New Epson 3D projectors! 3010, 5010, 6010 - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 02:37 PM
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can anyone comment on how the 2d refresh rate is? I'm wondering if given the 4
80 hz panels I can expect motion to look and feel like a 120hz or better lcd?
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post #812 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Just read this about the 5010 at http://ht3d.blogspot.com/2011/09/eps...eh-tw9000.html :

In Europe there will be also a Light Power Edition (filter in front of the lens) available. It reduces to measured 1600 lumen with a near perfect color spectrum.

I am going to be a little pissed at Epson if this external filter version with 1600 calibrated lumens is only available in Europe! If it is, I wonder if getting a filter from Europe will work... Will it mount, is that all that is necessary, etc. Yeah, I'd prefer the filter be internal like the one they have now, but 1600 calibrated lumens would be worth it.

This has all happened before. The 6500UB had a 'light power' version, only available in Europe. I have NO IDEA whatsoever why they would limit this to Europe only. Also, why can't we just buy a filter from a camera store that matches the light power version? I highly doubt it's a proprietary filter developed by Epson .
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post #813 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pxjunky View Post

Weird i have played on this at 1080p I hope you are running 1080p. I do not know about xbox 360 but I have to think maybe its my frends receiver adding lag Denon avr 3312 as I experienced lag in cod black ops and fifa 12. 3D gaming unplayable way to slow. I will ask him to connect straight bypass denon tonight, he is thinking of returning and getting the sony.

Definately bypass the AVR and try it. The Denon could be adding a good bit of lag. Make sure and post up the results!
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post #814 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

This has all happened before. The 6500UB had a 'light power' version, only available in Europe. I have NO IDEA whatsoever why they would limit this to Europe only. Also, why can't we just buy a filter from a camera store that matches the light power version? I highly doubt it's a proprietary filter developed by Epson .

Actually, I would think it's a completely unique filter. It has to filter the native output of the bulb and pass through light correct for the HDTV color space. Pretty specific there. Plus, it's bigger than a CD.

Why the hell would they limit such a great feature??? I wonder if it's possible to get the filter in Europe, or if there are other differences in the European PJ...
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post #815 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 03:23 PM
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There are people using filters on PJs already, but the issue is then you need to recalibrate it. You will get more contrast and better blacks with the right filter. The 8700 does this automatically for you when you put it in best mode.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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post #816 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

There are people using filters on PJs already, but the issue is then you need to recalibrate it. You will get more contrast and better blacks with the right filter. The 8700 does this automatically for you when you put it in best mode.

Yes it does, and so does the 3010 and the 5010. (Actually, any mode other than Living Room and Dynamic.) The internal filters do a lot more than that; they correct the color output so that it matches the REC709 standard. Without the filter the color saturations are curved, not linear. Cyan does not reach 100% saturation and green is skewed a bit towards yellow at 100% saturation. All of that is after a good calibration. The negative to the internal filter is that it cuts light output considerably.

What we're talking about here is the "Light Power" version of the 5010 that uses an external filter to accomplish the same task as the internal filter. The benefit to the external filter is light output is considerably higher than with the internal filter, possibly due to the size. It's not the same thing at all as using some photographic filter. It corrects the color to the REC709 standard, something no off the shelf filter could possibly do.
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post #817 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 05:32 PM
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Kirnak: This is very interesting information that I've been searching for a while. So then how does the 5010 have more contrast than the 3010?

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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post #818 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 07:25 PM
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Magic, I guess. It's not the filter, because even in Dynamic mode my 8700 has WAY more contrast than my 8100 did...
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post #819 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 08:01 PM
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5010 has different LCD panels than the 3010. The 5010 uses the larger (.74") while the 3010 uses the smaller (.61"?) panels. That will give different performance.
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post #820 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 09:47 PM
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well my local best buy here in Portland Oregon has the 3010 in stock..I'm 99 percent going to take the plunge..I'm just waiting for anyone with 3dtv play or mainly nvidia 3d vision to tell me what actually gaming on this this is like in 3d running at 1080p..using dvi to hdmi. is the lag really that bad? is there noticable ghosting? i just wanna know what the actual non biased gaming is really like..dont really care about xbox 360 or ps3 gaming..I'm talking full 1080p 3d pc gaming..xbox 360 and ps3 run in 720p during 3d gameplay..any help is very very appeciated!! I'm ready to buy..I just need this last bit of input!
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post #821 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post

well my local best buy here in Portland Oregon has the 3010 in stock..I'm 99 percent going to take the plunge..I'm just waiting for anyone with 3dtv play or mainly nvidia 3d vision to tell me what actually gaming on this this is like in 3d running at 1080p..using dvi to hdmi. is the lag really that bad? is there noticable ghosting? i just wanna know what the actual non biased gaming is really like..dont really care about xbox 360 or ps3 gaming..I'm talking full 1080p 3d pc gaming..xbox 360 and ps3 run in 720p during 3d gameplay..any help is very very appeciated!! I'm ready to buy..I just need this last bit of input!

Sorry to disappoint but 1080p 3d gaming will be limited to 1080/24hz due to HDMI 1.4a spec bandwidth limitations. Same for Optoma HD33. Using a DVI to HDMI connector will make no difference. The only pj that has a DVD-D input which does 1080p 3d is the new Acer h9500bd but so far no one has been able to get it to output 1080/120hz in 2d which is a pre-req for full hd 3d gaming. I'm also keeping an eye on it the international forums as it seems only Europe has the Acer unit so far...
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post #822 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:21 PM
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Actually, side-by-side or over-under half-res at 60hz work fine too. That's what I've been playing around with tonight and I'm really liking this mode, probably better than 720p frame packed. Of course it's a bit annoying to have to press buttons to go in/out of 3d.
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post #823 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 10:27 PM
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Still looking for current owners who can recommend additional glasses? I bought a pair of XPAND x103's, but I'm not sure they're fast enough to keep up with the 240hz panels. These glasses give me a blurred image in one eye. The Epson glasses that came with the PJ work great, no ghosting or blur. I'm just looking for some more but Epson isn't selling theirs yet.
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post #824 of 2311 Old 10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Actually, side-by-side or over-under half-res at 60hz work fine too. That's what I've been playing around with tonight and I'm really liking this mode, probably better than 720p frame packed. Of course it's a bit annoying to have to press buttons to go in/out of 3d.

That's interesting. Can you explain that a little more please? It's a half res 1080p 3d 60hz mode? What are the visual differences between this and 720p frame-packed? Is this mode available only from a PC not ps3? Would other 1080p 1.4a projectors be able to do this as well? Thanks.
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post #825 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Definately bypass the AVR and try it. The Denon could be adding a good bit of lag. Make sure and post up the results!

That Denon receiver has an HDMI GUI overlay, so it will be adding lag. The highest current receiver that doesn't do that is the Denon AVR-2112.

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post #826 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirnak View Post

Yes it does, and so does the 3010 and the 5010. (Actually, any mode other than Living Room and Dynamic.) The internal filters do a lot more than that; they correct the color output so that it matches the REC709 standard. Without the filter the color saturations are curved, not linear. Cyan does not reach 100% saturation and green is skewed a bit towards yellow at 100% saturation. All of that is after a good calibration. The negative to the internal filter is that it cuts light output considerably.

What we're talking about here is the "Light Power" version of the 5010 that uses an external filter to accomplish the same task as the internal filter. The benefit to the external filter is light output is considerably higher than with the internal filter, possibly due to the size. It's not the same thing at all as using some photographic filter. It corrects the color to the REC709 standard, something no off the shelf filter could possibly do.

You'd be pretty surprised at the number of filters and variations that exist in the camera world. All I saying is that I guarantee you there is a 'similar' filter somewhere in the world that would get you close to what the light edition filter would get.

I had no idea it was the size of a CD. that doesn't seem right.
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post #827 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFourMan View Post

That's interesting. Can you explain that a little more please? It's a half res 1080p 3d 60hz mode? What are the visual differences between this and 720p frame-packed? Is this mode available only from a PC not ps3? Would other 1080p 1.4a projectors be able to do this as well? Thanks.

Yeah, it's just PC (though I think maybe xbox 360 uses sbs too? Not sure). 720p frame packed is two full 1280x720 frames, whereas the half-res 1080p resolutions are really just a single 1920x1080 frame with two images 'squished' into one frame. The projector takes each half and stretches it back into full size (no scaling needed, just each pixel is placed twice). The result will be superior to 720 in one dimension, and inferior in another. For example, with side-by-side, each frame will basically be 960x1080 resolution (just over 1m pixels compared to 720p's 920k pixels).

I honestly expected 24hz gaming to be playable, but the slow refresh rate exacerbates the lag issue, and 24hz 1080p games are - to me at least - not tolerable at all.

With a PS3 you're pretty much stuck with frame packed resolutions, but that's not so bad since it defaults to 720p for games and 1080p for movies, so at least it sticks with most appropriate frame packed res.
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post #828 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lespurgeon View Post

5010 has different LCD panels than the 3010. The 5010 uses the larger (.74") while the 3010 uses the smaller (.61"?) panels. That will give different performance.

Ok, that makes some sense. Thanks for the info.

My Denon AVR (1911) definitely adds some lag to the video and audio. I run my video straight to my PJ from my HTPC and I have to put a delay on the video in VLC so that the audio syncs. When my video goes through the AVR I don't have to delay the video in VLC bc the AVR does.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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post #829 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 07:03 AM
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Can anyone comment on these Epsons vs. a DLP for sharpness. Yeah, I know DLP will technically be sharper, but can anyone quantify if we're talking a night and day difference, or something more subtle. From the screenshots in the reviews, it looks like these lcd's show as much detail.
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post #830 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 07:23 AM
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Looks good to me, but the DLPs I've had are all 720p, so not a fair comparison.
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post #831 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 07:25 AM
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Art's review said he thought the Epson was a touch sharper than the HD33 because of the better lens, but I'd also like to hear from people about sharpness, especially HTPC users when viewing text/webpages.

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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post #832 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Art's review said he thought the Epson was a touch sharper than the HD33 because of the better lens, but I'd also like to hear from people about sharpness, especially HTPC users when viewing text/webpages.

I just returned my HD33, but had it hooked up to my htpc and did some web browsing. It wasn't as sharp and bright as I thought it was going to be. Even after playing with the settings, it had a dullness to it that was the opposite it's performance with movies. I'm thinking that the LCD's could outperform it in that regard.
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post #833 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Yeah, it's just PC (though I think maybe xbox 360 uses sbs too? Not sure). 720p frame packed is two full 1280x720 frames, whereas the half-res 1080p resolutions are really just a single 1920x1080 frame with two images 'squished' into one frame. The projector takes each half and stretches it back into full size (no scaling needed, just each pixel is placed twice). The result will be superior to 720 in one dimension, and inferior in another. For example, with side-by-side, each frame will basically be 960x1080 resolution (just over 1m pixels compared to 720p's 920k pixels).

I honestly expected 24hz gaming to be playable, but the slow refresh rate exacerbates the lag issue, and 24hz 1080p games are - to me at least - not tolerable at all.

With a PS3 you're pretty much stuck with frame packed resolutions, but that's not so bad since it defaults to 720p for games and 1080p for movies, so at least it sticks with most appropriate frame packed res.

Xbox360 is SBS as well. There's no reason PS3 isn't capable of SBS, but I think there's generally a "Why go half SBS when we can do full rez Frame Packed?" mentality. Although I consistently hear that 50% 1080p SBS is preferred over 100% 720p Frame Packed. I think I heard though that a few PS3 games allow you to choose SBS instead of Frame Packed. Maybe the Avatar game?

Theoretically the human eye is more sensitive to V resolution than H... so not only is 960 x 1080 more pixels (and integer scaling) but it's 50% higher V resolution and only 25% less H resolution than 1280 x 720. So it should look better all around.
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post #834 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

You'd be pretty surprised at the number of filters and variations that exist in the camera world. All I saying is that I guarantee you there is a 'similar' filter somewhere in the world that would get you close to what the light edition filter would get.

I had no idea it was the size of a CD. that doesn't seem right.

Such filters were already in the Light Power Editions of the 4400er / 5500 series at, but in the case of the EH-TW9000 is all a bit larger and so impressive: Since the filter because of the dust cover will no longer be plugged directly onto the lens, but on the chassis ring surrounding the lens, it has a diameter of about 12cm, which is larger than a CD! Accordingly, the complex version in aluminum. A pleasant side effect: The filter acts as an additional dust protection, so that the lens is spared in operation before the irritating grains.

The tone of the filter is not identical to that of its predecessor, but slightly stronger. So apparently the modified spectrum lamp is taken into account, which now has a little more green components.


No way of knowing I guess, but I'd be amazed if this filter could be replicated with an off the shelf photographic filter. It seems just a bit too specific to me.

Here's the link to the German review:
http://translate.google.ca/translate...prmd%3Dimvnsfd
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post #835 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ekscden View Post

I just returned my HD33, but had it hooked up to my htpc and did some web browsing. It wasn't as sharp and bright as I thought it was going to be. Even after playing with the settings, it had a dullness to it that was the opposite it's performance with movies. I'm thinking that the LCD's could outperform it in that regard.

Are you serious ? In 2D, HD3300 is very bright & much sharper than the LCD I had earlier. Infact I have to reduce the brightness while surfing (3D glasses come in handy for that !).

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post #836 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 11:06 AM
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For 3D, can the Epson be made to work with the Nvidia 3D Vision on a HTPC for games? I have looked for the answer to this for a while. I'm assuming the Nvidia 3D is what I need, correct? I know I will have to go to 720/120hz, but can I do it? I know I can play 3D video, but how do I do games?

Thanks for any info someone can give!

Current HT: HTPC-->Epson 5010 projector-->135" screen, BFM TLAHs x7 & THT
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post #837 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 11:12 AM
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So when do we see 5010 review units arriving? I've got 14 days on the 3010 I just bought to come to a decision about returning it and buying up.
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post #838 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

For 3D, can the Epson be made to work with the Nvidia 3D Vision on a HTPC for games? I have looked for the answer to this for a while. I'm assuming the Nvidia 3D is what I need, correct? I know I will have to go to 720/120hz, but can I do it? I know I can play 3D video, but how do I do games?

Thanks for any info someone can give!

I can confirm ATI works, and you get more flexibility (since, for example, both tridef and iz3d support side-by-side and top-bottom), but I don't know for certain on nvidia. Theoretically, you shouldn't need a full 3d vision kit, just 3dtv play - but I haven't touched nvidia since about the time 3dtv play launched so I'm not 100% sure.
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post #839 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 11:48 AM
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defiancecp,
Have you tried Espon Service to see if they can recommend a way to limit input lag?
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post #840 of 2311 Old 10-25-2011, 12:10 PM
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Good point, I'm accustomed to the bottomless nonresponse that is Optoma support; I chose this in part to avoid that, so I should take advantage I'll let you all know if I hear any suggestions that help.
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