. But I digress.

Looking at the price of the 82" TV, I can get the following instead.

projector - Epson Pro Cinema 3010e $1800
100" Screen Vapex Electric 100" $319
3d glasses x 3 pair @ 99.00 each $297
HDMI Cable - 25' $49
Mirage MX 5.1 Speaker system $699.99
Sony BDP-S780 3D Blue Ray player $225
Apple Airport Extreme Router $179.00
USB Wireless N Adaptor - Cisco AE2500 $39.99

Total $3608.98

So for the price of the DLP TV I can get a whole home theater with an electric screen and state of the art 3d projector with wireless HDMI included. Thats pretty hard to beat. So I did some extensive measurements today and laid it all out on TurboCad.
My room is only 11'6" wide. This is my biggest handicap. The minimum distance on the Epson for a 100" screen is 9'8". When I measure out placing the projector on a table and placing the screen where it needs to go, I end up having to have the projector no more than 2" from the back wall. This gives me a throw distance from the front of the lense to the Screen of 9'8 1/2". Only 1/2" to play with. Also, I will not be able to ceiling mount the unit, I have to use it on a shelf or table. I cannot sit it directly in front of the screen because this is where the seating is, and the bottom of the projector will end up being even with the bottom of the screen. The only way around this I see is to move the projector laterally 39" off center to the screen. According to the Manual the projector can compensate for up to a 30° angle lateral shift. This comes out to 62" either side of center at the 9'8" distance.

I really hate having to use keystone to correct this, but I see no other way to mount a projector in this space. Does anyone know if you have to turn the projector at an angle toward the screen when you mount it like this? Or do you keep it pointing straight? Im thinking you need to turn it, but im just not sure. Ive never seen one operated like this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jowens1126 View Post

Here is the layout showing the room. The 2 Angles you see are 17° off center for the projector, and 30° which is the limit of adjustability of the keystone.
One good thing moving off to the side did, was increase the distance to the screen from 9'8 1/2" to 10' 1 1/2". I feel a little better about being able to get the picture to fit the 100" screen now.

The manual states the minimum throw distance for a 100" picture is 9'8".

Does this set up look acceptable/correct to you experts?

Monday Bump.
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post #789 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jowens1126 View Post

So is the 60ms on the Epson, and 30ms on the Optima are similar to Response time on LCD Monitors?

I had no idea the response time was so high on a projector. It seems you would definitely notice that, especially if you are used to watching a 2ms LED TV.

A computer monitor for gaming shoudl be less than 5ms or its laggy so given this info you should easily see 60ms is not gonna cut it at all. Espon is no good for gaming period no way around it, no sugar coating or reviewers. I also think more people game on these projectors than watch movies and the reviewers need to get with the times. Stop running same old movies and play some madden or cod or battlefield. If your buying to wtach 1080p blurays not 3d then its great but why spend so much with so many downsides. Its not for gamers anyone prove different go ahead, I played games on it and have first hand experience. Its not on my list anymore !
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post #790 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 08:45 AM
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Incidentally, I'm being stupid I need to test with my avr taken out of the loop... Not sure if it'll matter, but it might.
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post #791 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Incidentally, I'm being stupid I need to test with my avr taken out of the loop... Not sure if it'll matter, but it might.

Ooops. Maybe. Might be worth a new test or two. (Face it. You just like doing all this testing don't you?)

More news on the 5010e would be welcome from anyone.
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post #792 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

A computer monitor for gaming shoudl be less than 5ms or its laggy so given this info you should easily see 60ms is not gonna cut it at all. Espon is no good for gaming period no way around it, no sugar coating or reviewers. I also think more people game on these projectors than watch movies and the reviewers need to get with the times. Stop running same old movies and play some madden or cod or battlefield. If your buying to wtach 1080p blurays not 3d then its great but why spend so much with so many downsides. Its not for gamers anyone prove different go ahead, I played games on it and have first hand experience. Its not on my list anymore !

I agree, it would be nice for reviewers to provide a quick test on gaming and response times. That said, if I did game at all on this projector it would be very limited. The rest of my viewing is either movies or TV. I would daresay that many people have the same usage as me. As for 3D, I want to buy a 3D capable projector because I hope more and more native content is available in 3D. I have DirectTV and Blu-Ray and between those two there is some content out there now, and I hope to see more in the future so it would be nice to have a capable (good, does not need to be great) projector that does 3D and a projector that does 2D very well.
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post #793 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I agree, it would be nice for reviewers to provide a quick test on gaming and response times. That said, if I did game at all on this projector it would be very limited. The rest of my viewing is either movies or TV. I would daresay that many people have the same usage as me. As for 3D, I want to buy a 3D capable projector because I hope more and more native content is available in 3D. I have DirectTV and Blu-Ray and between those two there is some content out there now, and I hope to see more in the future so it would be nice to have a capable (good, does not need to be great) projector that does 3D and a projector that does 2D very well.

Save your money and buy a gt750 as it suits your needs better TV is horrible source material and not 1080 so no benefit to you except bluray. IF you watch alot of blurays yes its worth it. I still think more people game than alot of you older guys realize. I cant for once think these only sell to people with media rooms, if you have a dedicated room i am sure you would buy something better than a cheap 1.5k projector. If I had a dedicated room I would be looking at 10k projectors for a fixed install. These are family room projectors.
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post #794 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

Save your money and buy a gt750 as it suits your needs better TV is horrible source material and not 1080 so no benefit to you except bluray. IF you watch alot of blurays yes its worth it. I still think more people game than alot of you older guys realize. I cant for once think these only sell to people with media rooms, if you have a dedicated room i am sure you would buy something better than a cheap 1.5k projector. If I had a dedicated room I would be looking at 10k projectors for a fixed install. These are family room projectors.

DirectTV actually offers 1080p source material. I watch tons of Blu-Ray movies. I own about 500 and rent a lot too Vudu also offers higher bitrate 1080p content.

I will have a PS3 hooked up to this PJ, but since I have three kids now, my gaming is very limited (the kids mostly use the Wii that is hooked upstairs). I don't have a dedicated media room per say. This PJ will be in my basement family room/bar area. I do have dark walls and a dark floor but the ceiling is white and will negate many of the benefits of a projector that has more contrast. I also think that 3D projector technology is in its infancy and will greatly improve over the next 2-3 years so I am not really keen on dropping $3-4K on a projector knowing the technology is improving so quickly. So I would rather spend $1500 or so and get decent capability now and then put that $1500-2000 in savings towards a future upgrade in 2-3 years.
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post #795 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by c-69 View Post

could somebody please enlighten me why less lag is important and what are OK values?
I have a 8350, how is the lag with that one and how do I measure that?

Lag is only important for video games. If you're not an avid video gamer, don't worry. Mild gaming, like with a Wii, no big deal either. Recievers add lag too. For movies you just adjust the delay in the sound, at the AVR, to match.
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post #796 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

I do not think you need to wait. I doubt you will see any of this "crosstalk" in normal viewing of any DLP units. DLP displays have been doing this for years now while LCD and LCOS are still trying to figure it out. Seriously, why are we still discussing this? DLP has been doing this just fine or we would not even have 3D today because it would be a failure.

Did you view the video of the crosstalk section? There is no crosstalk. Look at the JVC video and then come back. DLP is DLP. It is the same tech. Some have more RBE but the crosstalk thing is not in the equation. My 3 year old DLP TV has zero ghosting. What else can I say here.

Mike, I have read many many of your comments where you praise DLP's 3D and explicitly state your disgust for LCD' 3D....

being a HD33 owner, I will completely agree with your DLP comments

however, I dont understand why you keep putting down Epson 3010 without really owing one ? I have been keenly reading the Epson posts and all the initial photos shown by some brave volunteers show very little ghosting...contrary to the PC's review

now that says something....if indeed Epson got their act together, I see it as a huge win for 3D enthusiasts as now they have 2 products to choose from and it can only help DLP camp in the long run as they compete with LCD in other areas.

coming back to Epson, if they indeed solved their crosstalk issues, this could be a nice PJ for someone looking for daytime viewing and also for someone who care about deeper blacklevels in 2D and for someone who find the additional features they offer useful.
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post #797 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jowens1126 View Post

I had no idea the response time was so high on a projector. It seems you would definitely notice that, especially if you are used to watching a 2ms LED TV.

Where are you getting that 2ms number from? Input lag is not "pixel response" like the product documentation shows. No manufacturer shows the input lag numbers - it's up to us to discover them. There is no modern television with numbers anywhere near 2ms.

No television is as fast as the Sharp TVs with "vyper drive" - all 16ms or less. For gamers, this is your only choice, other than some older plasmas.

=Tommy v2=
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post #798 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Mike, I have read many many of your comments where you praise DLP's 3D and explicitly state your disgust for LCD' 3D....

being a HD33 owner, I will completely agree with your DLP comments

however, I dont understand why you keep putting down Epson 3010 without really owing one ? I have been keenly reading the Epson posts and all the initial photos shown by some brave volunteers show very little ghosting...contrary to the PC's review

now that says something....if indeed Epson got their act together, I see it as a huge win for 3D enthusiasts as now they have 2 products to choose from and it can only help DLP camp in the long run as they compete with LCD in other areas.

coming back to Epson, if they indeed solved their crosstalk issues, this could be a nice PJ for someone looking for daytime viewing and also for someone who care about deeper blacklevels in 2D and for someone who find the additional features they offer useful.

I agree and apologize. See my post in the other thread. I want to like the Epson and was disappointed when I looked at the 3d test patterns of the different PJs from worftv. Admittedly I did not see one for the Epson. Guess I was just frustrated because the Epson has some features I really like. At least my posts have prompted some good favorable responses for the 3010 which actually has this back on my list potentially.
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post #799 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jhunt17 View Post

I actually saw a 3010 at best buy today! I thought these things were hard to find. Didn't expect to see it there.

I went to my local Best Buy today (Pearland, TX) and they checked inventory. There were two of them at the store somewhere. I had him track one down for me and used my 10% off coupon (In post office movers package) plus will get reward points too! Also used AMEX for more reward points!! And I double checked the return policy... (Note: every store in the area showed 2 in stock)

I don't have a screen yet but will be projecting tonight to determine if I want 133" or 150".

Next I will need a 3D Blu-Ray player to work with this. I need 2 HDMI outs and would like 2D - 3D conversion as well as depth adjustment might be nice since I will be setting pretty close to a huge screen! (Distance of about 12' to 15' away)

Any suggestions on a Blu-Ray player? My research indicates Panasonic DMP-BDT310 or Samsung BD-D6700?

I'm coming from using a Planar PD7150 DLP on a 133" HiPower at my last house. I loved it! Woot special
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post #800 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

I agree and apologize. See my post in the other thread. I want to like the Epson and was disappointed when I looked at the 3d test patterns of the different PJs from worftv. Admittedly I did not see one for the Epson. Guess I was just frustrated because the Epson has some features I really like. At least my posts have prompted some good favorable responses for the 3010 which actually has this back on my list potentially.

Nice to see you come around

These user reviews are just awesome....they cover a whole lot than professional reviewers as each person is looking for a (slightly) different thing.

Indeed defiance is doing a great job in bringing out the pros/cons of 3010. For example, he just talked about high lag on LCD....now that would put yet another thing for the end user's head to tradeoff with DLP !

also I would like to see a comparison of perceived blacks and contrast of 3010 vs 3300 as the specs/numbers indicate the former is poorer owing to lower ANSI and disabled Iris...Defiance please post your observations !

I hate choices
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post #801 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jowens1126 View Post

Monday Bump.

This seems like a lot of compromise to me for a not so much bigger screen. I don't know where you are buying but Amazon has the Mitsubishi 82" 3D DLP for $2600 shipped. Also you may want to wait for sales in Q4 as you can sometimes find these DLP's on great sales.
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post #802 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:45 AM
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Has anyone tested the 3010e vs the 3010? Just wondering if the wireless option stacks up well against an HDMI cable.
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post #803 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 AM
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Has anyone tested the 3010e vs the 3010? Just wondering if the wireless option stacks up well against an HDMI cable.

projectorcentral and projectorreview both tested the wireless option and they both stated it work flawlessly.
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post #804 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 12:29 PM
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I had a Epson 8100 for over a year, and it looked good. When the 8350 came out i was like great just month old and and new model came out but the 8350 has very little black improvement so i was cool. Well my family wanted 3d so my luck my projector was getting the red blobs on the corner and was able to switch it out last week. i was about to get the 8350 but 3010 was there too. After reading all the reviews here and websites i choose the 3010. 1. smaller body compared to the 8100. Still heavy. 2. the auto Iris is much approved compared to the 8100 and works fast. I mean the room goes completely black. And it does not make much noise compared to the 8100. 3. Color is better and Contrast is better on the 3010 vs the 8100. The extra lumens makes the picture better. It is a super bright image compared to the 8100 in eco mode. I mean destroyed the 8100 in brightness and my room is dark. So hurts the eyes a little when playing xbox games. 4. The blacks is a little, I mean little lighter than the 8100 but the color and Much Cleaner image makes up for that. My wife said it looks like the Movie theater. I played a many blurays and the first thing i noticed it was clean no image noise just clean crisp image just like a good LCD TV. 5. Okay There is Input Lag on the 3010, It takes a wile for it to fine the HDMI connections. BUT THERE IS NO GAMING LAG WITH THE XBOX 360 NONE!!! I Played Modern Warfare 2 for a Hour and Gears of War 3 four days and NO LAG NO GHOSTING NOTHING. Works Great and Kills the 8100 in Game Picture Quality it just looks Clean Bright HD Picture Period. 6. 3D Looks better if not brighter than the movie theaters. Nice Detailed 3d picture and no lag or crosstalk there. So is it better than the epson 8100 yes because of newer technology that epson put in this projector. Do i miss the lens shift? Yes i miss that but after taking maybe a longer time to setup this one up its better overall. Again Clean Bright HD pictures with about the same black level of the 8100 but with more lumens. Best Projector under $1600. And Yes I had a DLP projector before too and LCD is just fine compared to DLP technology. I think lcd has a lower DB in noise and better color. But again its just me so Again NO LAG IN GAMING NOR GHOSTING FOR Game Consoles. Bluray looks great
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post #805 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 01:16 PM
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BUT THERE IS NO GAMING LAG WITH THE XBOX 360 NONE!!! I Played Modern Warfare 2 for a Hour and Gears of War 3 four days and NO LAG NO GHOSTING NOTHING.

Hi,
can you make some screen? This is greate news for me...
thanks
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post #806 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 01:51 PM
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Is this crosstalk test viable for projectors? Could someone who has a 3010 give it a shot?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1291751
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post #807 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 01:58 PM
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[attach][attach]Attachment 226079[/attach][/attach]
LL
LL
LL
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post #808 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCunited View Post

I had a Epson 8100 for over a year, and it looked good. When the 8350 came out i was like great just month old and and new model came out but the 8350 has very little black improvement so i was cool. Well my family wanted 3d so my luck my projector was getting the red blobs on the corner and was able to switch it out last week. i was about to get the 8350 but 3010 was there too. After reading all the reviews here and websites i choose the 3010. 1. smaller body compared to the 8100. Still heavy. 2. the auto Iris is much approved compared to the 8100 and works fast. I mean the room goes completely black. And it does not make much noise compared to the 8100. 3. Color is better and Contrast is better on the 3010 vs the 8100. The extra lumens makes the picture better. It is a super bright image compared to the 8100 in eco mode. I mean destroyed the 8100 in brightness and my room is dark. So hurts the eyes a little when playing xbox games. 4. The blacks is a little, I mean little lighter than the 8100 but the color and Much Cleaner image makes up for that. My wife said it looks like the Movie theater. I played a many blurays and the first thing i noticed it was clean no image noise just clean crisp image just like a good LCD TV. 5. Okay There is Input Lag on the 3010, It takes a wile for it to fine the HDMI connections. BUT THERE IS NO GAMING LAG WITH THE XBOX 360 NONE!!! I Played Modern Warfare 2 for a Hour and Gears of War 3 four days and NO LAG NO GHOSTING NOTHING. Works Great and Kills the 8100 in Game Picture Quality it just looks Clean Bright HD Picture Period. 6. 3D Looks better if not brighter than the movie theaters. Nice Detailed 3d picture and no lag or crosstalk there. So is it better than the epson 8100 yes because of newer technology that epson put in this projector. Do i miss the lens shift? Yes i miss that but after taking maybe a longer time to setup this one up its better overall. Again Clean Bright HD pictures with about the same black level of the 8100 but with more lumens. Best Projector under $1600. And Yes I had a DLP projector before too and LCD is just fine compared to DLP technology. I think lcd has a lower DB in noise and better color. But again its just me so Again NO LAG IN GAMING NOR GHOSTING FOR Game Consoles. Bluray looks great

Weird i have played on this at 1080p I hope you are running 1080p. I do not know about xbox 360 but I have to think maybe its my frends receiver adding lag Denon avr 3312 as I experienced lag in cod black ops and fifa 12. 3D gaming unplayable way to slow. I will ask him to connect straight bypass denon tonight, he is thinking of returning and getting the sony.
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post #809 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 03:29 PM
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I know screen shots over the web can be tricky but I haven't seen one picture that looks even close to the pop on my pictures of the Optoma. You need to focus or something, Art's pictures don't look like they're tuned right also, too pink and bluish.

Don't know how it looks on your monitor but -
This is a better look at what leeloo should look like color wise in this frame. Pop is another thing.
http://www.videodementia.com/sales/hd33d65k2d3.jpg

Tom/guitarman
VideoDementia

Are you twisted also?
http://www.videodementia.com/sales/TomWithWires.jpg
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post #810 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 03:37 PM
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So could you turn a "plain" version in to the "e" version? An addon card or something? I don't think I've seen this discussed before.

I see plain 3010 available locally, just debating about buying and add the WirelessHD later.
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