Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 09:57 AM
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There are enough games out there with specific timing events even in singleplayer (reloading in all Gears of War games, for example) or rhythm games that don't support latency correction (perhaps DDR, but my throw distance is too short to play DDR).
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post #212 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Just to skew some imaginary numbers, every single one of my friends knows what input lag is and goes out of their way to buy equipment that is tested and bench-marked for good results. In fact, everything else stops existing. It's definitely not that uncommon - here's an Internet thread about it, and there's been many threads chomping at the bit for results on these Epsons before they were widely available.

Someone cares. Someone's buying other units right now. I'm sure Epson might not care, but they are making less money than they could because they are lazy, and that's the bottom line.

So true, Tommy.

I just got this projector from BB. I think it's fantastic in every way for the price. REALLY want to keep it... but I can't.

I'm far from a hardcore gamer. Play Halo and Fight Night Champ. Mainly offline. Mainly with one other friend. I know FNC is not a lag-reference game. But JEEZ... I hit the button (throw a punch) and I have time to raise both my hands up and clap before the punch is thrown/landed.

This is really too bad. If Epson would have found a way to at least cut the lag in half I would be recommending this pj to everyone. And I have always been one of those people who felt the whole lag issue was overblown, but with this pj it is a major prob.

Also, I ordered a small hdmi cable from monoprice. Despite the divide on this issue I will report my findings when I receive it. But otherwise c'est la vie!
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post #213 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVizio View Post

So true, Tommy.

I just got this projector from BB. I think it's fantastic in every way for the price. REALLY want to keep it... but I can't.

I'm far from a hardcore gamer. Play Halo and Fight Night Champ. Mainly offline. Mainly with one other friend. I know FNC is not a lag-reference game. But JEEZ... I hit the button (throw a punch) and I have time to raise both my hands up and clap before the punch is thrown/landed.

This is really too bad. If Epson would have found a way to at least cut the lag in half I would be recommending this pj to everyone. And I have always been one of those people who felt the whole lag issue was overblown, but with this pj it is a major prob.

Also, I ordered a small hdmi cable from monoprice. Despite the divide on this issue I will report my findings when I receive it. But otherwise c'est la vie!

So what projector are you going to get instead? It is a real damn shame about the Epson.
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post #214 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 12:43 PM
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Spot on my friend...! I agree 100%, this is not just a dismissable issue affecting small percent of the population. me? I am not buying this PJ *specifically* because of the lag. Otherwise, either 3010 or 5010 would have been my choice. Epson needs to get back to the drawing board, as do many other PJ manufacturers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Both of the highest rated reviews for the 3010, the "good" one and the "bad" one, on Amazon mention the lag. It has to be affecting sales to some degree.

http://www.amazon.com/Epson-PowerLit...DateDescending


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post #215 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

Alright, I'm toying with the idea of picking up a 3010 just to test this again. Yes, I am that desperate.

Falafala, can you tell me exactly where you bought exactly which OFSO? I'd hate to do the test and then get told that I used the wrong 1 ft cable.

since you are hell bent on trying this snake oil....here is the hdmi i bought

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i00_details
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post #216 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithj101 View Post

So what projector are you going to get instead? It is a real damn shame about the Epson.

I really don't know at this point. This was actually my first pj. I have a 65" plasma and a 60" lcd/led currently and was curious about how I would take to a pj. And I loved it. The sheer size creates that experience that makes you want to watch your collection of movies all over again. Really, really cool.

All I know now is I def want a pj. I can't do DLP because I unfortunately am badly effected by the RBE. If I gave up 3D I suppose that would open up more options, but that seems kind of stupid.

If I can save up enough dough maybe I'll shoot for that Panny 7000 deal.

Or....

....maybe Epson can issue a firmware/software fix if possible, lol. Doubt it.
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post #217 of 330 Old 01-27-2012, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVizio View Post

I really don't know at this point. This was actually my first pj. I have a 65" plasma and a 60" lcd/led currently and was curious about how I would take to a pj. And I loved it. The sheer size creates that experience that makes you want to watch your collection of movies all over again. Really, really cool.

All I know now is I def want a pj. I can't do DLP because I unfortunately am badly effected by the RBE. If I gave up 3D I suppose that would open up more options, but that seems kind of stupid.

If I can save up enough dough maybe I'll shoot for that Panny 7000 deal.

Or....

....maybe Epson can issue a firmware/software fix if possible, lol. Doubt it.

If you still have the Epson hooked up, could you take some video that shows the Lag. I know it's not scientific but it would be nice to see what it looks like in the real world.
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post #218 of 330 Old 01-28-2012, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithj101 View Post

If you still have the Epson hooked up, could you take some video that shows the Lag. I know it's not scientific but it would be nice to see what it looks like in the real world.

It doesn't look like anything.

It feels like there's a delay between what you do and what you see. It's not a very long delay, so you wouldn't be able to appreciate it in a video. It's just long enough that it affects you, but not quite long enough that everyone will recognize it right away.
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post #219 of 330 Old 01-28-2012, 03:49 PM
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Found this review at bestbuy

------------------------------------

Epson 3010 review on gaming, cable/satillite,3D
4.0
Posted by:*nicemediaroom
from huntsville alon*01/24/2012
Value for Price
2.0
Ease of Use
5.0
Features
4.0
First, I will tell you that I had a few problems with my setup. These are direct question and answers from the Epson Techs.
(Problem 1)
When I first install the 3010 and connected my PS3 the picture would flash on and off every 15 to 30 seconds but it whould not do this while watching a movie.
(Problem 2)
When viewing directv (tv shows or movies)the first 10 to 20 minutes are ok but after that the picture would flash on and off every 15 to 30 seconds.
Also the gaming sucks bad on this projector because of the lag. will it be any updates to fix this?
ANSWERS FROM THE EPSON TECH
Thank you for contacting Epson.
For both issues, as a test, directly connect the PS3 then the DirecTV box to the projector. This will bypass the A/V receiver. More than likely the image from the DirecTV will be ok but the PS3 will still do the issue. This is because the DirecTV signal is 1080i and doesn't require as much bandwidth to display as a full 1080p signal does. When displaying the home screen with the settings, the signal is a full 1080p signal but when the movie plays it is probably a 1080p with 24 fps signal that doesn't require as much bandwidth as a full 1080p signal. This all leads up to being a cable length issue. This can be tested by connecting a shorter cable as a test. We only guarantee the signal will work from source to projector with a 15 ft HDMI cable. In order for you to still use the 40 ft HDMI cable, you will need to purchase an HDMI signal booster. This will amplify the signal across the long run to the projector.
Unfortunately there will be no update to the lag for gaming. The lag is caused by a hardware component and not just the firmware. Some games do have a setting to calibrate the controller to the video being displayed.
If you require further assistance with this particular issue, please ensure all of our previous correspondence is contained in your reply, so we can better track the history of this issue.
If you have a different issue, please submit another E-form via our website (http://www.epson.com), and we will respond in a timely manner. Thank you again for contacting Epson.
Jimmy Z
Customer Support Specialist
Epson America, Inc.
So to fix this problem I i bought a hdmi signal booster and everything has been working great. But for gaming my luck has ran out. Also if you can't find extra espon 3d glass you can use the Panasonic 3rd generation, you will know this by the model number exp.TY-EW3D3SU the 3 before the S means 3rd generation the the S means small. The Panasonic are also rechargeable but the Epson's are not.
this package does come with 2 free pair of 3d glass which is a plus.
Epson 3010 40ft hdmi 1.4b
Pioneer 1021-k (7.1) receiver
Samsung BD-D6500ZA 3D Blu-ray
Directv HD DVR
PS3
XBOX360
Logitech Revue
What's great about it:*3d
What's not so great:*game lag
This product has...
Easy to use remote control Great image quality Easy setup
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post #220 of 330 Old 01-30-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

It doesn't look like anything.

It feels like there's a delay between what you do and what you see. It's not a very long delay, so you wouldn't be able to appreciate it in a video. It's just long enough that it affects you, but not quite long enough that everyone will recognize it right away.

Correct. I don't really have the methods to record and post real-time effects, but the more I thought about it it would be kind of pointless. It wouldn't look drastic on video (if even perceivable), BUT you really feel it.

However, it's not just some subjective thing with me. In my above mentioned example (Fight Night Champion) there's a clear difference when I hit the button to throw a punch and when it is registered on the xbox (compared to my plasma set).

Me no likey that.
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post #221 of 330 Old 01-30-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

Found this review at bestbuy

------------------------------------

Epson 3010 review on gaming, cable/satillite,3D
4.0
Posted by:*nicemediaroom
from huntsville alon*01/24/2012
Value for Price
2.0
Ease of Use
5.0
Features
4.0
First, I will tell you that I had a few problems with my setup. These are direct question and answers from the Epson Techs.
(Problem 1)
When I first install the 3010 and connected my PS3 the picture would flash on and off every 15 to 30 seconds but it whould not do this while watching a movie.
(Problem 2)
When viewing directv (tv shows or movies)the first 10 to 20 minutes are ok but after that the picture would flash on and off every 15 to 30 seconds.
Also the gaming sucks bad on this projector because of the lag. will it be any updates to fix this?
ANSWERS FROM THE EPSON TECH
Thank you for contacting Epson.
For both issues, as a test, directly connect the PS3 then the DirecTV box to the projector. This will bypass the A/V receiver. More than likely the image from the DirecTV will be ok but the PS3 will still do the issue. This is because the DirecTV signal is 1080i and doesn't require as much bandwidth to display as a full 1080p signal does. When displaying the home screen with the settings, the signal is a full 1080p signal but when the movie plays it is probably a 1080p with 24 fps signal that doesn't require as much bandwidth as a full 1080p signal. This all leads up to being a cable length issue. This can be tested by connecting a shorter cable as a test. We only guarantee the signal will work from source to projector with a 15 ft HDMI cable. In order for you to still use the 40 ft HDMI cable, you will need to purchase an HDMI signal booster. This will amplify the signal across the long run to the projector.
Unfortunately there will be no update to the lag for gaming. The lag is caused by a hardware component and not just the firmware. Some games do have a setting to calibrate the controller to the video being displayed.
If you require further assistance with this particular issue, please ensure all of our previous correspondence is contained in your reply, so we can better track the history of this issue.
If you have a different issue, please submit another E-form via our website (http://www.epson.com), and we will respond in a timely manner. Thank you again for contacting Epson.
Jimmy Z
Customer Support Specialist
Epson America, Inc.
So to fix this problem I i bought a hdmi signal booster and everything has been working great. But for gaming my luck has ran out. Also if you can't find extra espon 3d glass you can use the Panasonic 3rd generation, you will know this by the model number exp.TY-EW3D3SU the 3 before the S means 3rd generation the the S means small. The Panasonic are also rechargeable but the Epson's are not.
this package does come with 2 free pair of 3d glass which is a plus.
Epson 3010 40ft hdmi 1.4b
Pioneer 1021-k (7.1) receiver
Samsung BD-D6500ZA 3D Blu-ray
Directv HD DVR
PS3
XBOX360
Logitech Revue
What's great about it:*3d
What's not so great:*game lag
This product has...
Easy to use remote control Great image quality Easy setup



That blows.

Well, I ordered a short HDMI cable just to test the theory (I don't know why), but even if it improves the lag, what's the practicality of that as a "fix"?

Guess it's time to face the music. It hurts, lol.

Oh well, back to the ol' drawing board.
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post #222 of 330 Old 01-31-2012, 10:36 AM
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It's nice to see input lag gaining importance as a factor to consider. Projector Central has posted some numbers for various projectors. In summary, some Panasonic and Mitsubishi models good with low lag; Epson (5010) bad with high lag.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ntry_id=487&em
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post #223 of 330 Old 01-31-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

It's nice to see input lag gaining importance as a factor to consider. Projector Central has posted some numbers for various projectors. In summary, some Panasonic and Mitsubishi models good with low lag; Epson (5010) bad with high lag.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...ntry_id=487&em

Thanks for showing the interest tqn, I'll check out that link.
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post #224 of 330 Old 01-31-2012, 04:58 PM
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Since most measure lag in milliseconds, I converted those numbers:
Panasonic AR100U - 25 ms
Mitsubishi HC7800 - 33 ms
Acer H9500 - 42 ms
Panasonic AE7000 - 42 ms
BenQ W7000 - 50 ms
Epson 5010 - 92 ms
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post #225 of 330 Old 01-31-2012, 11:33 PM
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ambs , are these numbers in 3d or in 2d mode?
Actually, I'm interested by the Acer but I need feedbacks about 3d gaming(mostly FPS like Battlefield 3 )
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post #226 of 330 Old 02-03-2012, 11:00 AM
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You want to see how bad lag is on your pj? play an old school platforming game like Shinobi. I have an epson 8700, and the lag doesn't seem so bad, but I downloaded the original Shinobi on my xbox and tried it out. If you just stand still and throw a ninja star, you'll see a tiny amount of lag, it doesn't seem bad at all. Now, try to actually PLAY the game and you'll notice immediately how bad it is.

Just trying to get precise shots on an enemy that is hiding behind a box seems impossible. This is what usually happens. You hide under the box, then do a quick jump up and shoot at the guy. You miss because the star doesn't get thrown until you hit the ground again, and you end up shooting the box instead of the guy. VERY FRUSTRATING! The more you play, the more it starts feeling like your buttons are sticky or something. In games like this, even a tiny amount of lag can make the game unplayable.
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post #227 of 330 Old 02-07-2012, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

since you are hell bent on trying this snake oil....here is the hdmi i bought

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00_i00_details

Got a potential OFSO in the mail the other day. It's 1.5 feet and really skinny. I understand that 3rd party sellers on Amazon may match the same basic description, without selling the exact same product.

Is this what anyone else got?
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post #228 of 330 Old 02-12-2012, 02:34 PM
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Ok, lets spice this up

Please select the PJ you actually own and the poll will allow you to vote only once, so choose wisely

Spread this thread and lets see which PJ wins

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393704
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post #229 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 07:09 AM
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What does an ownership poll have to do with objective measurement of lag?
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post #230 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 07:22 AM
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falafala
Did you find the short cable cut down on the gaming lag on the 3010.
You suggested "snake oil" and posted to short cable, is it myth or fact.
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post #231 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

What does an ownership poll have to do with objective measurement of lag?

Nothing.....just for fun
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post #232 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

falafala
Did you find the short cable cut down on the gaming lag on the 3010.
You suggested "snake oil" and posted to short cable, is it myth or fact.

I still have it, but I never found any issue with lag in the first place for my style of gaming....the only subjective metric I had was infamous 2 where it seemed to be different. BTW, I tried playing mega man Psn download and I did not find the game unresponsive in the first place, but that's not my cup of tea. I also tried playing on my LCD Samsung ln52a650 which seems to be even more "laggy" !
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post #233 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

I still have it, but I never found any issue with lag in the first place for my style of gaming....the only subjective metric I had was infamous 2 where it seemed to be different. BTW, I tried playing mega man Psn download and I did not find the game unresponsive in the first place, but that's not my cup of tea. I also tried playing on my LCD Samsung ln52a650 which seems to be even more "laggy" !

Well, lag would be only important if you are playing PC,360,PS3 multiplayer games where if you push a button and it doesn't show up immediately, on Modern Warfare 3 or Battlefield 3, YOU ARE DEAD.

Not a concern for you, I take it, but many of us are Gamers too in addition to watching movies, TV shows, we use these projectors to game on. So you can't say yes or no if 1 foot cable works to lower lag, can anyone else , comment on this. Thanks.
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post #234 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

Well, lag would be only important if you are playing PC,360,PS3 multiplayer games where if you push a button and it doesn't show up immediately, on Modern Warfare 3 or Battlefield 3, YOU ARE DEAD.

Not a concern for you, I take it, but many of us are Gamers too in addition to watching movies, TV shows, we use these projectors to game on. So you can't say yes or no if 1 foot cable works to lower lag, can anyone else , comment on this. Thanks.

see one of my earlier posts where I quoted a review from Bestbuy, where apparently Epson admitted that it cannot be fixed by a FW upgarde as its a HW issue. Why are you not looking at the new 3D DLP PJ's if lag is a dealbreaker ?
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post #235 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

see one of my earlier posts where I quoted a review from Bestbuy, where apparently Epson admitted that it cannot be fixed by a FW upgarde as its a HW issue. Why are you not looking at the new 3D DLP PJ's if lag is a dealbreaker ?

Bro, this TREAD is titled INPUT LAG: A scientific experiment and listed 3 epsons and MORE! This thread compares many projectors for lag, not just the 3010. I am interested in getting another projector, was looking at ones that could be 3d too, with good lag and hopefully short throw, optoma lg750 and others. Yea, I did read your other post from best buy review. I was just wondering if short cable would fix it, that is why I asked you earlier today. I want to know my options.
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post #236 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

Bro, this TREAD is titled INPUT LAG: A scientific experiment and listed 3 epsons and MORE! This thread compares many projectors for lag, not just the 3010. I am interested in getting another projector, was looking at ones that could be 3d too, with good lag and hopefully short throw, optoma lg750 and others. Yea, I did read your other post from best buy review. I was just wondering if short cable would fix it, that is why I asked you earlier today. I want to know my options.

xhonzi PM'd me.....he is onto something....i would wait hear his findings
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post #237 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 01:41 PM
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Hi rgtaa

I have tested myself and compared to a test done in the UK about the new Mitsubishi HC7800, its 3D is fantasitic and its lag is just under 2 frames.
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post #238 of 330 Old 02-13-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

xhonzi PM'd me.....he is onto something....i would wait hear his findings

That's probably overstating it. All I know is that the short cord I bought increased lag by 12 ms. I have another short cord coming, but my thought is that if one short cord can increase lag, perhaps another one can decrease it.

It really is a long shot, as you know if you've read this thread. But it's a long shot I'm willing to take a small gamble on.
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post #239 of 330 Old 02-15-2012, 08:43 AM
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Lag measurements seem to vary from time to time for some reason. I would not attribute this to the length of the HDMI cable. I think that if you changed nothing, you would still get some variation in lag measurements, especially if you turned off the projector between sessions and probably if you simply closed and then reopened the program that puts the timer on the screen.
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post #240 of 330 Old 02-15-2012, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickMcKaha View Post

Lag measurements seem to vary from time to time for some reason. I would not attribute this to the length of the HDMI cable. I think that if you changed nothing, you would still get some variation in lag measurements, especially if you turned off the projector between sessions and probably if you simply closed and then reopened the program that puts the timer on the screen.

This is using Rock Band 3, which I think takes a dozen samples or so and then averages them. I get very consistent results from it (within a ms or so) and the 20 tests I've run with other cables are very consistently 108 ms.

I can repeat the result of getting 120 ms every time I plug the short cable in. Again, I don't suppose it's the actual length of the cable, but there's perhaps something there.
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