The Official Acer H9500BD Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 4744 Old 11-26-2011, 06:29 PM
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Art refers to the Acer 9500's black levels as such: "it just may be an ultra high contract projector."

If my walls are very dark (almost black) and I have total light control, does anyone have a guess (educated or not) as to whether the black letterboxing on scope movies with this projector would be actual black, or some distracting dark grey?
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post #272 of 4744 Old 11-26-2011, 07:57 PM
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Sounds like that would put the black levels about halfway between the Mits hc4000 and Sanyo z4000.

The black bars shouldn't look overly bright or anything, but in scenes where the IRIS isn't enabled, they may bother you a little.

I would enable masking or use a digital zoom to crop and fill the screen.


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post #273 of 4744 Old 11-26-2011, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Art refers to the Acer 9500's black levels as such: "it just may be an ultra high contract projector."

If my walls are very dark (almost black) and I have total light control, does anyone have a guess (educated or not) as to whether the black letterboxing on scope movies with this projector would be actual black, or some distracting dark grey?

Never gonna be black since your screen is not black. How distracting it is is subject to debate. I predict a dark shade of gray. Your black letterbox will not be truly black either so it may be very good.
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post #274 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

You still don't get it. I'm not saying your image at home won't look better than the pics. It should look better.

After taking hundreds of pics with different cameras and projectors and comparing them at home with different exposures. Has led me to my conclusions.

It is irrelevant, your camera is crushing the blacks anyway, and will do so dynamically based on the brightness and other factors, making even your test subjective for comparison.

But yes, I do not want to derail this thread either, so we can agree on that. But before I leave this discussion, lets compare the Acer HD9500BD to a mystery projector using Art's photos, not our own.

In your own honest opinion, and if you were a buyer looking at these two images for the best contrast performance or the least "haze" as you call it, which one would you pick?

Acer HD9500BD


Mystery projector
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post #275 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slickru2 View Post

It is irrelevant, your camera is crushing the blacks anyway, and will do so dynamically based on the brightness and other factors, making even your test subjective for comparison.

But yes, I do not want to derail this thread either, so we can agree on that. But before I leave this discussion, lets compare the Acer HD9500BD to a mystery projector using Art's photos, not our own.

In your own honest opinion, and if you were a buyer looking at these two images for the best contrast performance or the least "haze" as you call it, which one would you pick?

Acer HD9500BD


Mystery projector



Yes the camera is crushing the blacks on the higher contrast projector in the night photo. It's crushing them for that very reason though. The camera can't distinguish the darker blacks of that particular projector like it can with the other.

Now the two photos you've supplied, the mystery projector looks brighter than the Acer in this scene. They are also two different skin tones. The colors are different. Colors are more of a preference, it's easy to take a photo of this brightness level and not show the haze if one so chooses.

Neither image looks like it is over exposed. So what exactly is your point?

The more I look at these, the more I notice the lower projector image shows the lighting of the room more. The 9500 doesn't look quite as accurate color wise, if you take the room lighting into account.
It's not a major issue though, as they both look fine here. The lower pic reminds me of one of my favorite DLPs, the Infocus SP8602. The lower pic has better shadow detail as well.
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post #276 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 09:09 AM
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We can see by that image why a slight red push is better than a yellow push, not that the Acer had a red push or the mystery projector even has a yellow push (the photo probably added most of the push), but just saying. When you look at the image by itself instead of a side-by-side, the red push looks more natural than the yellow push. A yellow push is very easy to spot even with no reference picture next to it. Probably because people's faces can get red in cold weather or for whatever reason even in real life, but I've yet to ever see anyone's face turn yellow (lol).

So that picture is why I absolutely despise yellow pushes on skin tones, although some skin tones are far worse than even that one when you have a yellow push, it makes things look flat and weird...


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post #277 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 09:17 AM
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I think the red push is what Art refers too as tanned skin. It looks good in some scenes. It also irritates me in others. Especially when I see a crowd of people and everyone has the same skin tone. lol
They all look like they just got out of a tanning bed.
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post #278 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 09:40 AM
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Yah if it's too heavy it is that way.

The blue push is the least troublesome, it tends to add a more pale or less saturated effect. On my Viewsonic it has a red push, so what I do to compensate is I use a high color mode, drop yellow and red, and raise blue, the end result is slightly pale skin tones, but at least they don't look like cartoons.


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post #279 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

We can see by that image why a slight red push is better than a yellow push, not that the Acer had a red push or the mystery projector even has a yellow push (the photo probably added most of the push), but just saying. When you look at the image by itself instead of a side-by-side, the red push looks more natural than the yellow push. A yellow push is very easy to spot even with no reference picture next to it. Probably because people's faces can get red in cold weather or for whatever reason even in real life, but I've yet to ever see anyone's face turn yellow (lol).

So that picture is why I absolutely despise yellow pushes on skin tones, although some skin tones are far worse than even that one when you have a yellow push, it makes things look flat and weird...

I completely agree. The mystery projector does seem to have a yellow push. I much prefer the red push of the 9500. Art mentions in his review that they were able to tone down the red by lowering the default saturation levels.
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post #280 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

The more I look at these, the more I notice the lower projector image shows the lighting of the room more. The 9500 doesn't look quite as accurate color wise, if you take the room lighting into account.
It's not a major issue though, as they both look fine here. The lower pic reminds me of one of my favorite DLPs, the Infocus SP8602. The lower pic has better shadow detail as well.

You are right. This particular scene in Casino Royale is inside an airport under fluorecent lights. Thats why the skintones are bit yellow and projector should show them as such.

Anyway, I am also looking at this projector, mainly for 3D. The auto iris at this price is wonderful but the color push could be the deal breaker. Have we found out about the service menu and color mods through it?
Another option is - I have DVDO Edge and potentially can calibrate the picture using it.

Sigh, I think it will be between this or Benq W7000 for me.

Manoj
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post #281 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 01:01 PM
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I think a slight red push may be a bit of a disadvantage for 2D; however, for 3D it may be an advantage. For me the Acer 5360 has better colour in 3D mode with glasses on than it has in 2D mode. I only use it in 3D mode, but tried a few movies in 2D mode when I first got it.
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post #282 of 4744 Old 11-27-2011, 01:04 PM
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Guys, for the most part projectors do not have shadow detail beyond native contrast and gamma and calibration variances, if you doubt it, then go ask experts in the calibration forum. Shadow detail is a function of native contrast and gamma, period. In the old days banding and NR and general processing used to affect it sometimes, but we are generally past that point. How well a projector can calibrate can affect shadow detail, but you have to assume an equal calibration with something like a Lumagen Radiance, judging projectors with different calibrations for shadow detail is not the best accuracy. Even the slightest gamma error can throw the shadow detail off in a scene.

I am not pulling this stuff out of thin air, I have been in these forums reading posts by experts in the calibration threads, like people that write calibration software for a living (like Tom Huffman and others). I do agree that lighting adds color BIAS, but so do cameras. The red tint may or may not be a big issue, but don't judge color from a screenshot. I will concede you can see some contrast difference in really well done screenshots, but even here you have to be VERY careful and for the most part it doesn't work well enough to judge by the eye. Some of this information is standard, people can continue to argue on this stuff, but I would suggest reading the calibration threads by Tom Huffman and others if you want to learn the real deal about how this stuff works.


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post #283 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davecraze View Post

Art refers to the Acer 9500's black levels as such: "it just may be an ultra high contract projector."

If my walls are very dark (almost black) and I have total light control, does anyone have a guess (educated or not) as to whether the black letterboxing on scope movies with this projector would be actual black, or some distracting dark grey?

Hi Davecraze,

it's never truly black, even on the best - only CRTs in theory. That's the whole point of looking for better (blacker) blacks. Happiness is based on:
the size of the screen (and gain), the contrast, blacks of the projector, and your tolerance for the distraction of letterboxes or flat, too bright dark scenes.

I was impressed with the Acer's blacks. It's got to be one of the best in the under $2K category, (at least with 3D, or until projectors like the 8700UB and PT-AE4000 are no longer around. A really nice projector - but rough around the edges. It certainly is a serious rival to the Mitsubishi HC4000, a very popular projector we have liked a lot. The Mitsubishi HC4000 is a few hundred less - but no 3D, no lens shift... -art

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post #284 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 02:10 AM
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Art,

So would you say the black levels of the Acer are about halfway to the Panny 4000 from the Mits hc4000 if the Mits were the start, or would you say even closer to the Panny 4000's blacks then halfway (maybe 3/4 of the way)?


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post #285 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presenter View Post

Hi Davecraze,

it's never truly black, even on the best - only CRTs in theory. That's the whole point of looking for better (blacker) blacks. Happiness is based on:
the size of the screen (and gain), the contrast, blacks of the projector, and your tolerance for the distraction of letterboxes or flat, too bright dark scenes.

I was impressed with the Acer's blacks. It's got to be one of the best in the under $2K category, (at least with 3D, or until projectors like the 8700UB and PT-AE4000 are no longer around. A really nice projector - but rough around the edges. It certainly is a serious rival to the Mitsubishi HC4000, a very popular projector we have liked a lot. The Mitsubishi HC4000 is a few hundred less - but no 3D, no lens shift... -art

Art-

I was wondering if it would be possible for you to finish the review on the Acer H9500BD. There are aspects of the review that are seemingly from the Epson 3010 review, so I am not sure which projector you are talking about. There also seems like a few moments where you contradicted yourself. I do really enjoy reading your reviews on the site and find them very insightful.
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post #286 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 12:34 PM
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It looks to me there are some others here like me interested in this projector despite its imperfect color, but we are wondering what can be done to brighten the 3D image. We see there is a "brightness" slider in the 3D menu of this projector, but we have not heard from a user or reviewer whether the 3D image can be brightened up acceptably. Could someone with a 9500 on hand play with the brightness adjustment in the 3D menu and see if it does much that is useful?
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post #287 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Didn't try the brightness menu option in 3d mode. I did try it with the iris on and off. The iris does function in 3d mode...haven't viewed enough 3d content one way or another to offer an opinion on which looked best. Compared to the H5360 it was clear the 9500 was not as bright.

If someone can provide documentation on the service menu..I can take a look when I have some free time.

If the 9500 is not as bright as the H5360 then it is off my list. The H5360's brightness is acceptable on my 2.8 gain screen, but I'm not interested in anything not as bright in 3D mode.
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post #288 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 07:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post


If the 9500 is not as bright as the H5360 then it is off my list. The H5360's brightness is acceptable on my 2.8 gain screen, but I'm not interested in anything not as bright in 3D mode.

The H5360 is rated at 2500 lumens, the 9500 is rated at 2000 lumens. FYI, but you won't find a sub $2000 1080p projector with as many lumens as the H5360. Your best bet might be the upcoming BenQ W7000, but expect to pay closer to $3K.
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post #289 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Played around with the Brightness slider tonight...it in no way increases the total lumens the projector is putting out, rather is an image adjustment, like contrast, gamma etc.
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post #290 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Played around with the Brightness slider tonight...it in no way increases the total lumens the projector is putting out, rather is an image adjustment, like contrast, gamma etc.

Thanks Tim. Much appreciated.
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post #291 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Played around with the Brightness slider tonight...it in no way increases the total lumens the projector is putting out, rather is an image adjustment, like contrast, gamma etc.

Thanks Tim, while that kinda sucks, the only 1080P unit brighter than this is the Epson 3010 and well, it is brighter. I do not want to start any crap here.
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post #292 of 4744 Old 11-28-2011, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikes2cents View Post

Thanks Tim, while that kinda sucks, the only 1080P unit brighter than this is the Epson 3010 and well, it is brighter. I do not want to start any crap here.

Art measured 1500 lumens in 3D for the Panny 7000, and 1660 for the Epson 5010. I cannot find Art's measurements for the 3010 in 3D, but he did guesstimate the 9500 at about 1300 lumens in 3D. So there are brighter options than the 9500 but only the 3010 will best it in the sub $2k range. What is frustrating about the 9500 is it has the potential to offer lumens very close to the 3010 in 3D but Acer chose not to offer a dynamic 3D mode. Very strange. Hopefully there is another workaround or Acer will address this. The BenQ 7000 looks very promising on paper, but could very well cost almost double vs the Acer.
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post #293 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I cannot find Art's measurements for the 3010 in 3D, but he did guesstimate the 9500 at about 1300 lumens in 3D. So there are brighter options than the 9500 but only the 3010 will best it in the sub $2k range. What is frustrating about the 9500 is it has the potential to offer lumens very close to the 3010 in 3D but Acer chose not to offer a dynamic 3D mode. Very strange. Hopefully there is another workaround or Acer will address this. The BenQ 7000 looks very promising on paper, but could very well cost almost double vs the Acer.

Yeah, sub $2k is what I meant. Art said it was as bright as the HD33 and I don't read many complaints about that. Maybe a FW update or something in the service menu can bump it up to dynamic mode. I do not watch enough 3D for this to be a total showstopper for me though. I can pretty much bat cave for those times.
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post #294 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 11:46 AM
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So, I have one of these on the way, as well as a VaPex 120" 1.1 matte white electric screen. This is my first projector, so I was wondering if I can get some assistance in putting this all together. My present setup is as follows : 54" Panasonic G10, receiver HDMI 1.3 Onkyo TX-SR605, PS3 SLIM, Mac Mini, Xbox 360, 7.1 surround.

I have yet to order a mount, because I wanted to assemble everything together initially and gather some more facts.

The room everything is in is my living room, it is 16 feet deep, 8 feet high, and twelve feet wide. I'm thinking that the screen will go above the TV on the ceiling, with the TV 18' from the wall. Will I need special screws to secure the screen to the ceiling, aside from the screws that will be included in the package, due to the weight of the screen. I don't even have a power drill.

Coderman, thank you for the calculator, it's a big help and I'm putting it to use. From the numbers I've put in 13' is the closest I can have the projector, and the lens offset is 13".

I'm going to place the projector onto my coffee table which is 17" off the ground. What are the benefits of the a shelf mount vs. ceiling mount aside from clutter, aesthetics?

Is there any recommended 2D and 3D settings? The glasses are DLP Link/IR glasses, is that correct? I know that one pair comes with the projector, but no where have I seen any extras offered. Any reccomendations on DLP glasses?
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post #295 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 12:42 PM
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The problem is that these lamps dim as they age and it can happen very quickly and then they stabilize. So after 300 to 400 hours you may only have 70% of what you started with. If brightness was just enough for 3D when the lamp was new you may be out of luck in a few months.
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post #296 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimShadler View Post

Played around with the Brightness slider tonight...it in no way increases the total lumens the projector is putting out, rather is an image adjustment, like contrast, gamma etc.

Tim did you try increasing CONTRAST instead of BRIGHTNESS on 9500 ? I learnt in my calibration class that you need to control CONTRAST to get more lumens.

Having said that when I attempted 3010 3D calibration by sticking the glasses infront of the caloriemeter, found that lumens drop to 1/4 when glasses are ON and they didnt improve much even if i raised the CONTRAST.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The problem is that these lamps dim as they age and it can happen very quickly and then they stabilize. So after 300 to 400 hours you may only have 70% of what you started with. If brightness was just enough for 3D when the lamp was new you may be out of luck in a few months.

Dont want to discourage anyone here but want to share my experience with HD33 vs 3010....while I found HD33 3D brightness was just adequate (on my new lamp), its only after I saw 3010 3D brightness that I realized how much better 3D is when you have more lumens. But again, if 3D viewing is just a fraction of your 2D viewing may be that's not a big deal OR you can get a high gain screen to make up for it !
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post #297 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 01:27 PM
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Hi folks ! I'm happy to join into this thread too! My Acer just arrived and now I can upgrade my brilliant H7531D Here some photos of my new and so long waited projector to be on the market in USA.It was available only in Europe 2 moths ago.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #298 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Tim did you try increasing CONTRAST instead of BRIGHTNESS on 9500 ? I learnt in my calibration class that you need to control CONTRAST to get more lumens.

Having said that when I attempted 3010 3D calibration by sticking the glasses infront of the caloriemeter, found that lumens drop to 1/4 when glasses are ON and they didnt improve much even if i raised the CONTRAST.



Dont want to discourage anyone here but want to share my experience with HD33 vs 3010....while I found HD33 3D brightness was just adequate (on my new lamp), its only after I saw 3010 3D brightness that I realized how much better 3D is when you have more lumens. But again, if 3D viewing is just a fraction of your 2D viewing may be that's not a big deal OR you can get a high gain screen to make up for it !

Yea I played around with that as well. I don't have anything to measure the lumens with...but I saw no significant change in brightness.
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post #299 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 01:38 PM
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Here some more photos comparing my H7531D and H9500BD
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post #300 of 4744 Old 11-29-2011, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHUCKCHILLOUT View Post

So, I have one of these on the way, as well as a VaPex 120" 1.1 matte white electric screen. This is my first projector, so I was wondering if I can get some assistance in putting this all together. My present setup is as follows : 54" Panasonic G10, receiver HDMI 1.3 Onkyo TX-SR605, PS3 SLIM, Mac Mini, Xbox 360, 7.1 surround.

I have yet to order a mount, because I wanted to assemble everything together initially and gather some more facts.

The room everything is in is my living room, it is 16 feet deep, 8 feet high, and twelve feet wide. I'm thinking that the screen will go above the TV on the ceiling, with the TV 18' from the wall. Will I need special screws to secure the screen to the ceiling? I don't even have a power drill.

Coderman, thank you for the calculator, it's a big help and I'm putting it to use. From the numbers I've put in 13' is the closest I can have the projector, and the lens offset is 13".

I'm going to place the projector onto my coffee table which is 17" off the ground. What are the benefits of the a shelf mount vs. ceiling mount aside from clutter, aesthics?

Is there any recommended 2D and 3D settings? The glasses are DLP Link/IR glasses, is that correct? I know that one pair comes with the projector, but no where have I seen any extras offered. Any reccomendations on DLP glasses?

The Onkyo 605 will not pass 3D, you would either need to upgrade your receiver or get something like a Panasonic BT310 for Blu-Ray that has dual HDMI output for video.
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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