Epson 3010 vs Optoma HD33 - A user's perspective - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 366 Old 11-01-2011, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by imblind View Post

I think I'm just gonna go with the HD33 so I can keep my projector on the floor. With the 3010, I'd have to use keystone to keep it on the floor. I live in a townhouse and with family stomping above the projector, ceiling mounting it would drive me nuts.

I was planning to ceiling mount anything i get...my neighbors upstairs are dead quiet.....hehe... they actually tapped the floor today because i was being loud...first time that has ever happened....and i admit...i was being loud at 11 at night....my bad
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post #92 of 366 Old 11-01-2011, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post

I think I'm just gonna go with the HD33 so I can keep my projector on the floor. With the 3010, I'd have to use keystone to keep it on the floor. I live in a townhouse and with family stomping above the projector, ceiling mounting it would drive me nuts.

That makes sense. Enjoy!

BTW, Projectorpeople has this PJ for $50 off if you use the promotion code "spooky" at checkout. They are a solid retailer with very good customer service as well.
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post #93 of 366 Old 11-01-2011, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiitaco View Post

Hi,
I am a PJ noob and have been lurking here for some time. I gotta admit that The lag vs. brightness is the big debate in my head. I am a gamer and do mostly FPS (counterstrike on my pc lol). But i do play FPS on my console to play against my friends. input lag is a killer when playing fps. People who say they are hardcore FPS gamers and play on console are not really hardcore since the mouse rules all. But I would like to play the console with as little input lag as possible.

Just be aware that the HD33 is not zero lag either....it is 30ms vs 60ms for the Epson. There are other PJs designed for gamers with near zero lag, but then you usually give up some 2D performance. There are no perfect PJs!

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post #94 of 366 Old 11-01-2011, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Just be aware that the HD33 is not zero lag either....it is 30ms vs 60ms for the Epson. There are other PJs designed for gamers with near zero lag, but then you usually give up some 2D performance. There are no perfect PJs!

Yeah i mean....realistically if i was serious about putting my pc on the projector it would be a different story...i just want it gameable i guess...60ms...thats a little too much...30 isnt great...but tolerable i think... Id have to compromise.
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post #95 of 366 Old 11-01-2011, 11:19 PM
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with the hd3300 having more lumens...is there a significant difference? i may be willing to pay more for that....
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post #96 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 02:20 AM
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Here are some of the projector lag topics to give you an idea of how fast or slow others are




Projectors and LAG times!!!

Input Lag of various projectors
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post #97 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawaiitaco View Post

with the hd3300 having more lumens...is there a significant difference? i may be willing to pay more for that....

Epson 3010 has significantly more lumens.

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post #98 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Epson 3010 has significantly more lumens.

argg...thats what i figured...i would love if the epson had lower input lag
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post #99 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:27 AM
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Yep, lag is the one unmitigated disappointment I've had. Hasn't stopped me from enjoying it, just ... Epson was one step away from me being completely happy, you know?
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post #100 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Yep, lag is the one unmitigated disappointment I've had. Hasn't stopped me from enjoying it, just ... Epson was one step away from me being completely happy, you know?

oh yeah...i was patiently waiting for the 3010 but now that im seeing the lag...im just stumped. Im willing to pay more if it'll get me to the sweet spot...I hate compromise (well price im willing to compromise...)! heh
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post #101 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 10:09 AM
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Hi,
I am somewhat of a newbie with projectors so I apologize in advance!
I am looking at both of these and wanted to get your opinion on which you think is better for

1. Sports Watching - mostly NFL, NBA
2. Gaming - xbox 360, some online play as well as single player
3. Movies

This would go in my basement which I am in the process of designing and building. The main focus of this room is more of a hybrid Family Room, that can handle hosting a Super Bowl party, to movies and gaming. I'm not sure if listing those 3 uses helps answer my question. I guess main concern is handling sports and gaming.

So.......
Which would you recommend?

Thanks
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post #102 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 01:49 PM
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Quote:


I guess main concern is handling sports and gaming.

If that's the case, I'd probably go with the HD33, but if you're planning on needing as many lumens as possible (ambient light), go with the 3010. Sounds like it's your basement, so I imagine that's not a problem. Although, you don't want to be in total darkness for your superbowl parties! That said, in 2D I think the HD33 will still be nice and bright.

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post #103 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 03:30 PM
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We almost need a flow chart for deciding between the two.

Top of it (for me, at least) would say "RBE Sensitive?" and would go from there. Maybe next could be "Lag sensitive? (competitive online gamer?)" and then go into room brightness and other stuff.
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post #104 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk
"I was going to hold out until the 7800 comes out, but when I saw the MSRP ($3500) I just could not justify paying so much more than the 3010. I love Mitsubishi, they make very solid products. I read the 7800 offered the best 3D out there from the folks who have seen it, and I love the contrast numbers. A solid DLP with good black levels. Gotta like that. But then I read the lumens were just 1600.. For that price I could get the Epson 5010 and get better black levels and 2400 lumens.

If Mitsubishi would have offered the equivalent of a 3D HC4000 for about $1500 and some more lumens vs the HC4000, I would have waited and not purchased the 3010.

For me the 3010 will be a 2 year placeholder until I can get what I want at the price that I want. IMHO, the 7800 is priced too high. The MSRP should be closer to $2500 with a street price of around $2K."

The Mits 7800 uses special glasses so you actually get about 350 to 400 lumens with glasses on compared to the Epson and Panasonic projectors which are around 90 to 150 lumens with glasses on depending how the glasses are set (low, medium or high brightness). According to Cine4Home the Mits will be at least twice as bright as just about any other 3D home theatre projector being released this year.

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post #105 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 05:41 PM
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It's like beating a dead horse. I showed everyone a picture of my light meter. It read 50ft candles. That's the Optoma HD3300 at 300 hours tuned down to D65k in bright lamp mode. My screen is 32sq ft so 50x32 is 1600 lumens. Now 3D mode uses dynamic gamma which I tested adds 20% more light. That's 1920 lumens when watching 3D.

Everybody wants to go by other reviewers Idea of how bright but nobody actually showed you the light level in a picture of the device taking it. Yet still wanna believe what you read from others.

Anybody actually test the Epson? If you do show me the light meter in a picture, just saying it's this bright doesn't cut it.

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post #106 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:00 PM
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Art took a pic of both projectors images to show relative brightness here: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...erformance.php

I've never heard of a PJ putting out 1600 lumens in a calibrated "best" mode before.... Makes me think your meter or your calcs or something is off, but what do I know as I'm not expert. I do feel more comfortable with Art's assessment, however.

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post #107 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:04 PM
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"The Mits 7800 uses special glasses so you actually get about 350 to 400 lumens with glasses on compared to the Epson and Panasonic projectors which are around 90 to 150 lumens"

This set of numbers are off also. I tested the light difference behind the glasses and the difference is 60% less light. If a projector has 2000lumens that's 400x2 800lumens left for 3D viewing. Some of these guys need a better calculator.

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post #108 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreasMergner View Post

Art took a pic of both projectors images to show relative brightness here: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...erformance.php

I've never heard of a PJ putting out 1600 lumens in a calibrated "best" mode before.... Makes me think your meter or your calcs or something is off, but what do I know as I'm not expert. I do feel more comfortable with Art's assessment, however.

There you go, just like I said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

My meter is dead on, the only reviewer I trust was Greg Rodgers whenever he posted a light level it always matched my findings. Shame he doesn't do WSR reviews anymore. You can't tell by a picture or if someone says yeah it's real bright.

Someone buy a light meter and test the Epson, who knows maybe it is way brighter but I won't know till I see a picture of the meters reading at the screen distance.

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post #109 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

There you go, just like I said you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

My meter is dead on, the only reviewer I trust was Greg Rodgers whenever he posted a light level it always matched my findings. Shame he doesn't do WSR reviews anymore. You can't tell by a picture or if someone says yeah it's real bright.

Someone buy a light meter and test the Epson, who knows maybe it is way brighter but I won't know till I see a picture of the meters reading at the screen distance.

Well, then maybe you should measure the Epson. Until you do, everyone is misinformed. There have been users with both PJs and they say the Epson is brighter. What is the gain on your screen?

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post #110 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:30 PM
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I just looked at those pictures, hate to use a picture at telling light level but those pictures are of a different gamma. The Epson looks awful really it's all blown out probably a low gamma number while the Optoma looks like a high gamma number CRT type gamma.

The tuning on the Epson in all the pictures leaves less to desire.

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post #111 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:37 PM
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Funny interpretation. I think the camera is set to manual so that you get the idea of relative brightness without the camera contributing to the differences. He had both PJs at the same time.

Look at the other pics to get a better idea of gamma....except pics will only look as good as the display you are looking at them with and pics never look as good as the actual image.

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post #112 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:46 PM
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Picture talk is silly really. I mean the way the PJ's are tuned not the camera.

Lets end the topic it's not going to go anywhere. I'm not buying the Epson can only hope there's someone out there with a light meter that can show me the reading. I'd like to know for sure how bright the projector really is.

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post #113 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 06:52 PM
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Tom,
So it looks like you are using a higher gain screen, but consider it a 1.0 gain because it is "outside the cone". How do you KNOW it is 1.0 gain? I think that is why you are getting such different lumen counts compared to the reviewers.

Again, I have no problem with the HD33/3300. It is a good PJ for the price like the Epson. The HD33 is very bright, but the Epson even more so.

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post #114 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:00 PM
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Screens out of the equasion, light readings are taken directly from the projectors. But they're taken at the screens distance. If I were to stand close to the PJ the light meter goes off the charts

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That.s 49.2 ftc.

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post #115 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:32 PM
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There are definitely some bunk readings from some of the reviewers, whether or not this is one of them is a question. I find it hard to believe they'd be off by 50% of the lumens, that would be way too easy to spot by eye even without a light meter. Part of the problem is some of the reviewer units are pre-production and some don't even have new lamps, and the reviewers often leave the part out about them not measuring with new lamps.

The Optoma hd33 does have a brighter best mode than the Epson, but I think the Epson is going to be brighter in torch mode. If I remember correctly, Cine4 already measured the Epsons being right at 2000 lumens in brightest mode which pretty much matched Art's measurements. You can take Cine4's measurements to the bank, I don't need to see a screenshot of his measurements, I know they are correct.


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post #116 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 07:50 PM
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Could be, I have a new HD3300 with a new lamp plus they say it's brighter than the HD33. No getting away from the shown light level on the meter. My projector on a 106" diag screen is 1920 lumens in the brighest mode which is the 3D mode.

Actually it's too bright for 2D D65k, I should try a ND2 filter for basic TV/Movies.

I wish all the reviewers from now on post a picture of their meters light level reading at the screen towards the projectors lens, then I'll believe them. Don't want to see computer readings of their color meters light either. Light meters only.

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post #117 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

There are definitely some bunk readings from some of the reviewers, whether or not this is one of them is a question. I find it hard to believe they'd be off by 50% of the lumens, that would be way too easy to spot by eye even without a light meter. Part of the problem is some of the reviewer units are pre-production and some don't even have new lamps, and the reviewers often leave the part out about them not measuring with new lamps.

The Optoma hd33 does have a brighter best mode than the Epson, but I think the Epson is going to be brighter in torch mode. If I remember correctly, Cine4 already measured the Epsons being right at 2000 lumens in brightest mode which pretty much matched Art's measurements. You can take Cine4's measurements to the bank, I don't need to see a screenshot of his measurements, I know they are correct.

Projectorcentral and Projectorreviews lumen ratings for the HD33 were both almost identical. Both of them showing the Optoma not coming close to the advertised specs. Both of them also were very close measuring the 3010 and the 3010 was closer to the advertised specs. If both sites were using faulty measurements and gear, I would think they would be consistently low across all projector brands. Not just Optoma. Art also was not able to get close to the advertised lumens for the Optoma 8300 either (he measured roughly 1k lumens vs the advertised 1500). Projectorcentral got closer for the 8300, but the numbers were still 300 lumens off the advertised spec. So either Optoma is shipping these things with dim bulbs, or Optoma boosts their lumen numbers to make their projectors look more competitive vs the competition. I find it hard to believe that Optoma would ship review projectors to such well known sites in the community with significantly dim bulbs, but I guess anything is possible. Now these could be pre-production models and could just be off, but again, this seems odd that Optoma would do this knowing the projectors are not getting close to the advertised specification.

At the end of the day, lumens are just one factor. And the Optoma is still a bright projector, especially in 2D, but there you go. The Optoma has other advantages and strongpoints, but clearly it is not the light cannon that the Epson is.

Tradeoffs.
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post #118 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 08:59 PM
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Mine is. (1920 lumens on a 106" screen).

I just returned a mail to Art he asked about my tuning settings trying to figure how the brightness levels were so different. One thing I noticed is that Mike used the Standard gamma choice which is a dark gamma, I use the Film gamma which is factory for the cinema choice and a more open and bright type image. Actually I later did a Standard gamma tuning and got a 2.58 crt type gamma which is dark and favors blacks.

I put up the numbers to give Optoma owners a choice, it can't hurt. Told them to try the dark gamma for movies it's a matter of choice. That's part of it the other is the hand picked parts for the HD3300, best lens, best boards, best lamps.

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post #119 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post

I find it hard to believe that Optoma would ship review projectors to such well known sites in the community with significantly dim bulbs, but I guess anything is possible. Now these could be pre-production models and could just be off, but again, this seems odd that Optoma would do this knowing the projectors are not getting close to the advertised specification.

I have studied almost all of Evan's and Art's numbers from every projector, because I had to in order to create my projector calculator. Their numbers are all over the place. The Optoma and newer Epsons are one of the few projectors they are close on. Maybe they have better measuring gear this year, but I do not know.

I am not saying the Optoma is a 2000 max lumen projector, I do not believe it is, based on my own research, at closest throw the projector tops out somewhere around 1400+ lumens. The key is the best mode though, it easily can do 1100+ lumens in best mode. Look at the Epson 8700ub, almost 700 lumens from PJC and about a measly 520 from Art. Even worse are the JVC numbers, Art's HD250 vs. RS-10 numbers made absolutely zero sense, a difference of 20%+ on what equates to be EXACTLY the same projector from the same measuring device!

Several of the MFR's have shipped Art and Evan projectors with lightly used bulbs, don't believe me, go check Art's RS-25 (or was it HD250 review). He had whacked numbers until he re-reviewed another unit that he borrowed from a friend who bought one new.

I agree it is dumb of the MFR's to do so, but they recycle the reviewer units, which means they'd need to put a new bulb in constantly. I think sometimes they just leave it in because they figure it's close enough to new, the MFR's really don't think about these things in that much detail, you have corporate bureaucracy in the way usually.


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post #120 of 366 Old 11-02-2011, 09:42 PM
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"I agree it is dumb of the MFR's to do so, but they recycle the reviewer units, which means they'd need to put a new bulb in constantly. I think sometimes they just leave it in because they figure it's close enough "

Totally agree, they could also have some lamps who's arc got a little bumped off really taking the brightness down.

Tom/guitarman
VideoDementia

Are you twisted also?
http://www.videodementia.com/sales/TomWithWires.jpg
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