Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:39 AM
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He is saying different. If he plugs it directly into his projector. He gets horrid lag.

It shouldn't make a difference form either of the two.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

He is saying different. If he plugs it directly into his projector. He gets horrid lag.

It shouldn't make a difference form either of the two.

I'll be damned! You are right. In that case the only thing I could think of is that it either down-samples it to a lower resolution (which might have some effect, but I doubt it) or changes the color depth.

As far as I know, there is no way in hell it can "repair the delay" that happens inside the Epson. Simply not possible.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:52 AM
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I love how all us lag nerds are getting worked up over someone's posts that don't actually: 1) make sense 2) have any scientific merit.

He will show some results, and then be surprised how bad they are. Those of us with our old Epsons, Sanyos and Sonys will continue to smile and nod, knowing that someone out there is actually impressed with 80ms+ lag.

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Old 02-24-2012, 12:23 PM
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To clarify, What I am saying is that when I run HDMI straight from my PC/Xbox to the projector, I get the normal epson lag which is terrible. When I run the HDMI from PC/Xbox Through the onkyo and then output to the projector the lag is decreased. I am still working on borrowing a fast shutter speed camera from someone to do those test. No I am not impressed with the lag from the epson hooked up via a direct link. I have also owned an epson 6100, 8700ub, and a 8350. I am familiar with epson projectors. The 5010 has had the worst input lag of any of those models. I will report back later when I have the camera and some results.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:38 PM
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We know that's what your saying. That's why we are saying it shouldn't work like that.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

To clarify, What I am saying is that when I run HDMI straight from my PC/Xbox to the projector, I get the normal epson lag which is terrible. When I run the HDMI from PC/Xbox Through the onkyo and then output to the projector the lag is decreased. I am still working on borrowing a fast shutter speed camera from someone to do those test. No I am not impressed with the lag from the epson hooked up via a direct link. I have also owned an epson 6100, 8700ub, and a 8350. I am familiar with epson projectors. The 5010 has had the worst input lag of any of those models. I will report back later when I have the camera and some results.

Magic?
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ricwhite View Post

Magic?

Give the guy a break guys ! You laughed at the one foot cable with all your brilliant rocket science...Xionzi measured 20ms reduction in lag with it....now eat your words
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post


Give the guy a break guys ! You laughed at the one foot cable with all your brilliant rocket science...Xionzi measured 20ms reduction in lag with it....now eat your words

Imagine what an edge you will get if in fps games if you put two onkyo's in the processing chain. If my calculations are correct you may see the image before it is sent
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:31 AM
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Just an idea ... what would be the result if the av-receiver reduces the refresh rate of the source via handshake-procedure (e.g. to the halve) and doubles the frame-output ? CouldnĀ“t something like this not lead to a reduction of lag ?
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Give the guy a break guys ! You laughed at the one foot cable with all your brilliant rocket science...Xionzi measured 20ms reduction in lag with it....now eat your words

How do you even comfortably connect two massive devices with a thick one foot cable? Must look like some hot double sided dildo lesbian action! (think that scene from Requiem for a Dream)
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Grahut View Post

How do you even comfortably connect two massive devices with a thick one foot cable? Must look like some hot double sided dildo lesbian action! (think that scene from Requiem for a Dream)

Haha!

But seriously, the way I set it up is that I mounted the 3010 upside down on my ceiling and hanged the PS3 slim from ceiling right next to it (as it does not have any ceiling mount, you see) and the one foot cable nicely takes most of the weight (thanks to the hdmi clamps Epson included the HDMI connector seems to be holding up well too).....you may want keep area under the loosely hanging ps3 free just in case it falls down at some point....I am not too worried though as I put a bucket of water right beneath to cushion the fall....hopefully the power cord severs before it comes crashing to prevent any electirc shock. To get the aesthetics right, i may replace the bucket with an aquarium, i just jope no one notices it in the middle of the room. I probably will invest in an expensive extended warranty to cover this seemingly inevitable event.
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:00 AM
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OK, I'll bite. I want to see pictures of this setup LOL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Haha!

But seriously, the way I set it up is that I mounted the 3010 upside down on my ceiling and hanged the PS3 slim from ceiling right next to it (as it does not have any ceiling mount, you see) and the one foot cable nicely takes most of the weight (thanks to the hdmi clamps Epson included the HDMI connector seems to be holding up well too).....you may want keep area under the loosely hanging ps3 free just in case it falls down at some point....I am not too worried though as I put a bucket of water right beneath to cushion the fall....hopefully the power cord severs before it comes crashing to prevent any electirc shock. To get the aesthetics right, i may replace the bucket with an aquarium, i just jope no one notices it in the middle of the room. I probably will invest in an expensive extended warranty to cover this seemingly inevitable event.


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Old 02-28-2012, 10:22 AM
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Sorry guys, I had some unexpected family stuff come up. I have not forgotten about the test. I am trying to get it done as soon as I get a chance.

Andy
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Old 03-01-2012, 10:21 AM
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So what is the verdict on the Epson 8350 as far as input lag? I noticed on the first page that the test reported an average of ~18ms, but we have on poster in here who is reporting 42-48ms..........which is it? I assume the test in the first post of this thread is more reliable?

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Old 03-01-2012, 12:30 PM
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So I've been thinking about this "lag" problem and it's seems ubiquity in projectors in some form. Perhaps some of it is not the ELECTRONICS meaning processing the video data, but rather the response time of the LCD panels themselves. Meaning some sort of slowness of that technology, thus it's not fixable with firmware updates or other externalities.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

So what is the verdict on the Epson 8350 as far as input lag? I noticed on the first page that the test reported an average of ~18ms, but we have on poster in here who is reporting 42-48ms..........which is it? I assume the test in the first post of this thread is more reliable?

It's 18ms.

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Old 03-01-2012, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

It's 18ms.

Thanks Tommy. I figured the other test might have something that was throwing it off since the poster was testing it with either Rock Band or GH (cant remember which) while the test in the first post of this thread is the correct way to measure this. My RS45 is giving me 80ms of lag so 18 should be a noticeable improvement I would think (I would only use the Epson for backup/gaming and keep my 45 for movie duties).

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Old 03-02-2012, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentfox View Post

So I've been thinking about this "lag" problem and it's seems ubiquity in projectors in some form. Perhaps some of it is not the ELECTRONICS meaning processing the video data, but rather the response time of the LCD panels themselves. Meaning some sort of slowness of that technology, thus it's not fixable with firmware updates or other externalities.

Some DLP projectors have bad lag too.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Haha!

But seriously, the way I set it up is that I mounted the 3010 upside down on my ceiling and hanged the PS3 slim from ceiling right next to it (as it does not have any ceiling mount, you see) and the one foot cable nicely takes most of the weight (thanks to the hdmi clamps Epson included the HDMI connector seems to be holding up well too).....you may want keep area under the loosely hanging ps3 free just in case it falls down at some point....I am not too worried though as I put a bucket of water right beneath to cushion the fall....hopefully the power cord severs before it comes crashing to prevent any electirc shock. To get the aesthetics right, i may replace the bucket with an aquarium, i just jope no one notices it in the middle of the room. I probably will invest in an expensive extended warranty to cover this seemingly inevitable event.

I was thinking a good idea would be to use an extension cable.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:24 AM
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HA...

You guys think your lag is bad...

With my 360 connected directly to an LED tv

I worked for mONTHS just to get my video lag under 100ms and finally it's there but my audio lag is a ridiculous 196ms for RB3....


Sorry to hijack your thread but it at least sounds remotely playable on your end with all the numbers I've seen
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:59 AM
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For a couple of years I was happily gaming on my Infocus IN76 DLP 720p projector. Last year it started going south so I got the 8700UB. I have been trying to find my way back to gaming bliss ever since. The 8700UB is amazing in so many ways but all I want to do is game. People who said in this thread that the 8700UB was the best of both the movie and gaming world, I have to strongly disagree. The 8700UB has bad input lag in comparison to decent DLP pj's or even the Epson 8350. The 8700UB also processes the image too much. It doesn't look natural, which I find to be a negative for games as I like a clean picture that looks as the developers intended, and when gaming in long sessions it makes my eyes hurt after a while. I also hate the motion blur.

Recently I decided to try the BenQ W6000. I was really pleased with gaming on the BenQ. What a difference it made. The motion is great and the lag is practically undetectable. I thought I was out of practice with Geometry Wars lately but the first time I played it on the BenQ I blew away any score I have made on the Epson. It was like I was playing it on my IN76 again. Of course, with no possibility for convergence issues, the BenQ also threw a very sharp image which is good for gaming as well. If the W7000 is similar in performance to the W6000 then it should be a great gaming projector with 3D capability. Unfortunately I was not impressed with the black levels. They were good but not the mind blowing black levels of the 8700UB. Ultimately I had to send it back, not because of the black levels, but because the dynamic iris made a low-volume high pitched sound that actually caused discomfort and left my ears ringing after extended viewing. I can't have a projector destroying my hearing just so I can get great input lag. I also found the fans to be on the loud side though that wasn't a terrible nuisance as the IN76 wasn't much quieter when it really got hot. If someone doesn't have the projector as close to them as I do this would be a great solution.

Between this thread, another input lag thread in the $3,000+ forum, and other sites I took a hard look at the Sony offerings. What I read about them makes me think they are my dream unit. They have great black levels, low input lag, great LCoS image, lens shift, etc. Unfortunately it is just a little on the steep end of price for me. I don't think I can justify it.

So I think I'm settling right in between these units and looking at the Panasonic PT-AE7000. Someone had mentioned a projector being the best of both worlds and I think the PT-AE4000 or PT-AE7000 might be the projector they should have been talking about. Numbers I've seen seem to put it at 41ms which, I think, is in the range of acceptable input lag. It also has great black levels... not matching the 8700UB/5010 blacks but being in the range where they are hard to tell apart. It has good zoom, plenty of lens shift, motorized zoom and focus, one of the best implementation of CFI (if you like that sort of thing) which actually adds surprisingly little additional input lag, it has a very natural image, and it uses the Epson 420hz D9 panels. I think the PT-AE7000 has to look like a winner over the Epsons for gamers. I'm about to find out and I will report back when I do.

Here is the other input lag thread btw: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1068844

Here is where I converted the frame delay numbers from projector central which includes the 5010, W7000, and PT-AE7000U: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...068844&page=15

Hopefully reviews will start including figures on input lag because I do think gamers are a growing segment of the home projector market. It would be nice to know what our options really are. It's tough to buy the best rated projector in your price range and find out it is absolutely terrible for the purpose you intend for it.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

To clarify, What I am saying is that when I run HDMI straight from my PC/Xbox to the projector, I get the normal epson lag which is terrible. When I run the HDMI from PC/Xbox Through the onkyo and then output to the projector the lag is decreased. I am still working on borrowing a fast shutter speed camera from someone to do those test. No I am not impressed with the lag from the epson hooked up via a direct link. I have also owned an epson 6100, 8700ub, and a 8350. I am familiar with epson projectors. The 5010 has had the worst input lag of any of those models. I will report back later when I have the camera and some results.

I think the lag is just increased to the reference screen - which I presume is also sent through the receiver.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Tacky View Post

Hello All,

Can someone who's actually using a 9000W (5010e or 6010) please tell the forum what it's actually like to play FPS in the real world on this PJ?
I'll be wanting to play halo, bf3, mw3, mass effect, borderlands, gears in co op with a mate on the couch. ps3 and xbawkz

I just got 6010, and I do definitely feel there is some lag, definitely more than my older 720 pt-ae900u.

Having said that, picture is extreamly good compared to my older pany, in terms of crispness, colors as well as contrast.

I picked up a free CRT monitor from craigslist and will be running some tests later in the week, I will post it to this forum. I am just struggling on how to hook up hdmi and VGA to the same computer, computers at my house that have HDMI don't have VGA and the one with VGA don't have hdmi... argh.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by hkazmi View Post

I picked up a free CRT monitor from craigslist and will be running some tests later in the week, I will post it to this forum.argh.

I was able to run some tests.

6010 Input Lag are consistent with 5010 at 80ms.

I also called Epson support, I didn't get much out of them except that their engineering team is aware of this, all their 3D processors have this issue. They even recommended 9700UB if 3D wasn't important.

I also tested 8700UB at a friends house, it was much better at 20ms input lag.
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Old 03-21-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by hkazmi View Post

I also tested 8700UB at a friends house, it was much better at 20ms input lag.

Strange. That would be VERY GOOD input lag response from the 8700UB. From what I have read, others are pointing to higher lags in the range of 40-80ms or more.

Generally speaking, I believe the higher number reported. Because lower numbers could mean your reference monitor (CRT or otherwise) is already delayed due to any internal processing. Larger numbers would imply that the reference monitor is faster (closer to zero delay), and a true test for lag.

I hope I made sense.

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Old 03-21-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkazmi View Post

I also called Epson support, I didn't get much out of them except that their engineering team is aware of this, all their 3D processors have this issue. They even recommended 9700UB if 3D wasn't important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/mon...of-overdrive/1

As far as I understand this article... the "Overdriven" LCD panels that make time travel... er... fast LCD response times (and therefore 3D) possible are to blame for the high input lag. It looks like NEC might have a solution, though... whatever it is.

The bad news is that this is probably what we can come to expect from 3D LCD Projectors. The good news is that it only really affects gaming. The better news: there's always DLP. The worst news: unless you're as RBE sensitive as me.

sad face

I've posted this before, but it may interest some of you who didn't read the whole thread. It helps explain why the 3D LCD tech is married to high input lag.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

Strange. That would be VERY GOOD input lag response from the 8700UB. From what I have read, others are pointing to higher lags in the range of 40-80ms or more.

Generally speaking, I believe the higher number reported. Because lower numbers could mean your reference monitor (CRT or otherwise) is already delayed due to any internal processing. Larger numbers would imply that the reference monitor is faster (closer to zero delay), and a true test for lag.

I hope I made sense.

I think both of his numbers are off by 20-30ms based on all the other numbers I have seen for the two projectors.
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

I've posted this before, but it may interest some of you who didn't read the whole thread. It helps explain why the 3D LCD tech is married to high input lag.

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that the Panasonic PT-AE7000 and the Epson 5010 use the same LCD panels. If that's the case, and lag is inherent in these panels, I'm curious how Panasonic got around this limitation and came up with relatively fast response times and Epson can't.
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:01 AM
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The LCD panels have very little to do with the actual lag - it's all about the processor controlling them. The same panel in this one 30" HP monitor gets 10ms lag while the same panel in the Dell model gets 25ms. That's 150% more lag on the same panel. Ditto in the projector world. Epson just sucks this year!

[HP ZR30w vs. Dell U3011 in case someone wants to challenge me :-) ]

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Old 03-22-2012, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psg View Post


Fellows, here's what must be going on. Andy's receiver would normally be doing its own video processing, adding to the total input lag.

Thus his description of it being "horrendous".

Setting the Onkyo to "Game Mode" simply removes that additional lag, and he sees just the usual Epson input lag, which by comparison, must look pretty good to him.

Count on it. This is the only explanation that makes any sense.

The onkyo also has a video processor and game mode is just bypassing it or minimizing its use. Game mide may also be disabling the delay between the video and audio signal.
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