Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 330 Old 12-17-2011, 01:56 PM
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Sorry for the change of topics, but could you briefly describe Screen Border Cropping? Is this a feature that will physically mask upper/lower portions of the screen for 2.35:1 content, and eliminate ANY light in those regions? I must be dreaming.

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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Nope, I mean the HW20. Not interested in 3D at this time, and the price difference between the two is steep!

The input lag on the HW20 put a dumb grin on my face. Satisfied doesn't begin to describe it. I can't actually find a single flaw on this projector - low lag, quiet, no overscan, lens shift, no motion blur, manual convergence alignment, bright, manual screen border cropping, great remote, silent iris, deep blacks, blah blah blah.


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post #62 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 05:54 AM
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To the above posters - the lag on the 8700 is nothing like the 8350, it's about twice as slow, 45ms vs 20ms or so.

For the Sony post - the screen cropping - I don't think it's physical, but it's damn dark, totally satisfying. It lets you remove 50 pixels in each direction. That is a total blessing for those with sources that have artifacts and crap like that, but definitely not for 2:35 content or anything like that. I love thoughtful features like that - those who love to tinker would love this thing.

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post #63 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 06:08 AM
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Source?

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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

To the above posters - the lag on the 8700 is nothing like the 8350, it's about twice as slow, 45ms vs 20ms or so.


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post #64 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 03:42 PM
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Well crap, I was set on buying the 8700UB as a replacement for my Sanyo Z2000, but I do not think I can have ~50ms lag. I game FPS too much, so i need as low a lag as possible. on the Sanyo I notice zero lag.

So, I think Im going to have to sacrifice black levels of the UB and go with the cheaper 8350. Bummer.

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post #65 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

Well crap, I was set on buying the 8700UB as a replacement for my Sanyo Z2000, but I do not think I can have ~50ms lag. I game FPS too much, so i need as low a lag as possible. on the Sanyo I notice zero lag.

So, I think Im going to have to sacrifice black levels of the UB and go with the cheaper 8350. Bummer.

projectorreviews.com shows the 6500UB at between 10-30ms with NR and FI turned off. I can't imagine Epson losing ground on the 8700. I'm in the same boat and the 8700 is at the top of my list. If anyone can confirm/contest these numbers, I'd appreciate it...
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post #66 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 08:52 PM
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I just tested my Sanyo Z2000 using the method from http://tft.vanity.dk/

Results i consistently, and exactly, 16ms. That's SIXTEEN MILLISECONDS.

Of course there is no NR or FI, but there you have it. I dont think I could afford anything over 30 ms to be honest. I OCD over twitch gaming LOL.

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post #67 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 08:59 PM
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Anyone try gaming with the 5010e? I'm wondering if the wireless HD would effect the lag. If anyone has actual experience with this model and gaming with wireless HD, please let me know how well it works.
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post #68 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 09:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 311mtb View Post

projectorreviews.com shows the 6500UB at between 10-30ms with NR and FI turned off. I can't imagine Epson losing ground on the 8500. I'm in the same boat and the 8500 is at the top of my list. If anyone can confirm/contest these numbers, I'd appreciate it...

Sadly, newer and more expensive projectors seem to have more input lag than older or less expensive models (more image processing filters etc). Worst are the new Epson 3010/5010 (100/80ms), and the best values I've seem are from the old 8350 (~18ms). The 8500/8700 seems to be in between (~45-75ms). 75ms was through a hdmi switch integrated in a Onkyo receiver. For the new Panasonic ae7000 I've seem values of 30 ms (with the gaming mode on I presume), but I've not got them comfirmed.
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post #69 of 330 Old 12-18-2011, 10:19 PM
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How would the input lag be if you connect through VGA instead of HDMI? If you game on an XBOX 360 you can get a VGA cable that does 1080p.

I suspect that the input lag would be considerably lessened as the VGA input probably isn't put through the same processing as the HDMI inputs would be. There would be little if any difference in image quality. It would be a possible solution for XBOX users. I've used the Microsoft VGA cables for XBOX 360 in the past and the difference going to HDMI was very minimal.


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post #70 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 06:10 AM
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Actually, it's a digital display - meaning any analog signal is, by nature, going to be subjected to more processing (first it does a/d conversion, then likely goes through the exact same processing path). Not that the ADC is likely to add much, but point being it's not going to make it faster. Also, I believe the original poster pointed out that he tested both hdmi and vga input, and found little to no difference.
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post #71 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 06:12 AM
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I assure you that the 8700 has much more lag than the 8350 - they are not based on the same chipset. The 6100/8100/8350 is solely run on the Pixelworks PW390, and the 6500/8700 class is run by the Reon VX - it's all in the product documentation. I've seen numbers between 30-45ms all over the place, which is nowhere near the 16-20ms of the more basic Epson or Sanyo models. If you can handle 30ms+, then more power to you! I can't, that's for sure. As a gamer, you'd have to make the sacrifice, or spend a little more to go a different direction completely (like I did with the Sony).

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post #72 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 06:15 AM
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Thanks Tommy. What Sony did you get, and what are the lag values on that one?

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Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I assure you that the 8700 has much more lag than the 8350 - they are not based on the same chipset. The 6100/8100/8350 is solely run on the Pixelworks PW390, and the 6500/8700 class is run by the Reon VX - it's all in the product documentation. I've seen numbers between 30-45ms all over the place, which is nowhere near the 16-20ms of the more basic Epson or Sanyo models. If you can handle 30ms+, then more power to you! I can't, that's for sure. As a gamer, you'd have to make the sacrifice, or spend a little more to go a different direction completely (like I did with the Sony).


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post #73 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post

Thanks Tommy. What Sony did you get, and what are the lag values on that one?

I got a Sony VPL-HW20 - lag has been previously tested at 10-20ms, exact same stats as the previous HW10 and HW15 model. Feels identical to the older Epsons. It's a 2D projector with no CFI and all options defeatable. It uses the Bravia Engine 2 processor, which is fast, but does not guarantee speed, since it's used on their TVs as well with mixed results (where the actual panel type can be different and required overdrive processing becomes necessary). I had it on a Sony TV a few years ago - I was barely satisfied, but it was faster than almost anything at the time.

Sony source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1068844&page=9

If I'm bored this week I might take some HW20 screenshots, at least against a Macbook over HDMI. It's not ideal, but you'll get the idea. The Macbook display is very basic and very fast, most because the panel is really crappy

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post #74 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 07:12 AM
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I tried with Kinect, your hand wave then you see the screen wave. So I assume this is the lag has been discussed here. I am using TW8000 (5010). How come epson has no game mode to improve the lag. sad.
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post #75 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 08:10 AM
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The Kinect has its own lag, as I'm sure you know. You'll get that on any display, but a slow display makes it even worse.

I'm not sure Epson cares about the input lag at all, and any of their models with great performance (of which there are many) is merely coincidental because of the parts used. They've never touted low lag as a feature, nor ever had a dedicated game mode.

Another poster has said that he contacted Epson support about the issue and they said they were going to update the firmware to fix the input lag - I'll believe that when I see it. It might get better, but it's not going to be anything like their previous entry-level models.

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post #76 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 04:30 PM
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Sony VPL-HW20 aka VPL-VWPRO1. I know it's not adequately scientific because it's against an LCD, but still...

VGA clone on a Dell Latitude E5500, nVidia 160M.


https://skydrive.live.com/redir.aspx...289&parid=root

Sometimes it ties the LCD, and sometimes it's 16ms late. Assuming the LCD is a poor one at 16ms (unlikely, but possible), then this projector has 16-32ms lag, which is excellent.

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post #77 of 330 Old 12-19-2011, 04:35 PM
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tommy thanks for the info. I could see the pics, well taken at high shutter speed, wlel done! Takes some trial and error to get that right. I got 16ms with my Sanyo Z2000, similar to what you have here.

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post #78 of 330 Old 12-20-2011, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

The Kinect has its own lag, as I'm sure you know. You'll get that on any display, but a slow display makes it even worse.

I'm not sure Epson cares about the input lag at all, and any of their models with great performance (of which there are many) is merely coincidental because of the parts used. They've never touted low lag as a feature, nor ever had a dedicated game mode.

Another poster has said that he contacted Epson support about the issue and they said they were going to update the firmware to fix the input lag - I'll believe that when I see it. It might get better, but it's not going to be anything like their previous entry-level models.

Thats is good to hear, as long as they look into the issue then there is still hope for improvement.
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post #79 of 330 Old 12-20-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbad2000 View Post

Thats is good to hear, as long as they look into the issue then there is still hope for improvement.

Wouldn't bet on it! Pretty much the only companies that care about lag in a real way are Sony (you know, with a gaming division and all!) and Sharp, whose "Vyper Drive" system always puts out televisions with the fastest lag against their competitors. They even refer to "lag" on their website as a bullet-point, not just some "game mode" mention.

Ever since Epson put out the 6500UB, they haven't made a point of great input lag for their mid-range and high-end equipment. I pray for their customers that they will do something, because I'm sure they disappointed a whole bunch of them this year. In doing so, they lost my money

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post #80 of 330 Old 12-20-2011, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Wouldn't bet on it! Pretty much the only companies that care about lag in a real way are Sony (you know, with a gaming division and all!) ...

Have you seen any lag numbers for the Sony HW30? I know it has a game mode, but it's not clear to me it actually reduces latency. It may just adjust colors in some way that Sony considers optimal for gaming.

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post #81 of 330 Old 12-20-2011, 01:41 PM
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I don't know where I saw it, but it was the usual 16ms-32ms. Nothing scary from Sony! On mine, none of the options make a difference, which leads me to believe that the processor is more than up to the task, even in machines with more features.

Once again, this is just what I read - I don't own it, nor can I show screenshots. If I could, I would!

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post #82 of 330 Old 12-21-2011, 07:35 AM
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This projector would be perfect for me if it wasn't for the lag problem. I only game about once a week, but when I do I certainly don't need anymore help sucking. I'm hoping by the time it starts to drop in price more, that they've released a firmware fix for it. Just got to keep letting Epson know it matters!
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post #83 of 330 Old 12-21-2011, 09:26 AM
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Same here... lag is the only thing keeping me from buying a 5010. Looking at other options now.

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post #84 of 330 Old 12-22-2011, 12:47 AM
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I need really good lens shift, low input lag and high brightness. The only models I know of with these features are Epson 8350 and Panasonic ae7000.

Other suggestions?
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post #85 of 330 Old 12-22-2011, 05:58 AM
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From my research, and assuming you want to stay in the sub $1,500 range, the Epson 8350 is the best choice for you.

Go to BestBuy, they carry this model and have a 14 day retrurn policy if you dont feel it is the right choice for you.

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I need really good lens shift, low input lag and high brightness. The only models I know of with these features are Epson 8350 and Panasonic ae7000.

Other suggestions?


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post #86 of 330 Old 12-24-2011, 02:09 PM
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Anybody here no where to find lag info on the Mits 7800

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post #87 of 330 Old 12-24-2011, 08:15 PM
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For what it's worth, I just tested my Epson 5010 and the avg. lag was 88ms vs my control unit, an LG 23" LCD monitor. This was with FI disabled, dynamic iris off, and noise reduction off.

Also, I later noticed that the lag is worse after I enable Frame Interpolation, so much so that I didn't even bother to measure it.
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post #88 of 330 Old 12-24-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincentfox View Post

I contacted Epson early on about my 3010 input lag, and was told

"It is working as designed".

The 3010 doesn't even DO the CFI stuff. I'm directly hooked up by HDMI from a PC running it 1080@60Hz. Turned off dynamic iris and noise reduction. AFAICT this should not be a situation where there's additional massaging of the image going on.

So what else could going on in there "by design" leading to this delay?

I feedback to epson singapore, they said the same.

"We apologized that the Epson TW-8000 Projector designed was not intended and does not include game mode functions to boost the speed rate for gaming.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused."
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post #89 of 330 Old 12-25-2011, 12:54 AM
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See, they lost a customer and a sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badbad2000 View Post

I feedback to epson singapore, they said the same.

"We apologized that the Epson TW-8000 Projector designed was not intended and does not include game mode functions to boost the speed rate for gaming.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused."


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post #90 of 330 Old 12-25-2011, 05:17 PM
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Jeez 80ms, this one is out of the picture for me. I want to play video games also and this would not be acceptable. Looks like DLP then.
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