Official Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 5010 / 6010 thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 3372 Old 03-04-2012, 04:01 PM
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I know someone who purchased the 6010. They are not very technical, so I'm looking into this for them. I don't have the Epson, so I'm reaching out to this group...

He indicated that the zoom position has drifted twice now. After setting the zoom correctly for his screen using the projector's test/setup image, one time he turned on the PJ and it was projecting larger than his screen. After fixing this, a second time he turned on the projector and it was projecting smaller than his screen.

Has anyone seen zoom drift with this PJ? I know it's a manual dial so any drift would need to be mechanical in nature. Also, the PJ is ceiling mounted (ladder needed to access), so it's not like someone is messing with it.

The second behavior he mentioned is that the picture is very green for the first several minutes after power on. I couldn't get him to tell me the specific duration, but it sounds like between 2 and 5 minutes. Afterwards, however, the colors look correct.

Other than these two issues, he very much likes the 6010.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on these two topics.

... Altan
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post #1172 of 3372 Old 03-04-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

I know someone who purchased the 6010. . .
Has anyone seen zoom drift with this PJ?

The second behavior he mentioned is that the picture is very green for the first several minutes after power on.

... Altan

Yes on both counts. The zoom drift is subtle. The green is probably less than 2 minutes during start-up. I find the projector great on both 2D and 3D.
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post #1173 of 3372 Old 03-04-2012, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

Anyone else have this happen?

Sometimes when I start up my 6010 the fan revs up and stays reved up for sometimes a full minute, then it calms down and a picture comes on. By reved up I mean twice as loud as dynamic mode, this time today it did it and got stuck, it reved for around 11/2 minutes and then I got a red light, I rebooted it and all is fine.......for now.

Call Epson and request a new lamp.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21640173


I spoke to soon.
So, I had the bulb replaced over a month ago when the issue occured more than 3 times and lastnight, I got the flashing red LAMP LED.
After it shutdown, I unplugged it. Waited 5 minutes. Plugged it back in and it was good.
This usually fixes it.
The bulb replacement appeared to fix it or may be the new bulb went bad???

I think I'll be requesting a replacement unit.

2014
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post #1174 of 3372 Old 03-04-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Yes on both counts. The zoom drift is subtle. The green is probably less than 2 minutes during start-up. I find the projector great on both 2D and 3D.

I rarely have any zoom drift....the green I do have all the time, but it goes away quickly...just the panels warming up, or at least that is what it seams.
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post #1175 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dna View Post

Conclusion
All three tests above indicate that my Epson 5010 exhibits no sign that there is motorized pixel alignment of the LCD panels on any of the 4 corners or any of the other grid alignments. All pixel alignment appears to be done using "digital" interpolation. It is possible that my projector is defective, or there is some other condition in which panel motion occurs, but I doubt it. If you can provide evidence to support "Motorized Pixel Alignment" I'd love to see it.

Implications

For many Epson 5010/6010 users, it probably doesn't matter that the Epson doesn't have motorized pixel alignment. The digital alignment it does have allows one to converge all colors within 1/2 of a pixel. That's better than most LCD and LCOS/SXRD projectors that don't have any type of pixel alignment. However, it does mean that the user needs to be careful to avoid double lines as I've shown in my pictures. These double lines blur the picture. I wish Epson had only permitted moving in whole pixel increments. I see no advantage to their interpolation method.

So I got my reading glasses out and tested too. It looks like you are right. I think there are two more important implications though.
1)Not only should you adjust in increments of 8 to prevent pixel splitting, you should adjust all 4 corners to the same values or there will have to be pixel spliting inbetween the corners. Come up with a happy medium.
2)Where do these pixels we are moving around come from? This has to drop our remaining resolution a few pixels.

Conclusion: Maybe we should be sending these things in for replacement when the alignment isn't right. The pixel alignment tool is not a good replacement for quality conrol. My old panny 2000 was perfect out of box, and still perfect after 10k hours. On the other hand, the projector still looks amazing. On the third hand my start up problems alone are enough reason to send it back, so I think I should.
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post #1176 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

1)Not only should you adjust in increments of 8 to prevent pixel splitting, you should adjust all 4 corners to the same values or there will have to be pixel spliting inbetween the corners. Come up with a happy medium.
2)Where do these pixels we are moving around come from? This has to drop our remaining resolution a few pixels.

Conclusion: Maybe we should be sending these things in for replacement when the alignment isn't right. The pixel alignment tool is not a good replacement for quality conrol.

Good points. Concerning your item #1 above, I've been pondering the pixel splitting "radiating" issue as well. The same problem applies to the inside grid intersection alignments as well. That is, setting the pixel alignment so there is no pixel-splitting at one point may cause pixel splitting nearby. (That's why I wish Epson's algorithm didn't do pixel splitting. It could just move to the next pixel.) Your idea of not adjusting the inside pixels may be the best approach assuming they aren't too far off and that there is no pixel splitting in the corners.

As far as your item #2 about resolution, I'm not sure. There's no loss of the green resolution, I assume. If red or blue are moved over the maximum 3 pixels, for example, then that means there was already a loss of 3 pixels because they are outside the green pixels. Since the panel isn't moving, nothing that is done digitally can restore that loss. So I think 3 pixels loss Horz. and Vert. for red and blue would be the worst case. (Any more than 3 pixels can't be fixed digitally. The projector would have to be returned.) Three pixel loss doesn't seem significant to me. However, the loss of resolution caused by pixel splitting smear could be as bad as 50% for red and blue.

Regarding your last sentence, ("The pixel alignment tool is not a good replacement for quality conrol."), true. However, if used carefully, I think it is better than nothing. If you do what you suggested and adjust the middle of the screen by setting all corners to the same value, you should be able to get the middle of the screen to not much greater than 1/2 pixel off with no pixel smear. That's pretty good, I think. I suspect that for most projectors (at least, for mine) the rest of the screen won't be too much worse than that even without adjusting the inside pixels.

I'm not sure that projectors that don't have user digital pixel adjustment have better quality control. When I got my Sony VPL-100 SXRD projector several years ago it didn't have any pixel adjustment and there were a lot of people who returned their projector several times before they got one that was reasonably well aligned. This was for a $9,000 projector.

- David
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post #1177 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dna View Post

This morning I experiment some more with the initial 4 corner alignment. If it was motorized, I wouldn't expect to see any of the double lines you can see in the above post which I took in the middle of the screen. I would also expect to be able to move red and blue pixels outside of the green pixels on the outside lines. For example, if it was motorized, I'd expect to be able to move the red pixel to the left of the far left green line. I wouldn't expect to be able to do that if it was just digital pixel alignment. I'd also expect that if I was moving the entire panel that moving one corner would affect the entire screen. (Note: wnielsenbb discusses this issue in his post above. It wouldn't be possible to move all 4 corners if you move the panels unless you either squeezed or maybe tilted the panel --- neither of which sounds possible --- or used motorized on just one or two corners and interpolated the other corners.) I checked all three tests for all 4 corners.

David,

Thank you for taking the time to test this out and report your findings. The question I have is: Do you recommend adjusting the 4 corners first, then adjusting the intersection points (all in multiples of 8 to prevent pixel splitting), or skipping the 4 corners and start with the intersections first since these are the most critical viewing area? Have you tried to adjust the intersections then go back and adjust the 4 corners? I have noticed doing it this way can change your intersections cross-hairs settings.

Thanks
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post #1178 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

So I got my reading glasses out and tested too. It looks like you are right. I think there are two more important implications though.
1)Not only should you adjust in increments of 8 to prevent pixel splitting, you should adjust all 4 corners to the same values or there will have to be pixel spliting inbetween the corners. Come up with a happy medium.
2)Where do these pixels we are moving around come from? This has to drop our remaining resolution a few pixels.

Conclusion: Maybe we should be sending these things in for replacement when the alignment isn't right. The pixel alignment tool is not a good replacement for quality conrol. My old panny 2000 was perfect out of box, and still perfect after 10k hours. On the other hand, the projector still looks amazing. On the third hand my start up problems alone are enough reason to send it back, so I think I should.

Wnielsenbb,

Are you saying if we move the RED top left convergence line to say H: -8 then this will need to be mirrored to H: -8 on the remaining corners to avoid pixel splitting? When I go through and adjust the RED I get different values for each corner. Top left could be H: 0 V: 0, and the Top right could be H: 8 V: 0 for example. If I make the 4 corners the same values then the RED will be off by more than one pixel on the left side of the screen. It seems to me that the alignment grid gets stretched to match the green grid, and the panel itself is not actually moving (as stated before).
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post #1179 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

The question I have is: Do you recommend adjusting the 4 corners first, then adjusting the intersection points (all in multiples of 8 to prevent pixel splitting), or skipping the 4 corners and start with the intersections first since these are the most critical viewing area? Have you tried to adjust the intersections then go back and adjust the 4 corners? I have noticed doing it this way can change your intersections cross-hairs settings.

I need to be careful about my advice because I'm just going on what I see on my projector. I assume everyone else's projector works the same way as mine but I imagine their alignment issues may vary.

The corners affect alignment over a much larger area that the "inside" alignment, I believe. The corner adjustment affects at least a quarter or more of the screen. On my projector I only made fairly small inside adjustments. All my inside adjustments are either 0 or +/- 8. When I went back to the corners to check them, they were still fine. I suspect that if you adjusted the inside first, then the corners, you'd probably have to go back and do all the inside ones again.

Your question to Wnielsenbb is a good one. I'm interested in hearing his answer myself. Meanwhile, I'll think about it as well.

- David
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post #1180 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dna View Post

I need to be careful about my advice because I'm just going on what I see on my projector. I assume everyone else's projector works the same way as mine but I imagine their alignment issues may vary.

The corners affect alignment over a much larger area that the "inside" alignment, I believe. The corner adjustment affects at least a quarter or more of the screen. On my projector I only made fairly small inside adjustments. All my inside adjustments are either 0 or +/- 8. When I went back to the corners to check them, they were still fine. I suspect that if you adjusted the inside first, then the corners, you'd probably have to go back and do all the inside ones again.

Your question to Wnielsenbb is a good one. I'm interested in hearing his answer myself. Meanwhile, I'll think about it as well.

David,

No worries here on the advice. The advice you give is always spot on and I value it. As you know, we have the same 5010 model except mine is the 5010e, and I see exactly what you do. I will have to try and adjust the inside adjustments first this time and skip the 4 corners. When I noticed my inside adjustments had changed when I changed the 4 corners, I gave up and reset it and just did the 4 corners and called it a day. Why go through all that trouble only to have it change? You know what I mean? You are correct that the 4 corners adjustment affects a quarter of the screen, and explains why it would overwrite the inside adjustments.

Thanks again
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post #1181 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

Wnielsenbb,

Are you saying if we move the RED top left convergence line to say H: -8 then this will need to be mirrored to H: -8 on the remaining corners to avoid pixel splitting? When I go through and adjust the RED I get different values for each corner. Top left could be H: 0 V: 0, and the Top right could be H: 8 V: 0 for example. If I make the 4 corners the same values then the RED will be off by more than one pixel on the left side of the screen. It seems to me that the alignment grid gets stretched to match the green grid, and the panel itself is not actually moving (as stated before).

Yes, I believe that is what he is saying. Wnielsenbb is suggesting that when you adjust the corners you actually align the pixels about 1/3 into the picture. The reason for this is that if you have to make a compromise, it is better to get the middle area of the screen accurate since that's usually where the subject is.

Your next question gets the heart of the digital pixel adjustment problem. Namely, what is worse, pixel splitting or misconvergence? In the case of pixel splitting, you are decreasing resolution by up to 50% vertically and 50% horizontally so worse case is 75% decrease in resolution (1080 X 1920 to 540 X 960) for that color and you may still get color fringing. In the case of misconvergence, there is no decrease in resolution for that color but there may still be color fringing. Therefore, I think pixel splitting is worse unless mixconvergence is very far off (in which case you should consider returning your projector).

If you agree with the above, then it is better to set all 4 corners to the same values (and of course those values are ones that don't cause pixel-splitting) even if it causes significant misconvergence. The worst case would be one pixel anyway. If you are good in one corner and two pixels off on the other corner then go back to the first one and move it one pixel in the opposite direction so that you are now one pixel off in both corners (and presumably perfect somewhere in the middle.) Don't adjust inside pixels because any adjustment you make here will cause pixel-splitting somewhere! This is a slightly expanded version of what Wnielsenbb is suggesting. It seems reasonable to me.

- David
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post #1182 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dna View Post

Yes, I believe that is what he is saying. Wnielsenbb is suggesting that when you adjust the corners you actually align the pixels about 1/3 into the picture. The reason for this is that if you have to make a compromise, it is better to get the middle area of the screen accurate since that's usually where the subject is.

Your next question gets the heart of the digital pixel adjustment problem. Namely, what is worse, pixel splitting or misconvergence? In the case of pixel splitting, you are decreasing resolution by up to 50% vertically and 50% horizontally so worse case is 75% decrease in resolution (1080 X 1920 to 540 X 960) for that color and you may still get color fringing. In the case of misconvergence, there is no decrease in resolution for that color but there may still be color fringing. Therefore, I think pixel splitting is worse unless mixconvergence is very far off (in which case you should consider returning your projector).

If you agree with the above, then it is better to set all 4 corners to the same values (and of course those values are ones that don't cause pixel-splitting) even if it causes significant misconvergence. The worst case would be one pixel anyway. If you are good in one corner and two pixels off on the other corner then go back to the first one and move it one pixel in the opposite direction so that you are now one pixel off in both corners (and presumably perfect somewhere in the middle.) Don't adjust inside pixels because any adjustment you make here will cause pixel-splitting somewhere! This is a slightly expanded version of what Wnielsenbb is suggesting. It seems reasonable to me.

I agree. If you adjust horizontal to -8 on the top left, and the opposite corner is +8 it needs to cross over and be zero inbetween and every pixel between will be a split of varying magnitude.

"The worst case would be one pixel anyway." not really true. If the panel is really rotated it could be 4 pixels high on one side and 4 pixels low on the other side, and still be pixel split aligned, with -24 on one end and +24 on the other, but it wouldn't be pretty. Or maybe it would? Perhaps pixel splitting isn't as bad as it appears close up.
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post #1183 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

"The worst case would be one pixel anyway." not really true. If the panel is really rotated it could be 4 pixels high on one side and 4 pixels low on the other side, and still be pixel split aligned, with -24 on one end and +24 on the other, but it wouldn't be pretty. Or maybe it would? Perhaps pixel splitting isn't as bad as it appears close up.

I think we are talking about different things. I'm still talking about keeping all corner values the same. Let me give an example. Let's say that you set the upper left red Horizontal value to 0 and it lands on top of green. (For simplicity I'm using Horizontal and two corners but the same idea holds for vertical and all 4 corners.) Then you go over to the upper right and set it to 0. When you do that you see that red is two pixels to the left of green. So you go back to the upper left corner and set Horizontal to 8. Then you go to the upper right and set it to 8. At that point you see that each of the corners are one pixel off and about half way in the middle it is dead on. Nowhere on that line are there any split pixels because both corners are the same.

In the above example, we compromised the corners so that the center was the most accurate. If we did the same thing vertically, then the center of the screen would be the most accurate in this example. We took the worst case of 2 pixels off in one corner and turned it into 1 pixel off on both corners. Now let's take the case of 3 pixels off in one corner. In that case we return the projector. That's why I say the worst corrected case is 1 pixel off!

- David
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post #1184 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Perhaps pixel splitting isn't as bad as it appears close up.

Pixel splitting takes one pixel and turns it into two. One source pixel becomes two display pixels. This halves the resolution at this point, correct? If this happens on both the vertical and horizontal axes in the same point in the screen, it takes one pixel and turns it into four. That quarters the resolution. If that happens over a significant area of the screen, how could it not be bad!

- David
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post #1185 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

I rarely have any zoom drift....the green I do have all the time, but it goes away quickly...just the panels warming up, or at least that is what it seams.

No zoom drift here on mine. Might be defective if your friend is waiting around 30 mins for the projector to warm up, before doing adjustments? Mine has a little green hue on startup, but quickly goes away.
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post #1186 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Yes on both counts. The zoom drift is subtle. The green is probably less than 2 minutes during start-up. I find the projector great on both 2D and 3D.

Thanks.

What do you consider "subtle" for the zoom drift? For a 100" wide screen, are you talking 1/32 of an inch or are you talking an inch?

I've asked my friend to clarify how much drift he sees.
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post #1187 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dna View Post

Pixel splitting takes one pixel and turns it into two. One source pixel becomes two display pixels. This halves the resolution at this point, correct? If this happens on both the vertical and horizontal axes in the same point in the screen, it takes one pixel and turns it into four. That quarters the resolution. If that happens over a significant area of the screen, how could it not be bad!

It isn't really changing your resolution, but changing how that resolution is displayed. I assume it would be like anti-aliasing or font smoothing, but on small scale. I just set all mine to 4 off to get all split pixels. I am typing on this now. It does seem to affect sharpness in a very subtle way. It would probably take a side-by-side comparison (or better focus than I have) to tell the difference, and of course watching a movie would be impossible to tell.
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post #1188 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

Call Epson and request a new lamp.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21640173


I spoke to soon.
So, I had the bulb replaced over a month ago when the issue occured more than 3 times and lastnight, I got the flashing red LAMP LED.
After it shutdown, I unplugged it. Waited 5 minutes. Plugged it back in and it was good.
This usually fixes it.
The bulb replacement appeared to fix it or may be the new bulb went bad???

I think I'll be requesting a replacement unit.

This just happened to me as well tonight for the first time. I hope it doesnt happen again, the projector has only 174 hours on it so far.
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post #1189 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 04:46 PM
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This just happened to me as well tonight for the first time. I hope it doesnt happen again, the projector has only 174 hours on it so far.

Just done it to me three days in a row where I get a flashing red light and no picture, a reboot fixes it.............for now. I just emailed Epson, will keep you posted.

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post #1190 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 05:31 PM
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Just done it to me three days in a row where I get a flashing red light and no picture, a reboot fixes it.............for now. I just emailed Epson, will keep you posted.

Mine started it a month ago and only got worse. Just got a replacement and am happy so far. Bonus in that this iris is not nearly as noisy as last one.
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post #1191 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 06:47 PM
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I've had my 5010 for about 2 weeks now and just luvin' the awesome 2d image this projector showcases; haven't tried the 3d yet---still waiting on my 3d glasses.
But I still have one question for you 5010 owners: The lens shift dials on my 5010 feel kinda "loose" whenever I turn them. They don't feel tight and smooth like how the volume dial on a high-end AV receiver feels like when you turn the volume. The lens shift dials feel almost like they "fidget" just a bit when you turn them---like they are loose from the sprocket or something. But they do work though both shifting the image horizontally and vertically just as expected. I am just wondering if the lens shift dials on other 5010 owners out there feel the same way like mine?
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post #1192 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Yes on both counts. The zoom drift is subtle. The green is probably less than 2 minutes during start-up. I find the projector great on both 2D and 3D.

Thanks.

What do you consider "subtle" for the zoom drift? For a 100" wide screen, are you talking 1/32 of an inch or are you talking an inch?

I've asked my friend to clarify how much drift he sees.

Thanks.

What do you consider "subtle" for the zoom drift? For a 100" wide screen, are you talking 1/32 of an inch or are you talking an inch?

I've asked my friend to clarify how much drift he sees.

Quick follow up. The 6010 is in this drift state right now, so I asked him to measure it. The drift is 1 3/4 to 2 inches vertical about 1/4 to 1/2 inch horizontal. FWIW, the screen is 110 inches diagonal.

Drifting this much every week or so, and requiring use of a ladder to fix (since ceiling mounted), doesn't sound right.
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post #1193 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by madmyers View Post

quick follow up. The 6010 is in this drift state right now, so i asked him to measure it. The drift is 1 3/4 to 2 inches vertical about 1/4 to 1/2 inch horizontal. Fwiw, the screen is 110 inches diagonal.

Drifting this much every week or so, and requiring use of a ladder to fix (since ceiling mounted), doesn't sound right.

wow, not right!
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post #1194 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rexdragon View Post

I've had my 5010 for about 2 weeks now and just luvin' the awesome 2d image this projector showcases; haven't tried the 3d yet---still waiting on my 3d glasses.
But I still have one question for you 5010 owners: The lens shift dials on my 5010 feel kinda "loose" whenever I turn them. They don't feel tight and smooth like how the volume dial on a high-end AV receiver feels like when you turn the volume. The lens shift dials feel almost like they "fidget" just a bit when you turn them---like they are loose from the sprocket or something. But they do work though both shifting the image horizontally and vertically just as expected. I am just wondering if the lens shift dials on other 5010 owners out there feel the same way like mine?

Mine feels the same, kind of loose for sure...I assume it MUST be the mechanics inside, have to allow for this, or just plain cheap...but I am hoping for the former.
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post #1195 of 3372 Old 03-05-2012, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

I agree. If you adjust horizontal to -8 on the top left, and the opposite corner is +8 it needs to cross over and be zero inbetween and every pixel between will be a split of varying magnitude.

"The worst case would be one pixel anyway." not really true. If the panel is really rotated it could be 4 pixels high on one side and 4 pixels low on the other side, and still be pixel split aligned, with -24 on one end and +24 on the other, but it wouldn't be pretty. Or maybe it would? Perhaps pixel splitting isn't as bad as it appears close up.

Well I don't know, but I just played extensively with the convergeance settings on my 5010 this evening for the first time, using the alignment grid pattern, and I noticed something very odd - seems like when I have one of the corners selected to perform the adjustments, all the pixel adjustment is actually taking place in the horizontally opposite corner of the screen. That is to say, when the yellow box is in the upper left corner of the screen, all the pixel movement for both horizontal and vertical axis adjustment are taking place in the upper right corner of the screen... when I set the yellow box in the lower right corner, the actual pixel movement is occuring in the lower left corner of the screen...

So, while concentrating my view on the opposite corners while adjusting the pixels, I was able to get both red and blue pixels pretty much perfectly aligned with the green in all four corners of the screen; in the center of the screen, the red pixels were then maybe a half pixel off to the right, but dead on vertically. Blue pixels seem aligned almost perfectly over the entire screen. To achieve this, I was using adjustments right down to the individual pixel step, and not in multiples of 8 - when using only steps of 8, I could not come anywhere close to the alignment I have now.

The only thing I notice is that closer to the bottom part of the screen the pixels are not quite as sharp, and the grid lines look more like two pixels wide rather than one; I attribute this slight blur to lens shift, though, because that blur never changes no matter what the alignment settings are. My projector is mounted upside down on the ceiling with the lens level with the top of the screen edge, so I am using a good bit of lens shift. But, the pixels directly out in front of the projector, basically the top half of the screen or so, are pretty much perfectly crisp, square dots. I don't think I'll get it any better than that.

FEEL an awesome 3D Blu-ray movie in the Frey Theater - Now with projection in glorious "FREYMAX" 3D!

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post #1196 of 3372 Old 03-06-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by FreyTheater View Post

Well I don't know, but I just played extensively with the convergeance settings on my 5010 this evening for the first time, using the alignment grid pattern, and I noticed something very odd - seems like when I have one of the corners selected to perform the adjustments, all the pixel adjustment is actually taking place in the horizontally opposite corner of the screen. That is to say, when the yellow box is in the upper left corner of the screen, all the pixel movement for both horizontal and vertical axis adjustment are taking place in the upper right corner of the screen... when I set the yellow box in the lower right corner, the actual pixel movement is occuring in the lower left corner of the screen...

So, while concentrating my view on the opposite corners while adjusting the pixels, I was able to get both red and blue pixels pretty much perfectly aligned with the green in all four corners of the screen; in the center of the screen, the red pixels were then maybe a half pixel off to the right, but dead on vertically. Blue pixels seem aligned almost perfectly over the entire screen. To achieve this, I was using adjustments right down to the individual pixel step, and not in multiples of 8 - when using only steps of 8, I could not come anywhere close to the alignment I have now.

The only thing I notice is that closer to the bottom part of the screen the pixels are not quite as sharp, and the grid lines look more like two pixels wide rather than one; I attribute this slight blur to lens shift, though, because that blur never changes no matter what the alignment settings are. My projector is mounted upside down on the ceiling with the lens level with the top of the screen edge, so I am using a good bit of lens shift. But, the pixels directly out in front of the projector, basically the top half of the screen or so, are pretty much perfectly crisp, square dots. I don't think I'll get it any better than that.

The convergence adjustments are mirrored (reversed) when the projector is ceiling mounted. The yellow box corner is not where the adjustments are taking place, they happen on the opposite side. When mine was ceiling mounted, I noticed the bottom of the screen was not sharp at all because of the amount of lens shift (just like you describe). When I made a custom shelf mount for it this went away and made a huge difference. For some reason the 5010 doesn't like to be ceiling mounted with any amount of lens shift (as stated before).
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post #1197 of 3372 Old 03-06-2012, 08:35 AM
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As a note, I am struggling to get the Pixel Alignment "perfect" or close to perfect. I finally got a hold of support (had to really push them hard) and Epson Claims that "motorized" description on the Web Site is WRONG.

So, I am 99% certain all pixel adjustments are indeed "software related". I am trying to work with them to help us really understand the best method to align pixels. Also I am trying to get them to EXPLAIN what is going on so all of us can at least understand the concept behind it vs. just the marketing descriptions.

It is SOFTWARE that is driving the changes...period end of story.
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post #1198 of 3372 Old 03-06-2012, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CrocDoc View Post

The convergence adjustments are mirrored (reversed) when the projector is ceiling mounted. The yellow box corner is not where the adjustments are taking place, they happen on the opposite side. When mine was ceiling mounted, I noticed the bottom of the screen was not sharp at all because of the amount of lens shift (just like you describe). When I made a custom shelf mount for it this went away and made a huge difference. For some reason the 5010 doesn’t like to be ceiling mounted with any amount of lens shift (as stated before).

Ok, thanks for the info on the mirrored adjustments, Mr. Croc. So I wasn't going crazy after all...

So with your shelf mount, did you then lower the projector to be closer to the center-line of the screen? That would be impossible with my setup, as my basement theater ceiling is only 6' 6" high, and the center of the screen is only 42" up from the floor. The projector is mounted directly over a chair in my second row seating, with the bottom of the projector at 5' 8", so I cannot move it any lower. I have no choice but to use lens shift. It visually does not affect the clarity of the image while playing a movie at all - certainly not from normal seating distances - so I'm not overly concerned with the miniscule distortion caused by the lens shift.

FEEL an awesome 3D Blu-ray movie in the Frey Theater - Now with projection in glorious "FREYMAX" 3D!

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post #1199 of 3372 Old 03-06-2012, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FreyTheater View Post

Ok, thanks for the info on the mirrored adjustments, Mr. Croc.

It is Dr. Croc, M.D.

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post #1200 of 3372 Old 03-06-2012, 01:14 PM
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Conclusion

All three tests above indicate that my Epson 5010 exhibits no sign that there is motorized pixel alignment of the LCD panels on any of the 4 corners or any of the other grid alignments. All pixel alignment appears to be done using "digital" interpolation. It is possible that my projector is defective, or there is some other condition in which panel motion occurs, but I doubt it. If you can provide evidence to support "Motorized Pixel Alignment" I'd love to see it.

I am also 100% in agreement with your conclusion. I have tried many of the same tests you performed and witnessed the same results. Also, I think it is rather telling that Epson refers to the pixel alignment feature as "innovative" instead of "motorized" on the box itself. At first glance it sounded like an improvement until gradually I realized that it's probably a smoke-screen for last-minute cost cutting.


Another test I performed was to draw a 1-pixel red frame around the edge of the screen using my PC and then apply a 8-step shift to all four corners. After applying the shift, I observed that I was no longer able to see one side of the frame. This occurred regardless of which direction I attempted to shift the image (though obviously the missing side was different each time.)

I have concluded that this is because the interpolation algorithm has remapped that row/column completely off the physical display. For example, if I have shifted 8 steps up and am telling the computer to fill my row "0" with red, the projector now sees that as row "-1". Since there is no such row in the physical display it is simply not shown at all.

I would argue that if the PJ truly used a mechanical adjustment, then you would still be able to see all the edge pixels after these types of shifts. This assumes, of course, that there is no internal structure in the light path which might obstruct those pixels.
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