Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 330 Old 02-15-2012, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

This is using Rock Band 3, which I think takes a dozen samples or so and then averages them. I get very consistent results from it (within a ms or so) and the 20 tests I've run with other cables are very consistently 108 ms.

I can repeat the result of getting 120 ms every time I plug the short cable in. Again, I don't suppose it's the actual length of the cable, but there's perhaps something there.

Yeah...now thats interesting isn't it ? wonder what the science buffs have to say
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post #242 of 330 Old 02-15-2012, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post


This is using Rock Band 3, which I think takes a dozen samples or so and then averages them. I get very consistent results from it (within a ms or so) and the 20 tests I've run with other cables are very consistently 108 ms.

I can repeat the result of getting 120 ms every time I plug the short cable in. Again, I don't suppose it's the actual length of the cable, but there's perhaps something there.

Rock band isn't a way to test input lag. It's taking the lag from your tv AND you. I don't know why people think rock band is a way to test. It isn't. Someone could do the same exact test you do with the same exact equipment and will still get different results from you.
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post #243 of 330 Old 02-15-2012, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Rock band isn't a way to test input lag. It's taking the lag from your tv AND you. I don't know why people think rock band is a way to test. It isn't. Someone could do the same exact test you do with the same exact equipment and will still get different results from you.

Rock Band, not Guitar Hero...

Rock Band has an optical sensor on the guitar, no?

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post #244 of 330 Old 02-16-2012, 07:25 AM
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I just thought I would give my thoughts now that I own the 5010. I purchased my 5010 about a month ago. the lag is definately there. It makes FPS games difficult to play but not unplayable. The picture on blu-ray and 3D content is astounding. I did need to purchase a new reciever that supports 3D and I puchased one of the new onkyo models. This reciever has a game mode in the video presets. I tried this and it greatly reduced the lag. I don't know how this works but it does. If the stock epson has around 100ms lag. It must be reduced to 30-40ms running through the onkyo with game mode turned on. it is even better that running the hdmi stright from my 360 to projector. It is very playable now. I still notice it slightly but, it really doesn't bother me using this method. I know you guys didn't want to hear this but, for those of you needing to upgrade your reciever as well, the epson/onkyo combo greatly reduces the lag. I have no way to scientifically test this but it does work.
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post #245 of 330 Old 02-16-2012, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Rock band isn't a way to test input lag. It's taking the lag from your tv AND you. I don't know why people think rock band is a way to test. It isn't. Someone could do the same exact test you do with the same exact equipment and will still get different results from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Rock Band, not Guitar Hero...

Rock Band has an optical sensor on the guitar, no?

Right. RB2 and RB3 guitars have optical and audio sensor on the face. During auto-calibration, you point the guitar at the screen and it determines the video and audio lags.

I think it is the only truly consistent way to measure lag, since comparing lag to another random display in your home only tells you the delta between the two. At least Rock Band should be widely available (though few in this thread seem to be able to get ready access to it).
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post #246 of 330 Old 02-16-2012, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post


Right. RB2 and RB3 guitars have optical and audio sensor on the face. During auto-calibration, you point the guitar at the screen and it determines the video and audio lags.

I think it is the only truly consistent way to measure lag, since comparing lag to another random display in your home only tells you the delta between the two. At least Rock Band should be widely available (though few in this thread seem to be able to get ready access to it).

Really? I'll have to try it out. Didn't realize there was a sensor like that.

So I suppose if it's accurate it should show different numbers when using game mode and normal movie modes.
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post #247 of 330 Old 02-16-2012, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JukeBox360 View Post

Really? I'll have to try it out. Didn't realize there was a sensor like that.

So I suppose if it's accurate it should show different numbers when using game mode and normal movie modes.

Yep.
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post #248 of 330 Old 02-17-2012, 10:15 AM
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So the monoprice 1 ft cable did consistently provide less lag. 5 ms less lag. Yippee. The cable is just 12 inches (as opposed to the 18" cable from Amazon) and is quite thick with a braided shell. It doesn't bend very well and was hard to use. I'm going to test with it connected to a powered splitter and switch on the 12' run

The other thing I received from monoprice was their $100 2D-3D convertor.
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1339157). So I ran Rock Band 3's auot calibration through the 3D convertor... and suddenly I was getting 99 ms. That's 9 ms faster than without the convertor. This really suprised me, so I kept testing with it. I consistently got 98-99 ms with the convertor in the loop. The convertor creates a SBS video stream and the 3010 auto-detects that and goes into 3D mode. However, you can manually go back to viewing the L+R images side-by-side. I ran the calibration in this mode, expecting it to still be around 99 ms, but it returned to 108 ms.

So one of two things is happening: The 3010 has about 9 ms less lag in 3D mode. Or the alternating left and right images have an odd effect on the auto-calibrating guitar and cause it to read about 9 ms less lag.

I played a bit of RB3 through the convertor and the 99 ms time. It seemed "on" enough to me, but I'm not sure I'd notice 10 ms.

I'll hook up my laptop and run inputlag.exe which should give better results.

One final note: When I had the 3010 before, I only used RB3 but I thought I should compare RB2. I remembered to do it this time, and it does seem there's a big delta between the two games. The 108 ms I consistently get on RB3 showed up as 89 on RB2. And in 3D mode, I got 80 ms on RB2. For what that's worth.
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post #249 of 330 Old 02-17-2012, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xhonzi View Post

So the monoprice 1 ft cable did consistently provide less lag. 5 ms less lag. Yippee. The cable is just 12 inches (as opposed to the 18" cable from Amazon) and is quite thick with a braided shell. It doesn't bend very well and was hard to use. I'm going to test with it connected to a powered splitter and switch on the 12' run

The other thing I received from monoprice was their $100 2D-3D convertor.
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1339157). So I ran Rock Band 3's auot calibration through the 3D convertor... and suddenly I was getting 99 ms. That's 9 ms faster than without the convertor. This really suprised me, so I kept testing with it. I consistently got 98-99 ms with the convertor in the loop. The convertor creates a SBS video stream and the 3010 auto-detects that and goes into 3D mode. However, you can manually go back to viewing the L+R images side-by-side. I ran the calibration in this mode, expecting it to still be around 99 ms, but it returned to 108 ms.

So one of two things is happening: The 3010 has about 9 ms less lag in 3D mode. Or the alternating left and right images have an odd effect on the auto-calibrating guitar and cause it to read about 9 ms less lag.

I played a bit of RB3 through the convertor and the 99 ms time. It seemed "on" enough to me, but I'm not sure I'd notice 10 ms.

I'll hook up my laptop and run inputlag.exe which should give better results.

One final note: When I had the 3010 before, I only used RB3 but I thought I should compare RB2. I remembered to do it this time, and it does seem there's a big delta between the two games. The 108 ms I consistently get on RB3 showed up as 89 on RB2. And in 3D mode, I got 80 ms on RB2. For what that's worth.

this sounds interesting !

I always thought the lag was 60ms from Defianc's measurements and people were upset about it ?

Are you saying the lag is even worse ? but improved with 1ft HDMI ? Can try a longer cable to see if lag gets worse ?
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post #250 of 330 Old 02-17-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by falafala View Post

this sounds interesting !

I always thought the lag was 60ms from Defianc's measurements and people were upset about it ?

Are you saying the lag is even worse ? but improved with 1ft HDMI ? Can try a longer cable to see if lag gets worse ?

Defiance only ever said that the 3010 was 60 ms slower than his other monitor. I ran the same test he did, and mine was 78 ms slower than my laptop. I asked him if he thought he had a slow monitor or if I had a slow 3010. He thought his monitor probably wasn't that fast to begin with.

Given the Rock Band 3 results (108 ms), I was pretty positive that the 3010's lag was ~100 ms. Now that I've compared RB2, I would probably put that estimate at 90ish ms.

The longest cable I've run is 12 ft. As everyone has said, it probably has less to do with length than something like "conductivity/resistance". Of course, everything being equal a short cable with be better at that.

I have a 40 ft cable, but it goes up the walls to my 2nd story and I'm not willing to unrun it to test with. Sorry.
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post #251 of 330 Old 02-22-2012, 07:47 PM
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Anyone have comment or experience with Andyprice comment Onkyo reciever reducing lag. Technically I can't understand how it's possible however I'm in the market for an Epson 5010 and need a receiver, Andy what model specifically did you buy?
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post #252 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 06:08 AM
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Ok, guys. I have played a variety of games using the onkyo/epson combination over the past week. I can happily report that running my pc and xbox games through the onkyo first, and then to the epson somehow reduces 80 percent of the lag. There is still a very slight lag there but, not near as bad as running the hdmi directly to the projector. The onkyo reciever I am using is the TX-NR709. In the menu settings it has a game mode. It states that it repairs the delay between the reciever and display. I don't know how this works, but it does. I have played MW3, Battlefield3 and Skyrim alot over the past few days. Looks absolutly stunning. All games are very playable and I have no issues. This does not fix the problem 100% but, It does reduce the lag to the point where it is not very noticeable. I did read earlier in this thread that the 5010 has a 100ms lag time. I would say using the onkyo/epson combo has reduced this to around 20ms. It isn't great but, it's not bad either. If you are interested in trying this. Buy the reciever from crutchfield. They have free shipping and an awesome return policy if you decide not to keep the reciver. Needless to say, I will not be sending mine back.

Andy
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post #253 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

AVSers

Ok, guys. I have played a variety of games using the onkyo/epson combination over the past week. I can happily report that running my pc and xbox games through the onkyo first, and then to the epson somehow reduces 80 percent of the lag. There is still a very slight lag there but, not near as bad as running the hdmi directly to the projector. The onkyo reciever I am using is the TX-NR709. In the menu settings it has a game mode. It states that it repairs the delay between the reciever and display. I don't know how this works, but it does. I have played MW3, Battlefield3 and Skyrim alot over the past few days. Looks absolutly stunning. All games are very playable and I have no issues. This does not fix the problem 100% but, It does reduce the lag to the point where it is not very noticeable. I did read earlier in this thread that the 5010 has a 100ms lag time. I would say using the onkyo/epson combo has reduced this to around 20ms. It isn't great but, it's not bad either. If you are interested in trying this. Buy the reciever from crutchfield. They have free shipping and an awesome return policy if you decide not to keep the reciver. Needless to say, I will not be sending mine back.

Andy

Since this thread title proposes a scientific approach...do you have any way to measure the lag - using either dual output on computer, or Rock Band guitar? It's great that you're seeing less lag, but it would be nice to be able to quantify that.
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post #254 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

I would say using the onkyo/epson combo has reduced this to around 20ms.
Andy

What on earth are you saying? Take some scientific tests before you make such claims. If you knew what 20ms actually felt like, you wouldn't be saying that.

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post #255 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tqn View Post

Since this thread title proposes a scientific approach...do you have any way to measure the lag - using either dual output on computer, or Rock Band guitar? It's great that you're seeing less lag, but it would be nice to be able to quantify that.

Ditto.
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post #256 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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Plus to add, playing a game like MW3, you will have a very very hard time noticing 20ms lag.

You say it isn't great, but it isn't bad either. I am sorry but 20ms is a fantastic result and would put it in probably around the top 5% of projectors (and amp combo) regarding lag time, if that is indeed the case, but I would like to see proof.
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post #257 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bboy_jonno View Post

Plus to add, playing a game like MW3, you will have a very very hard time noticing 20ms lag.

You say it isn't great, but it isn't bad either. I am sorry but 20ms is a fantastic result and would put it in probably around the top 5% of projectors (and amp combo) regarding lag time, if that is indeed the case, but I would like to see proof.

Don't worry, he has no idea what he's talking about. He adds a component that processes video and claims it decreases input lag...

=Tommy v2=
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post #258 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

AVSers

Ok, guys. I have played a variety of games using the onkyo/epson combination over the past week. I can happily report that running my pc and xbox games through the onkyo first, and then to the epson somehow reduces 80 percent of the lag. There is still a very slight lag there but, not near as bad as running the hdmi directly to the projector. The onkyo reciever I am using is the TX-NR709. In the menu settings it has a game mode. It states that it repairs the delay between the reciever and display. I don't know how this works, but it does. I have played MW3, Battlefield3 and Skyrim alot over the past few days. Looks absolutly stunning. All games are very playable and I have no issues. This does not fix the problem 100% but, It does reduce the lag to the point where it is not very noticeable. I did read earlier in this thread that the 5010 has a 100ms lag time. I would say using the onkyo/epson combo has reduced this to around 20ms. It isn't great but, it's not bad either. If you are interested in trying this. Buy the reciever from crutchfield. They have free shipping and an awesome return policy if you decide not to keep the reciver. Needless to say, I will not be sending mine back.

Andy

This post is wrong in every way possible.

20ms isn't great? Clear sign you have no clue as to what your talking about.

Your also dead wrong about what your receiver is doing. It isn't going to cut ANY time off. It can only INCREASE the time.

Best advice to you. Stick to CRT.
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post #259 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post


Don't worry, he has no idea what he's talking about. He adds a component that processes video and claims it decreases input lag...

Bingo.
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post #260 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 08:18 PM
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You guys say you want a scientific test and then ask that I test it with a rock band 3 guitar???? Hilarious.... All I can say is that it is improved running though the onkyo reciever vs. hdmi stright from xbox/pc to projector. The lag with a xbox to projector is horrendous. Through the onkyo with game mode enabled is very playable. I guess I was off base by saying reduced to 20ms. I stated in my original post I had no way to measure this. I do know the lag is greatly reduced. If someone will inform me of a way to test this I will be glad to do so.

Check out this image
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post #261 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 08:27 PM
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Listen, I know you guys know alot more about this than I do. I get that. I don't know why this is working but, it is better. I agree it makes no sense that if you add something to a signal path that it could help reduce lag in any way. It SHOULD only delay it more but, it doesn't. I don't know how to explain it any better. Someone tell me how to setup a test and I will do it.
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post #262 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:02 PM
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At first I thought he was nuts. But the text below his image reads:

"Repairs the delay in the game console video signal"

Voodoo? No idea, but the ONKYO states that the feature does exactly what he is saying he experiences. Removes the delay. (WTF!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

Listen, I know you guys know alot more about this than I do. I get that. I don't know why this is working but, it is better. I agree it makes no sense that if you add something to a signal path that it could help reduce lag in any way. It SHOULD only delay it more but, it doesn't. I don't know how to explain it any better. Someone tell me how to setup a test and I will do it.


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post #263 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:03 PM
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I eat my words about the rock band guitar. I think my brother has it. I will test it as well. I didn't know it had an optical sensor and auto calibration
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post #264 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:13 PM
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According to the manual of the Onkyo receiver you have, the Game Mode will reduce "video signal delay" but when doing this "the picture quality will become poor." Is "video signal delay" the same as input lag? It sounds like something different.

http://www.manualowl.com/m/Onkyo/TX-...220697?page=55
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post #265 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassage View Post

According to the manual of the Onkyo receiver you have, the Game Mode will reduce "video signal delay" but when doing this "the picture quality will become poor." Is "video signal delay" the same as input lag? It sounds like something different.

http://www.manualowl.com/m/Onkyo/TX-...220697?page=55

I believe it's just another name but is in fact the same thing.

Still don't see how it would work. The tv will process anything you put into it. Which is where the lag comes from.

Regardless of what you put in. It's still going to be processed the same way. (hdmi with hdmi) etc.
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post #266 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:35 PM
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After reading that in the manual, it sort of leads you to believe that after you turn the game mode on the image becomes ****. I have seen no loss in image quality here. Running 1080P PC games looks great. I am using a computer with 2 gtx 580's in SLI. Setting all games to maximum graphics and the projected image and my gaming monitor are almost identical.
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post #267 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

After reading that in the manual, it sort of leads you to believe that after you turn the game mode on the image becomes ****. I have seen no loss in image quality here. Running 1080P PC games looks great. I am using a computer with 2 gtx 580's in SLI. Setting all games to maximum graphics and the projected image and my gaming monitor are almost identical.

Wait, you have the projector connected to a computer that has dual outputs? Then you can take exact lag measurements! Hook up your monitor to one output, and your projector to the other. In scenario 1, you'll connect the projector directly to your comp. In scenario 2, you connect the projector through the Onkyo. Leave the monitor connected directly to the comp at all times.

Set your comp to clone mode. Run the lag program found here:
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229335064

Take a photo (with flash if necessary for fast shutter) with both monitor and projected image visible at the same time. Do this for the two hook-up scenarios (take several photos in each scenario and use the average). The time difference between the two scenarios will give us the info we seek.
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post #268 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

After reading that in the manual, it sort of leads you to believe that after you turn the game mode on the image becomes ****. I have seen no loss in image quality here. Running 1080P PC games looks great. I am using a computer with 2 gtx 580's in SLI. Setting all games to maximum graphics and the projected image and my gaming monitor are almost identical.

Regardless of what the receiver does it should still have the same delay. Your TV will still try to process the image either way.
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post #269 of 330 Old 02-23-2012, 10:01 PM
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I will setup and run the test tqn mentioned after work tomorrow. I will need to find a decent camera from someone. I will come up with one by the end of the work day and try to post my results next evening
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post #270 of 330 Old 02-24-2012, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPrice44 View Post

You guys say you want a scientific test and then ask that I test it with a rock band 3 guitar???? Hilarious.... All I can say is that it is improved running though the onkyo reciever vs. hdmi stright from xbox/pc to projector. The lag with a xbox to projector is horrendous. Through the onkyo with game mode enabled is very playable. I guess I was off base by saying reduced to 20ms. I stated in my original post I had no way to measure this. I do know the lag is greatly reduced. If someone will inform me of a way to test this I will be glad to do so.

Check out this image

Fellows, here's what must be going on. Andy's receiver would normally be doing its own video processing, adding to the total input lag.

Thus his description of it being "horrendous".

Setting the Onkyo to "Game Mode" simply removes that additional lag, and he sees just the usual Epson input lag, which by comparison, must look pretty good to him.

Count on it. This is the only explanation that makes any sense.
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