Epson 3010 vs Optoma HD33 - A user's perspective - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riddle View Post

What cable do you use? This here is really terrible.

As I stated in the long review, it's with two different cables. One is 6', I got from Meritline for $1, and says 3D and 1.4a in big letters across the top, and is probably not any brand to speak of. The other is 10', I paid $10 for on Amazon and is a Blue Rigger cable: http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-Hig...0772483&sr=8-1

I wonder if my 3010 is a bum unit. The 10' cable worked fine (unless it's responsible for my issues with the HD33 mentioned in the long review) for the HD33. That is to say, I didn't see any issues like this.

If I ordered one more cable to try, is there a specific make/model I should go with? I've never had any trouble with any of the cheap HDMI cables I've had, but I realize there's a bandwidth issue here. But 1080@60hz should be higher bandwidth than 1080p@24hz, right?

Also as said in the long post: You can "easily" overcome this blinking by switching to another input and then switching back. It's annoying and I wouldn't live with it, but it's not like it's like that ALL of the time.
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post #182 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

As I stated in the long review, it's with two different cables. One is 6', I got from Meritline for $1, and says 3D and 1.4a in big letters across the top, and is probably not any brand to speak of. The other is 10', I paid $10 for on Amazon and is a Blue Rigger cable: http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-Hig...0772483&sr=8-1

I wonder if my 3010 is a bum unit. The 10' cable worked fine (unless it's responsible for my issues with the HD33 mentioned in the long review) for the HD33. That is to say, I didn't see any issues like this.

If I ordered one more cable to try, is there a specific make/model I should go with? I've never had any trouble with any of the cheap HDMI cables I've had, but I realize there's a bandwidth issue here. But 1080@60hz should be higher bandwidth than 1080p@24hz, right?

Also as said in the long post: You can "easily" overcome this blinking by switching to another input and then switching back. It's annoying and I wouldn't live with it, but it's not like it's like that ALL of the time.

You can a relatively cheap high speed HDMI cable from Monoprice. I really think you might have a bum unit since you tried two cables with the same results. But I don't really think it matters due to the lag issues anyway, right?
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post #183 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 10:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

As I stated in the long review, it's with two different cables. One is 6', I got from Meritline for $1, and says 3D and 1.4a in big letters across the top, and is probably not any brand to speak of. The other is 10', I paid $10 for on Amazon and is a Blue Rigger cable: http://www.amazon.com/BlueRigger-Hig...0772483&sr=8-1

I wonder if my 3010 is a bum unit. The 10' cable worked fine (unless it's responsible for my issues with the HD33 mentioned in the long review) for the HD33. That is to say, I didn't see any issues like this.

If I ordered one more cable to try, is there a specific make/model I should go with? I've never had any trouble with any of the cheap HDMI cables I've had, but I realize there's a bandwidth issue here. But 1080@60hz should be higher bandwidth than 1080p@24hz, right?

Also as said in the long post: You can "easily" overcome this blinking by switching to another input and then switching back. It's annoying and I wouldn't live with it, but it's not like it's like that ALL of the time.

that definitely looks like a bum unit.....you should have tried one more replacement
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post #184 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 10:42 AM
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i bought this cabel:
Delock-HDMI-1-4-kabel-A-A-samec-samec-15m with ethernet, and so far I have not experienced any problems. This Cable cost me 675 czk (34 USD).
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post #185 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

that definitely looks like a bum unit.....you should have tried one more replacement

I suppose. I hate to tear through their entire stock of special ordered HD33's AND 3010's. And as ack_bk says, I'm not going to keep it due to lag. I can successfully review it even with the blinking.
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post #186 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Originally Posted by xhonzi
3010

Lag:
To better compare to DefianceCp's figures, I downloaded the timer and took some photos of my laptop and the 3010 to measure lag that way as well. Doing some quick math as I took the pictures, I think the lag was about 80 ms +/-5 ms. It didn't seem to matter whether it was VGA or Display Port->HDMI. I loaded the pics on my pc to make a more accurate assessment of the times, but haven't done that yet.


After looking at the pics, they were almost all at 78 ms, regardless of VGA or Display Port->HDMI. I did have three (out of 15) of the VGAs that came out at 62 ms, but maybe that's an artifact of the camera.

So.. who wants to guess? Is my laptop 18 ms faster than defiancecp's monitor, or is my 3010 18 ms slower than his 3010? This does seem to be an argument for using Rockband as maybe a more consistent currency. I should have tested the HD33 whilst I had it.
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post #187 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 01:47 PM
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Eh, definitely could be faster than my monitor.
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post #188 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 02:25 PM
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You would think they could make these panels refresh extreamly fast considering their size compared to a big ol' LCD monitor.
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post #189 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

You would think they could make these panels refresh extreamly fast considering their size compared to a big ol' LCD monitor.

It's not the panel refresh speed- it's the time the PJ takes to deliver the picture to the panels.
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post #190 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 04:22 PM
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Is anyone worried that today's 3D PJ's (especially 3010 and HD33) won't be compatible with The Hobbit's 48fps 3D? And that it's GOING TO BE AWESOME?

I sort of am... especially if that takes off.

I'm also concerned about the present general lack of support for 3D@1080p@60hz. Today's gaming consoles can't produce that image... but I'm guessing they'll be here before we know it.
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post #191 of 366 Old 11-08-2011, 05:12 PM
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So I have been MIA for a couple of days due to fixing up my new house and I got in trouble for posting about where I bought my 3010 and what kind of a deal I found and a coupon to use. My bad haha should have read the rules more clearly.

However, I finally got my 3010 mounted, my screen put up and everything is a go! Other than being slightly pissed about my screen (it might not be a big deal - its a 120inch fixed screen that was mailed to me and is pretty wrinkley from shipping. Supposedly those will fade in time, but I'm not holding my breath... The non wrinkled part looks great though haha). Anyway the projector is phenomenal. I truly can't sing its praises enough. Its plenty bright, even with a skylight in between it and the screen. And with french doors in my living room without shades. I watched pirahnas 3d and it was awesome. I couldn't hear the fan or auto-iris at all (though I do have a surround sound system so it would have to be pretty loud to compete... But even in quiet scenes I didn't hear it). I watched Monday night football last night and noticed zero lag. That's something I would notice pretty strongly. Speaking of lag - I'm hesitant how to say this next part: I played some (though not a ton) of ps3 online, including Black Ops and FIFA. I saw NO dicernable lag. Zero. I cannot speak to PC gaming, but on PS3 I haven't noticed ANY lag. Frankly, I think anyone who claims otherwise is suffering from a "placebo" effect from reading the stats. I held my own just fine on there - same as if it was hooked up to my DLP. I have heard some people say if you're not a "hardcore" gamer you won't notice. I again call BS. I consider myself a hardcore gamer and the ONLY way I could see this "lag" be a potential issue is if you are playing a FPS on pc. Otherwise don't let anyone else fool you. Finally, for those who asked some time ago (I was concerned about this too) I run the video from my ps3 to the 3010 but run sound from the ps3 to my receiver via digital out. There is no lip synch issues or lag whatsoever. Its a non-issue. A quick word on 3d - it looked awesome (better than any movie theatre I have been to). I didn't notice any "crosstalk" but I'm not a 3d expert. The projector and ps3 worked real nice together though for 3d and it was a breeze to "set up" if you can even call it that. Glasses were quick to sync and didn't lose connection once. There was no interference with any of my remotes. I haven't seen the HD33 and I'm sure its great, but I will tell you from my experience, the 3010 is awesome. More than I needed. Pics don't do it justice obviously.
LL
LL
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post #192 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElVasco View Post

So I have been MIA for a couple of days due to fixing up my new house and I got in trouble for posting about where I bought my 3010 and what kind of a deal I found and a coupon to use. My bad haha should have read the rules more clearly.

However, I finally got my 3010 mounted, my screen put up and everything is a go! Other than being slightly pissed about my screen (it might not be a big deal - its a 120inch fixed screen that was mailed to me and is pretty wrinkley from shipping. Supposedly those will fade in time, but I'm not holding my breath... The non wrinkled part looks great though haha). Anyway the projector is phenomenal. I truly can't sing its praises enough. Its plenty bright, even with a skylight in between it and the screen. And with french doors in my living room without shades. I watched pirahnas 3d and it was awesome. I couldn't hear the fan or auto-iris at all (though I do have a surround sound system so it would have to be pretty loud to compete... But even in quiet scenes I didn't hear it). I watched Monday night football last night and noticed zero lag. That's something I would notice pretty strongly. Speaking of lag - I'm hesitant how to say this next part: I played some (though not a ton) of ps3 online, including Black Ops and FIFA. I saw NO dicernable lag. Zero. I cannot speak to PC gaming, but on PS3 I haven't noticed ANY lag. Frankly, I think anyone who claims otherwise is suffering from a "placebo" effect from reading the stats. I held my own just fine on there - same as if it was hooked up to my DLP. I have heard some people say if you're not a "hardcore" gamer you won't notice. I again call BS. I consider myself a hardcore gamer and the ONLY way I could see this "lag" be a potential issue is if you are playing a FPS on pc. Otherwise don't let anyone else fool you. Finally, for those who asked some time ago (I was concerned about this too) I run the video from my ps3 to the 3010 but run sound from the ps3 to my receiver via digital out. There is no lip synch issues or lag whatsoever. Its a non-issue. A quick word on 3d - it looked awesome (better than any movie theatre I have been to). I didn't notice any "crosstalk" but I'm not a 3d expert. The projector and ps3 worked real nice together though for 3d and it was a breeze to "set up" if you can even call it that. Glasses were quick to sync and didn't lose connection once. There was no interference with any of my remotes. I haven't seen the HD33 and I'm sure its great, but I will tell you from my experience, the 3010 is awesome. More than I needed. Pics don't do it justice obviously.


Thanks, I appreciate hearing your views. Any further pics would be appreciated too, regardless of the justice they do to it!
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post #193 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 02:45 PM
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just pulled the trigger on the Epson. Now in the market for a Tab Tensioned Motorized Projection Screen.

Sorry but I'm a total noob re: 3d projection

I'm looking for advice on how big I should go.

Primary seating places eyes about 11-13 feet from the screen, but according to the manual, I'll have enough throw distance with my configuration to easily get a 133" diagonal picture. My question: Is that too big given the viewing distance constraint? Would it kill 3d viewing?

Though the room is painted chocolate with blackout curtains on the windows, assume some ambient light

Also curious what gain I should get for the screen material. Thanks in advance. This thread has been very helpful.

Another question: is there an ideal vertical placement for 3d viewing? Do I have to have the center of the screen at eye level? This room has 10 foot ceilings.
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post #194 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElVasco View Post

I watched Monday night football last night and noticed zero lag. That's something I would notice pretty strongly. Speaking of lag - I'm hesitant how to say this next part: I played some (though not a ton) of ps3 online, including Black Ops and FIFA. I saw NO dicernable lag. Zero. I cannot speak to PC gaming, but on PS3 I haven't noticed ANY lag. Frankly, I think anyone who claims otherwise is suffering from a "placebo" effect from reading the stats. I held my own just fine on there - same as if it was hooked up to my DLP. I have heard some people say if you're not a "hardcore" gamer you won't notice. I again call BS. I consider myself a hardcore gamer and the ONLY way I could see this "lag" be a potential issue is if you are playing a FPS on pc. Otherwise don't let anyone else fool you.

ElVasco- I'm happy/jealous you're not suffering from lag the way I was. Similar to how I'm happy/jealous for and of those that don't suffer from RBE the way I do. The last thing I want to do is convince you to see lag that you aren't currently seeing, but there is that risk in what I'm about to ask you...

First of all, you mention lag on sports right before you talk about gaming lag. To be clear, "input lag" is something you'd never complain about when watching sports or anything else. Perhaps you're thinking of "low refresh rate" or "low video quality" which might lead to a smearing or a muddy look to the picture, or even figures "lagging around the screen". This has nothing to do with input lag.

Input lag is the time from when the picture is received at the display to when it is actually displayed. If it were a full second, you'd notice it when watching TV, Movies, etc. since the perfect picture wouldn't be 'synched' with the sound. You'd hear the sound a full second before you saw lips move, guns fired, goal-units scored, etc... However, even at 100 ms, you probably won't notice it during non-interactive viewing (anything but games).

However, your experiences might be completely valid if your particular until has less lag than the ones the rest of us have had. We could determine this if you're willing to do some objective tests. Do you have access to Rockband 2 or 3 and an auto-calibrating guitar? Would you be willing to auto calibrate the game and tell us what the numbers are? Mine was consistently betwixt 108 and 112 ms. If not, perhpaps you have a PC or a laptop you can use to do a different, slightly less objective test: Run this timer http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229335064 on both displays at the same time and take a high speed photo of both. Your projector will show an earlier (older) time than the other display. The difference between them will tell you how much slower the PJ is than your PC display, which doesn't tell us everything if we don't know how fast or slow the PC display is... but it will give us a ballpark idea.

My results were 18 ms slower than defiancecp's. Which possibly means his 3010 is a little faster than mine (and his satisfaction is a little higher as well). Perhaps yours is ever faster than his- hence your high level of satisfaction.

It would be interesting to know.
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post #195 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanman1975 View Post

just pulled the trigger on the Epson. Now in the market for a Tab Tensioned Motorized Projection Screen.

Sorry but I'm a total noob re: 3d projection

I'm looking for advice on how big I should go.

Primary seating places eyes about 11-13 feet from the screen, but according to the manual, I'll have enough throw distance with my configuration to easily get a 133" diagonal picture. My question: Is that too big given the viewing distance constraint? Would it kill 3d viewing?

Though the room is painted chocolate with blackout curtains on the windows, assume some ambient light

Also curious what gain I should get for the screen material. Thanks in advance. This thread has been very helpful.

Another question: is there an ideal vertical placement for 3d viewing? Do I have to have the center of the screen at eye level? This room has 10 foot ceilings.

You can use this calculator to help determine the the best seating distance to recommended screen size (THX):http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html

Personally, I think 133" from 11-13' is a little big for my liking, but some people love this. I would get the projector and try some various screen sized on a wall or sheet to find the size you like the most.

With the lumens you could get a higher contrast grey screen to help with black levels/contrast. Otherwise I like the white screens in the 1.1-1.3 range.
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post #196 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Art posted the correct calibration settings for 3010 (its nice of him to acknowledge me for pointing out that initially he had HD33 settings in there )

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...alibration.php
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post #197 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanman1975 View Post

just pulled the trigger on the Epson. Now in the market for a Tab Tensioned Motorized Projection Screen.

Sorry but I'm a total noob re: 3d projection

I'm looking for advice on how big I should go.

Primary seating places eyes about 11-13 feet from the screen, but according to the manual, I'll have enough throw distance with my configuration to easily get a 133" diagonal picture. My question: Is that too big given the viewing distance constraint? Would it kill 3d viewing?

Though the room is painted chocolate with blackout curtains on the windows, assume some ambient light

Also curious what gain I should get for the screen material. Thanks in advance. This thread has been very helpful.

Another question: is there an ideal vertical placement for 3d viewing? Do I have to have the center of the screen at eye level? This room has 10 foot ceilings.

I found a calculator online that says 40 degrees viewing angle is ideal for an immersive experience while not being so big to add eye strain. For my seating distance of 10.5 feet I made a 104" DIY screen. It is very much like sitting in the sweet spot of a cinema.

Having the projector centered vertically at eye level would be nice, but I don't think it being higher is much different . The 3D effect is still fine. I have my screen set so eye level is around 1/3rd from the bottom due to speakers underneath. 3D is great.
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post #198 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 07:28 PM
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Damnit, I am going crazy trying to pick between the HD3300 or the 3010. I currently have a Mitsubishi HD1000U DLP projector that I project from the ground with...
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post #199 of 366 Old 11-09-2011, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post

Damnit, I am going crazy trying to pick between the HD3300 or the 3010. I currently have a Mitsubishi HD1000U DLP projector that I project from the ground with...

It is a tough choice. Tradeoffs and pros and cons for both. Either should be a big step up over the 1000u.
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post #200 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 12:15 AM
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Question about DLP "pop". I've been waiting for an inexpensive 3D option to replace my aging Optoma HD70 720p projector and with the HD33 on backorder in every B&M store near me I bought the 3010 yesterday and ended up returning it today.

I didn't really have any issues with the 3010 but I expected to be wowed by the difference between 720p and 1080p and although it looked better I wasn't wowed by the 2d and just couldn't justify $1700 for 3D. I've read posts where people have said DLP tends to pop while LCD tends to have a more cinema like image and maybe I'm just used to DLP. I thought the 3010s picture looked very good but seemed was just missing something, it just looked smooth and dull and just didn't have the crispness and sparkle I'm looking for, is that the pop people refer to?

I'm still planning on trying out the HD33 once a store near me gets it in stock but now I'm worried I'm just expecting to much of an improvement over 720p and won't be happy with the 33 either for the price. It was bittersweet returning the 3010 today because I loved the 3D on the 120" screen, I just want more crispness in the 2d.
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post #201 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 06:25 AM
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Hi, I got a FAVI motorized screen 1.3 Gain 120" 4:3 for less than $400. Nice quality materials. It was on ebay.
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post #202 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post

Damnit, I am going crazy trying to pick between the HD3300 or the 3010. I currently have a Mitsubishi HD1000U DLP projector that I project from the ground with...

Same here. My first post in these threads, but I'm reading them all with great interest. My trusty old Toshiba 65" rear projector is on it's last legs. It may go tomorrow or it may last another 6 months. I don't think I'll get a year out of the old gal so I'm in the research and planning stages right now.

My plan so far: I'll be projecting about 12' and am planning on a 106" screen. Great light control in the room. I can mount at the top plane of the screen. DIY screen using Seymour acoustically transparent material. I never had a projector so I'm sure I would be blown away by either of the projectors. I do have a friend who comes over often who claims he is rainbow sensitive...
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post #203 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 07:36 AM
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Even for RBE sensitive people, it's usually not the end of the world, I mean it's only really dark scenes or very high contrasty scenes.

With a 6x color wheel like the Optoma hd33, it's unlikely he would see many rainbows unless you are watching it way brighter than normal.


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post #204 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 08:21 AM
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finally got my hd33 up and running....this is my first projector....so im a noob...but it looks great...3d looks great....and the image looks good right out of the box....played some mw3 to test the INPUT lag....its slight but its good enough for the projector.........i do most my pc gaming on my (almost) no lag monitor and console will go on this projector.......seeing that the 3010 MAY have double the lag.....im sure the 3010 throws a great image..but for me i would like to console game on the projector..... im pretty glad i opted for (potential) lower lag vs. higher lumens........... overall...very satisfied...my gf is pleasantly suprised with the quality who was a skeptic due to past projectors seen at friends places...
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post #205 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Even for RBE sensitive people, it's usually not the end of the world, I mean it's only really dark scenes or very high contrasty scenes.

With a 6x color wheel like the Optoma hd33, it's unlikely he would see many rainbows unless you are watching it way brighter than normal.

Eh... I may be the most RBE sensitive guy on earth, but I definitely find it to be "the end of the world". Inasmuch as a $1.5k projector not working out can be considered such.
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post #206 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

If not, perhpaps you have a PC or a laptop you can use to do a different, slightly less objective test: Run this timer http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229335064 on both displays at the same time and take a high speed photo of both. Your projector will show an earlier (older) time than the other display. The difference between them will tell you how much slower the PJ is than your PC display, which doesn't tell us everything if we don't know how fast or slow the PC display is... but it will give us a ballpark idea.

I haven't run the test listed above, but after reading the site explaining it, frankly I think the method might be flawed and generate inaccurate results (someone correct my logic if you see an error).

:-)

The method mentioned using a video card with two outputs in clone mode. While i imagine it depends slightly in the way each video card (and their respective drivers) do the "cloning", my understanding is that typically this does involve some level of video memory copying... ie: each screen has two separate buffers in memory of the video card (if a single card) - which is what allows the screens to be able to have two separate images if you have them that way. In clone mode, I understand the driver actually copies memory from one buffer into the other.

My understanding as well, is that typically one buffer is written FIRST, before that data is copied to the other. Thus, the video card itself may very well induce lag when cloning is setup.

Again, please correct me if this is not the way this is done nowadays. But if this is the case, then I'd imagine that depending on which port you plugged the projector and monitor into, you'll either increase or decrease the amount of lag seen with the projector, but the amount of lag that the cloning adds. (BTW using two separate video cards for this would DEFINITELY introduce lag here since copying will DEFINITELY take place. My only question is if the drivers might be smart enough to write to both memory locations at the same time when using two ports off the SAME video card (or if perhaps they map each display to the same memory buffer - definitely not though if the output resolution or refresh rate is different) - my guess is no - typical use cases for cloning probably aren't to ensure screens synced between two cloned screens in a gaming environment - not to mention that this WOULD create lag for BOTH screens if this were done (but make them somewhat consistent)).

Of course I'm willing to admit I'm wrong with how the cards and drivers do cloning if someone can point me to a reference. I also admit that this may not be 100ms of lag due to cloning, but it probably adds up.

Another possible difference would be if the screen resolution of each port (ie: for the monitor and projector) were set to different resolutions (due to scaling) or refresh rates.

Assuming I'm correct, the best way to test this would be instead to NOT use cloning, but instead to use a splitter (which would be much easier to do with analog VGA on each). That would eliminate any lag due to "cloning".

That said, even with that, another factor would be that even if the output resolution and refresh rate were the same, if either the monitor or projector weren't cable of natively displaying that resolution, the circuitry in the CRT or projector itself would scale. So in order words, if they're not both 1920x1080 NO interlaced (progressive) displays, there would be additional lag to convert this. This would invalidate the test to some degree since my guess is that you typically wouldn't be running the games, etc, in a mode that you'd want it to scale by default (yes in many cases perhaps, but remember the idea here is to measure lag of the projector on an equal footing).

Ok, so if you don't have a way to split the signal and have to use the cloning technique, I'd suggest hooking the PJ and monitor up to each port and running a few tests (let's say 3) and averaging the numbers you get. Then REVERSE which one is hooked up where (without changing anything on the computer) and run 3 more tests and average that. Subtract the two results from one another and divide by 2, and you should have a more accurate lag figure. If they're both relatively the same, then perhaps there is no cloning lag in your setup, but I still think trying this makes a MUCH more accurate test.

One additional thing to mention... Most projectors (and some monitors) also have default settings that do image processing BEFORE displaying the image on the screen. This creates additional lag as well. Projectors generally have much more advanced image processing capabilities than a monitor (as typically a monitor doesn't need it - software in the PC or the video card typically is used to change this). As a result, my guess is to get the best picture, projector manufactures have many of these settings on by default.

I'd say that the only accurate test would be to turn off ALL of this that is possible on both monitor and PJ. ie: thinks like enhanced sharpness (especially when related to parts of the image versus just the whole), enhancing certain colors over others, automatic iris, etc. I think its only "fair" to turn off all of this possible.

Now once that is done and you have your numbers, you'd have the theoretical best lag for the PJ. Then you need to decide if the display is something you'd actually good enough (without the enhancements turned on) for playing the games you'd like. So I'd suggest starting with all of these off and slowly tweaking settings until you get a more palatable screen on the PJ for playing games, and then run the tests again. My guess is (if you're conservative about turning on the enhancements and first try those that require the least amount of image processing (ie: whole screen color adjustments, etc)), that your lag when you run the tests again will be slightly if not MUCH better.

Just an educated guess, haven't tried that, but I think this would help.

SO in summary, deficencies I see in the lag test mentioned by the link include:

1. Cloning of displays between the ports on the card typically involves memory copies by the driver (with one memory buffer typically getting written first), thus this could introduce lag. Suggestion: either don't use cloning and try a video (most likely VGA) splitter, or else run two sets of tests swapping cables between tests.

2. If resolution of each screen is not set the same, then the video card may do scaling to match the monitor resolution, thus introducing lag.

3. If refresh rates are different for monitor and PJ, then this could account for some level of lag.

4. If output resolution of the video card (and refresh) are the same but not the native resolution of both the monitor and PJ, then the electronics on board will need to scale the image before it goes to the screen, resulting in additional lag. NOTE: THis may not apply to CRTs since they just change the sweep rates of the electron beam for different resolutions typically - no need to scale pixels like an LCD monitor or projector (LCD or DLP) would need to do.

5. Any advanced image processing done by the monitor or PJ will certainly add some level of lag. Especially things that are done to regions of the screen versus the whole screen (in most cases). Such as "thin" or "thick" line sharpening, color scaling for some colors, dynamic iris (I would imagine, though technically not a digital image enhancement), etc. Note that the 3010 has a ton of these options, and projectors typically have more than monitors since PJ manufacturers can't rely upon assumptions to assume that other input devices would handle this (ie: different BR/DVD players, game systems, may provide limited or no image enhancment - not to mention that this is how PJ manufacturers differentiate themselves when using the same panels as other vendors, etc).


So not saying that once you take this into consideration that the 3010 will come out showing little lag, perhaps it will still be bad. No idea. Just stating that IMHO the methodology here could use some tweaking.

Even if all of these items above only provide minimal effect to the lag measurements (ie: tens of ms or less), when you add them all up, that can be significant.

Also note that even comparing a CRT with an LCD monitor you will note that the LCD will typically have more lag anyway (which is why they recommended CRT).

Of course, please feel to disagree with me... I'm learning here too.
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post #207 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 11:15 AM
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BTW - since many may not read my novel above (apologies again for the length), I would suggest:

* Measuring lag with cables hooked up one way (ie: monitor to port 1, PJ to port 2 on card), and then swapping the cables again and rerun the test to compare the numbers. (NO changes on the PC in between)
* Ensuring that the output resolution of each port is set the same to not add lag due to scaling
* Ensure that the refresh rate for each port is the same
* Ensure that the default resolution of both PJ and monitor is the same and that this is the setting you're testing from the PC (Note, not aware of any 1920x1080 CRTs out there so most likely with a CRT you can't do this, would probably need a 1080p LCD (again note that many "1080p" LCD monitors are often 1980x1200, so still not a perfect match, unless you can tell the monitor NOT to scale the 1080 up to 1200).
* Recommend splitting from a single video out instead of using cloning (in which case many of the above are taking care of).
* Turn off ALL image enhancements possible on the PJ and monitor prior to doing the tests. (especially any digital enhancements).

My guess is you'll see the lag after doing this as at least somewhat less. Only a guess, but would be interested in hearing the results...
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post #208 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 11:30 AM
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The measurement method is not 100% perfect, but it's well-established to be a "pretty good" method, and definitely serves as a fair way to compare different models.

Some points:

-While there is potential for some introduced lag due to video memory copying, memory bandwidth on any modern video card would make copying a two-dimensional desktop a matter of single-digit milliseconds. Further, the direction of bias would be completely unpredictable.

-For testing validity, a monitor should be chosen with the same native display resolution as the projector, and the resolution sent should be that resolution. Thus, scaling would not come into play. (As a note, resolution scaling for this purposes would introduce lag in the reference, meaning numbers measured would be lower than actual - NOT inflated)

-VGA splitter is not a good solution. VGA being an analog signal, it must be processed via a>d conversion in order to be displayed.



In short, this test via HDMI on a native 1080p reference monitor with low refresh at 1080p resolution, with all projector processing turned off (as it was), would have the following actual biases:

+/- up to 1ms memory copying for cloning functionality
- up to Xms (whatever lag of reference screen is) for reference screen
- 0ms for processing options enabled in projector menu (all were disabled)
- 0ms for A>D conversion of signal (using native digital signal)


So, if the reference monitor has a lag of, say, 15ms, that gives you an ending bias of -15ms +/- 1ms

In other words, measurements of around 60ms could definitely be wrong, but only within the boundaries of the biases - so it definitely not less than 59ms, and possibly as much as 76ms (in the scenario above. Unfortunately I'm not sure what the lag is on my monitor, but I think based on others seeing about 18ms worse results, it seems possible that it's in the 15-20ms range.

In reference to your suggestions for testing:

-swapping the cables is a good way to eliminate mirroring bias, but we're talking nearly-immeasurable differences. No way copying from one page in vram to another is even 1ms. Worth a try to confirm, but if there's any difference your video card manufacturer REALLY screwed something up.

-Cloning forces same resolution on my pc, Which is fine since 1080p is native for both displays.

-Agreed on ensuring no scaling on either display.

-Splitting video is not workable since VGA would then need to be A/D converted inside the display devices, introducing what could be significant -and significantly different- lag into each chain independently, and splitting hdmi introduces splitter lag (since it's handled digitally) and possibly the same 'page copying' issue depending on how the splitter works. And again, this comes back to eliminating what should be a completely insubstantial bias.

-Definitely turn off all enhancements, but I think everyone here who has done the test started out by doing this. I know I spent hours searching for different enhancements to turn off, but nothing helped.
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post #209 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hraynor View Post

One additional thing to mention... Most projectors (and some monitors) also have default settings that do image processing BEFORE displaying the image on the screen. This creates additional lag as well. Projectors generally have much more advanced image processing capabilities than a monitor (as typically a monitor doesn't need it - software in the PC or the video card typically is used to change this). As a result, my guess is to get the best picture, projector manufactures have many of these settings on by default.

You're absolutely correct about this. What you might not understand is that the 3010 seemingly has no way of turning any of this processing off. There is no feature by feature control and there is no "game mode" that turns them all down or off. So that is, in fact, the cause of input lag that we're complaining about.

And, as defiancecp said (and I readily admitted), the two monitor approach isn't exact. But it is "good enough" to give you ballpark figures. It's stupid, and maybe somewhat counter-intuitive, but it seems to me that the Rockband figures are more reliable.

What I'd really like to know at this point is whether the input lag I'm experiencing on my 3010 is the rule for 3010s or the exception.

I played some 3D Gears of War 3 last night (very fun, and the 3D I found added to the experience) and found the lag to be all but unnoticeable in everything by sniping. I'm sure all of my other actions were somewhat hindered by the lag, but nothing I would have put my finger on.
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post #210 of 366 Old 11-10-2011, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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