Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 4 - AVS Forum

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Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

LowellG's Avatar LowellG
06:29 PM Liked: 103
post #91 of 330
12-25-2011 | Posts: 1,468
Joined: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makaveli6103 View Post

Jeez 80ms, this one is out of the picture for me. I want to play video games also and this would not be acceptable. Looks like DLP then.

The 7000 is DLP isn't it?
vredg's Avatar vredg
03:08 AM Liked: 10
post #92 of 330
12-29-2011 | Posts: 34
Joined: Jun 2011
I have ordered a Epson 8350. Not because it's cheap (I could have paid more), but because it's the only proj that I know of that has good lens shift (I need ~ 100% vertical L.S because I'm planning to ceiling mount and height is 8.85 feet), low input lag and reasonably high light output.
tommyv2's Avatar tommyv2
07:28 AM Liked: 13
post #93 of 330
12-29-2011 | Posts: 543
Joined: Oct 2007
The Epson 8350 will serve you well for that purpose. The lens shift and input lag are among the best, and it's cheap and has a good warranty. There is nothing better until you spend more than double that.
snoopyman's Avatar snoopyman
12:16 PM Liked: 10
post #94 of 330
12-30-2011 | Posts: 12
Joined: Dec 2011
On the topic of input lag compared to video games, consider street fighter. The game requires the use of 1/2 frame links (moves/attacks). 1 frame = 16ms. So if a projector is delayed by +30ms you can really feel the difference. Ideally, most people can compensate for about 30ms or less. Anything higher and your playing in the past.

On a side note: I had bought a Panny G20 which averages about 20-30ms lag with hardly anything (or anything at all) turned off. I was hoping for the same with panny projectors. So far, my list of least lag projectors include: (Espon 8350 / Sony HW20 / Panny AE400o/ax100/200 / Sanyo Z2000 / ViewSonic Pro8100). Once I figure out which ones are the best, then I'll go through them looking for which ones are better at projecting movies.
vredg's Avatar vredg
02:53 AM Liked: 10
post #95 of 330
12-31-2011 | Posts: 34
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopyman View Post

On the topic of input lag compared to video games, consider street fighter. The game requires the use of 1/2 frame links (moves/attacks). 1 frame = 16ms. So if a projector is delayed by +30ms you can really feel the difference. Ideally, most people can compensate for about 30ms or less. Anything higher and your playing in the past.

On a side note: I had bought a Panny G20 which averages about 20-30ms lag with hardly anything (or anything at all) turned off. I was hoping for the same with panny projectors. So far, my list of least lag projectors include: (Espon 8350 / Sony HW20 / Panny AE400o/ax100/200 / Sanyo Z2000 / ViewSonic Pro8100). Once I figure out which ones are the best, then I'll go through them looking for which ones are better at projecting movies.

I have a Panny ax100 and am playing Rock Band/Guitar Hero a lot (I think those kind of games are among the most lag sensitive of all). Never had any problem with perceived lag and I've never used the audio/video calibration in-game. Nor have any of my friends complained of missing notes due to lag. I've not measured it though. At friend's I've been irritated by lag on their LCD TV's, so I'm not insensitive to lag.

I've now ordered a Epson 8350 though. It should have lag of around 18 ms according to reported measurements. I'll report back when it's installed and I've tried some drumming.
xhonzi's Avatar xhonzi
09:38 AM Liked: 11
post #96 of 330
12-31-2011 | Posts: 915
Joined: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by vredg View Post

I have a Panny ax100 and am playing Rock Band/Guitar Hero a lot (I think those kind of games are among the most lag sensitive of all). Never had any problem with perceived lag and I've never used the audio/video calibration in-game. Nor have any of my friends complained of missing notes due to lag. I've not measured it though. At friend's I've been irritated by lag on their LCD TV's, so I'm not insensitive to lag.

I've now ordered a Epson 8350 though. It should have lag of around 18 ms according to reported measurements. I'll report back when it's installed and I've tried some drumming.

GH/RB is sensitive to lag, but if you are used to it, you can 100% account for it. They tell you the note to play way ahead of time, so all you have to do is play it early/late if you have lag. You get used to it and then it feels totally natural. Then when you play on someone else's system, even if theirs is lag free or properly calibrated, it will fell "off" to you, even though it's more correct.

Other games may seem more forgiving of lag, but since the content they are throwing at you isn't so "telegraphed", it can actually be more impactful. Though you might only suspect that you're not good enough, you're not fast enough, or the game is just sluggish instead of suspecting lag from your display.
bassage's Avatar bassage
02:49 PM Liked: 10
post #97 of 330
12-31-2011 | Posts: 286
Joined: Oct 2002
Anyone know what the typical lag is for an LCD tv? I have been using a 4 year old samsung LCD and it never bothered me. I can't find any info about how much lag my tv has. I am buying a projector soon and I'm not sure how much lag I will be able to stand. If it's comparable to my TV, it won't be a problem for me.
snoopyman's Avatar snoopyman
10:49 PM Liked: 10
post #98 of 330
12-31-2011 | Posts: 12
Joined: Dec 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassage View Post

Anyone know what the typical lag is for an LCD tv? I have been using a 4 year old samsung LCD and it never bothered me. I can't find any info about how much lag my tv has. I am buying a projector soon and I'm not sure how much lag I will be able to stand. If it's comparable to my TV, it won't be a problem for me.

Well, figure out what model you got and head over to here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1131464) and see if you can find your tv.
vredg's Avatar vredg
10:41 AM Liked: 10
post #99 of 330
01-01-2012 | Posts: 34
Joined: Jun 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

GH/RB is sensitive to lag, but if you are used to it, you can 100% account for it. They tell you the note to play way ahead of time, so all you have to do is play it early/late if you have lag. You get used to it and then it feels totally natural. Then when you play on someone else's system, even if theirs is lag free or properly calibrated, it will fell "off" to you, even though it's more correct.

Other games may seem more forgiving of lag, but since the content they are throwing at you isn't so "telegraphed", it can actually be more impactful. Though you might only suspect that you're not good enough, you're not fast enough, or the game is just sluggish instead of suspecting lag from your display.

I've also tried to shut my eyes and play to the music on some easy songs. Worked fine.

But sure, my input is not very scientific; I know that. But I have no CRT monitor to test with.
Tacky's Avatar Tacky
08:33 AM Liked: 10
post #100 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 5
Joined: Jul 2008
Hello All,
Long time reader, seldom poster from Australia

I'm about to purchase an epson 9000W and suddenly I start reading about projector lag.
I game about 10-20% of the time. The plan is for a mount point in the ceiling at ~4.6m to throw a 150in 16:9. it's a decent sized room at 7m x 4m and will be doing nothing but home theatre in total darkness.

Can someone who's actually using a 9000W (5010e or 6010) please tell the forum what it's actually like to play FPS in the real world on this PJ?
I'll be wanting to play halo, bf3, mw3, mass effect, borderlands, gears in co op with a mate on the couch. ps3 and xbawkz

I changed my decision to the epson over the panasonic AE7000 because of the Epson's greater throw and zoom range and greater light output for my big 150in screen.
Now i'm thinking I might have to change my decision back?!
Some real world actual use opinions/thoughts would be useful,
Thank you all!
FendersRule's Avatar FendersRule
09:23 AM Liked: 12
post #101 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 1,699
Joined: Aug 2009
It looks like the 8700UB is still the best projector as far as both gaming and movies are concerned, giving you the best of everythingh. Too much lag in the new projectors. Anyone else think that Epson shot themselves in the foot here?
tommyv2's Avatar tommyv2
09:46 AM Liked: 13
post #102 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 543
Joined: Oct 2007
Really, the 8700UB? It's not so good for lag... sure great for movies, though. In a thread that trumpets the faster and fastest, you talk about your mediocre performer?

Those who primarily game need to make sacrifices. Cheap, fast, deep blacks - pick two!
FendersRule's Avatar FendersRule
11:29 AM Liked: 12
post #103 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 1,699
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Really, the 8700UB? It's not so good for lag... sure great for movies, though. In a thread that trumpets the faster and fastest, you talk about your mediocre performer?

Those who primarily game need to make sacrifices. Cheap, fast, deep blacks - pick two!

It has better latency than the new ones, I think.
Sean Max's Avatar Sean Max
11:44 AM Liked: 19
post #104 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 801
Joined: Jan 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post


Those who primarily game need to make sacrifices. Cheap, fast, deep blacks - pick two!

Show me an expensive fast projector with deep blacks? As the price goes up input lag seems to be more and more of a problem. The Sony HW30 in game mode seems to be the one exception with lag of about 30ms.

Give me a projector with no color wheel, no bulb (LED), no dynamic iris and low input lag and I'll be a happy camper for years to come.
tommyv2's Avatar tommyv2
11:59 AM Liked: 13
post #105 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 543
Joined: Oct 2007
I was referring to the Sony, yes. It is by no means cheap, but it is the fastest "high contrast" projector going. There are projectors that are blacker (Epson, JVC) but they are nowhere near as fast. My experience with the Sony HW20 has been examplary, but it could be a bit blacker - but not without sacrificing speed. I found it to be the best thing for my particular uses - 90% gaming, 10% movies.
bassage's Avatar bassage
12:44 PM Liked: 10
post #106 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 286
Joined: Oct 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Really, the 8700UB? It's not so good for lag... sure great for movies, though. In a thread that trumpets the faster and fastest, you talk about your mediocre performer?

Those who primarily game need to make sacrifices. Cheap, fast, deep blacks - pick two!

What's the lag on the 8700ub? From what I've read, if you turn off NR and CFI, the lag isn't bad at all. I don't have one yet, but this is the projector I will most likely get because it seems to be the only one with the deep blacks I want and decent lag. The 8350 is supposed to be great with lag, but I've seen demos of it compared to the 8700 and the black levels look terrible to me.
FendersRule's Avatar FendersRule
03:42 PM Liked: 12
post #107 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 1,699
Joined: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassage View Post

What's the lag on the 8700ub? From what I've read, if you turn off NR and CFI, the lag isn't bad at all. I don't have one yet, but this is the projector I will most likely get because it seems to be the only one with the deep blacks I want and decent lag. The 8350 is supposed to be great with lag, but I've seen demos of it compared to the 8700 and the black levels look terrible to me.

You'll be fine with the 8700UB. I game on mine all the time. As I've mentioned, it has the best of all worlds, minus the 3D.
Gh4mjteam's Avatar Gh4mjteam
04:32 PM Liked: 10
post #108 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 39
Joined: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacky View Post

Hello All,
Long time reader, seldom poster from Australia

I'm about to purchase an epson 9000W and suddenly I start reading about projector lag.
I game about 10-20% of the time. The plan is for a mount point in the ceiling at ~4.6m to throw a 150in 16:9. it's a decent sized room at 7m x 4m and will be doing nothing but home theatre in total darkness.

Can someone who's actually using a 9000W (5010e or 6010) please tell the forum what it's actually like to play FPS in the real world on this PJ?
I'll be wanting to play halo, bf3, mw3, mass effect, borderlands, gears in co op with a mate on the couch. ps3 and xbawkz

I changed my decision to the epson over the panasonic AE7000 because of the Epson's greater throw and zoom range and greater light output for my big 150in screen.
Now i'm thinking I might have to change my decision back?!
Some real world actual use opinions/thoughts would be useful,
Thank you all!

For the list of games you provided, which are all FPS games for the most part, the 5010/6010 is probably not going to be a good fit. I have seen input lag times between 60-100 ms versus the AE7000 times of between 20-40 ms. What it really comes down to is how much is gaming a priority for you? I know for myself being that I play a lot of FPS games online, any lag time over 20-30 ms is simply unacceptable. Maybe it's the competitive spirit in me trying to give myself every advantage possible or the fact the I'm not willing to spend 3k on a display device that I can in reality only watch movies and tv on. Games are too important to what I use my display for.
311mtb's Avatar 311mtb
08:39 PM Liked: 10
post #109 of 330
01-03-2012 | Posts: 22
Joined: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassage View Post

What's the lag on the 8700ub? From what I've read, if you turn off NR and CFI, the lag isn't bad at all. I don't have one yet, but this is the projector I will most likely get because it seems to be the only one with the deep blacks I want and decent lag. The 8350 is supposed to be great with lag, but I've seen demos of it compared to the 8700 and the black levels look terrible to me.

Just got my 8700 last week and have been playing COD Black Ops quite a bit. The only adjustment I've made out of the box is too put it in eco mode to quiet the fan. I've not noticed any real lag issues. Previously I was playing on a Sony KDFE42A10 (tabletop rear projection). Plays great. I was nervous about lag but am pleasantly surprised. Scientific?...no, but sniping is a lot easier on 110inches
xhonzi's Avatar xhonzi
09:55 PM Liked: 11
post #110 of 330
01-08-2012 | Posts: 915
Joined: Sep 2003
Any low input lag, cheap 1080p, 3D projectors being announced at CES this week?
Russell Burrows's Avatar Russell Burrows
11:38 PM Liked: 10
post #111 of 330
01-09-2012 | Posts: 422
Joined: Oct 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Wouldn't bet on it! Pretty much the only companies that care about lag in a real way are Sony (you know, with a gaming division and all!) and Sharp, whose "Vyper Drive" system always puts out televisions with the fastest lag against their competitors. They even refer to "lag" on their website as a bullet-point, not just some "game mode" mention.

Ever since Epson put out the 6500UB, they haven't made a point of great input lag for their mid-range and high-end equipment. I pray for their customers that they will do something, because I'm sure they disappointed a whole bunch of them this year. In doing so, they lost my money

Do these guys count? Military, DARPA, NSA, DIA, etc.
Being tagged by bullets or motars is never fun and so studies are born on how we process what we see:

http://www.csc.ncsu.edu/faculty/healey/PP/


falafala's Avatar falafala
10:27 AM Liked: 11
post #112 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 981
Joined: Jun 2008
This person claims 3010 lag is solely due to longer than 1 foot cable

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1NNMJ6...tag=&linkCode=
TrickMcKaha's Avatar TrickMcKaha
11:21 AM Liked: 13
post #113 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 1,018
Joined: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by vredg View Post

I have ordered a Epson 8350. Not because it's cheap (I could have paid more), but because it's the only proj that I know of that has good lens shift (I need ~ 100% vertical L.S because I'm planning to ceiling mount and height is 8.85 feet), low input lag and reasonably high light output.

All the projectors that do not have lens shift are designed for ceiling mount.
helcik's Avatar helcik
01:37 PM Liked: 10
post #114 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 92
Joined: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by bassage View Post

What's the lag on the 8700ub? From what I've read, if you turn off NR and CFI, the lag isn't bad at all. I don't have one yet, but this is the projector I will most likely get because it seems to be the only one with the deep blacks I want and decent lag. The 8350 is supposed to be great with lag, but I've seen demos of it compared to the 8700 and the black levels look terrible to me.

I've run 8350 and 8700UB side by side, 8700 was noticeably slower. That was number 2 reason I stayed with 8350. Number 1 was the price difference, number 3 was not that much difference in blacks in my environment. Keep in mind that in certain conditions (ambient light, light ceiling/walls) you won't notice the black level difference.
xhonzi's Avatar xhonzi
01:43 PM Liked: 11
post #115 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 915
Joined: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

This person claims 3010 lag is solely due to longer than 1 foot cable

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1NNMJ6...tag=&linkCode=

I have serious doubts, but I guess someone needs to try it and see what happens. Take some pictures/calibrate some Rock Band or something.

Can you even buy <1ft cables?
studlygoorite's Avatar studlygoorite
01:50 PM Liked: 15
post #116 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 681
Joined: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacky View Post

Hello All,
Long time reader, seldom poster from Australia

I'm about to purchase an epson 9000W and suddenly I start reading about projector lag.
I game about 10-20% of the time. The plan is for a mount point in the ceiling at ~4.6m to throw a 150in 16:9. it's a decent sized room at 7m x 4m and will be doing nothing but home theatre in total darkness.

Can someone who's actually using a 9000W (5010e or 6010) please tell the forum what it's actually like to play FPS in the real world on this PJ?
I'll be wanting to play halo, bf3, mw3, mass effect, borderlands, gears in co op with a mate on the couch. ps3 and xbawkz

I changed my decision to the epson over the panasonic AE7000 because of the Epson's greater throw and zoom range and greater light output for my big 150in screen.
Now i'm thinking I might have to change my decision back?!
Some real world actual use opinions/thoughts would be useful,
Thank you all!

I have the 6010 and play all the First Person Shooters, I can still go 30 and 10 without camping in all the games, if there is this lag it doesn't affect me and beleive me, if I thought the lag was so bad that it was causing me to get killed I would put my Epson 6500 up underneath the 6010 and use it just for gaming.
BrettStah's Avatar BrettStah
01:53 PM Liked: 10
post #117 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 3,311
Joined: Nov 2000
I found one 1 ft. long...

http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...seq=1&format=2
tommyv2's Avatar tommyv2
01:54 PM Liked: 13
post #118 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 543
Joined: Oct 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

I have the 6010 and play all the First Person Shooters, I can still go 30 and 10 without camping in all the games, if there is this lag it doesn't affect me and beleive me, if I thought the lag was so bad that it was causing me to get killed I would put my Epson 6500 up underneath the 6010 and use it just for gaming.

It's a good thing you don't play 2D fighting games, then
xhonzi's Avatar xhonzi
01:56 PM Liked: 11
post #119 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 915
Joined: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by studlygoorite View Post

I have the 6010 and play all the First Person Shooters, I can still go 30 and 10 without camping in all the games, if there is this lag it doesn't affect me and beleive me, if I thought the lag was so bad that it was causing me to get killed I would put my Epson 6500 up underneath the 6010 and use it just for gaming.

Can you do a comparison to a PC monitor or the Rock Band auto-calibrating-guitar test?

All of this subjective experience is nice, but it's not really telling us anything.
MadMyers's Avatar MadMyers
01:59 PM Liked: 33
post #120 of 330
01-11-2012 | Posts: 832
Joined: Sep 2001
Check out this post

The 5010 is 80 ms at least (turning on FI may make it longer).

I am assuming the 6010 behaves exactly as the 5010, which I believe is a safe bet.

... Altan

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