Input Lag: A Scientific Experiment (Epson 8350, 3010, 5010 & more) - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 330 Old 12-04-2011, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Display lag refers to latency, or lag measured by the difference between the time a signal is input into a display and the time it is shown by the display.

Tired of reading review after review about the projectors coming out this winter without any mention of input lag, I have dragged an old beast of a monitor upstairs to my home theater to conduct some tests.

-A quality CRT monitor was chosen as a control; CRT technology has input lag that is negligible at best. I have seen several photos of laptops and other LCD's lately but you really need to use a CRT monitor as the control, otherwise, you're just measuring how much slower a projector is compared to your already laggy LCD monitor (which is great, but doesn't really help us compare results unless you test every projector on the market for us using the same monitor).
-You also need to set your camera to a fast shutter speed! Otherwise the numbers will blur and you cant see the exact timestamp.
-Finally, anything that can cause lag must be disabled. Any scaling, correction, keystone, if you can see it on in the menu- disable it. If the projector has a game mode you can enable this and compare it to normal mode, it usually shaves off a decent amount.

(instructions on how to preform the test can be found here: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.ph...&id=1229335064)

I will start by comparing Epsons two latest projectors the 3010 and the 5010 along with the 8350 from last year which has been great to me during the past 12 months.

-----------
Epson 8350 - Average 18.5ms lag:
Test 1 -- CRT 00:34:861 /\\ PJ 00:34:841 = 20ms lag
Test 2 -- CRT 02:42:872 /\\ PJ 02:42:842 = 30ms lag
Test 3 -- CRT 02:49:142 /\\ PJ 02:49:122 = 20ms lag
Test 4 -- CRT 02:55:102 /\\ PJ 02:55:092 = 10ms lag
Test 5 -- CRT 03:00:302 /\\ PJ 03:00:292 = 10ms lag
Test 6 -- CRT 03:05:342 /\\ PJ 03:05:322 = 20ms lag
Test 7 -- CRT 03:20:122 /\\ PJ 03:20:102 = 20ms lag

Link to photos


-----------
Epson 3010 - Constant 100ms lag:
Test 1 -- CRT 01:50:561 /\\ PJ 01:50:461 = 100ms lag
Test 2 -- CRT 01:57:911 /\\ PJ 01:57:811 = 100ms lag
Test 3 -- CRT 02:03:581 /\\ PJ 02:03:681 = 100ms lag
Test 4 -- CRT 02:06:881 /\\ PJ 02:06:781 = 100ms lag
Test 5 -- CRT 02:10:980 /\\ PJ 02:10:880 = 100ms lag
Test 6 -- CRT 02:15:881 /\\ PJ 02:15:781 = 100ms lag
Test 7 -- CRT 02:20:971 /\\ PJ 02:20:871 = 100ms lag

Link to photos


-----------
Epson 5010 - Average 81.4ms lag:
Test 1 -- CRT 01:42:260 /\\ PJ 01:42:180 = 80ms lag
Test 2 -- CRT 02:28:720 /\\ PJ 02:28:640 = 80ms lag
Test 3 -- CRT 07:33:314 /\\ PJ 07:33:234 = 80ms lag
Test 4 -- CRT 07:46:933 /\\ PJ 07:46:843 = 90ms lag
Test 5 -- CRT 07:55:844 /\\ PJ 07:55:764 = 80ms lag
Test 6 -- CRT 08:09:954 /\\ PJ 08:09:874 = 80ms lag
Test 7 -- CRT 08:13:304 /\\ PJ 08:13:224 = 80ms lag

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post #2 of 330 Old 12-04-2011, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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space reserved
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post #3 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 04:02 PM
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Awesome work. Drooling for 5010 info.
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post #4 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated with 5010 information. Quite disappointing eh? Tried a few games and you can definitely feel it (even when moving the mouse @ the desktop). After coming from a lowly 8350 to a $3000 MSRP projector its a night and day difference. Black levels look amazing, lag is terrible. A couple PS3 titles feel okay, but anything requiring timing (especially battlefield 3 on the PC and street fighter on the PS3) was a no go for me.

At least they shaved off few ms for $1500 difference, but not enough. My guess is its all the 3D hardware / 480hz panels. I made sure to turn off all 3D settings of course and anything else that might have adverse effect. Tests were taken with everything on too (several combinations, just to make sure I didnt leave anything out) and there wasnt much of a difference in lag at all.
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post #5 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 04:56 PM
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Thanks for the info!

I realize you mentioned that stuff that contributes to lag must be disabled. However, I'd like to specifically verify you disabled CFI. Please comment...

Great info!

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post #6 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 05:32 PM
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hopefully you have access to the panasonic 7000....
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post #7 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 05:46 PM
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That's great work! Unfortunately that's two more projectors I can cross off of my list.

"Experience is the one thing you can't get for nothing." - Oscar Wilde
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post #8 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 05:47 PM
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Cringe....

and thats the nail in the coffin.

Gamers are where the money is at. They just lost a big customer base.

I was contemplating the 5010 after the horrendous lag reviews from the 3010. looks like I'll be going with benq w7000 when it comes out, since this is terrible lag. Maybe the Mits 7800, but definately not considering the above ones anymore.

And this is why they leave this input out of the other reviews, so they don't scare you off.
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post #9 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 06:03 PM
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Anyone know anything about the lag in the Panasonic Ae4000 or the Epson 8700ub?
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post #10 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMyers View Post

I realize you mentioned that stuff that contributes to lag must be disabled. However, I'd like to specifically verify you disabled CFI. Please comment...

Its just called "Frame Interpolation" in the options menu and yes of course it was off I actually tried a few times with it set to high and the lag was laughably bad, ive never seen so much lag in my entire life with than when that baby was set to high. They actually have a button on the remote for it.

I really want to fall in love with this projector like I did the 8350. The colors blow the 8350 out of the water, as do the blacks. I start to try to talk myself into the lag, come on you can adapt to it, you'll be watching movies half the time anyway so it woulnt matter that much. But when it comes down to it this device isnt pocket change (for most) its about $3000 after you buy a couple pairs of 3D glasses, and to me when you're spending that kind of money you cant just "settle". I could settle for a $150 lamp my wife picked out, not this.
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post #11 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 07:27 PM
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Are you planning on giving the Panasonic 7000 a try? Doesn't it have a game mode?
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post #12 of 330 Old 12-05-2011, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vullcan View Post

Its just called "Frame Interpolation" in the options menu and yes of course it was off I actually tried a few times with it set to high and the lag was laughably bad, ive never seen so much lag in my entire life with than when that baby was set to high. They actually have a button on the remote for it.

I really want to fall in love with this projector like I did the 8350. The colors blow the 8350 out of the water, as do the blacks. I start to try to talk myself into the lag, come on you can adapt to it, you'll be watching movies half the time anyway so it woulnt matter that much. But when it comes down to it this device isnt pocket change (for most) its about $3000 after you buy a couple pairs of 3D glasses, and to me when you're spending that kind of money you cant just "settle". I could settle for a $150 lamp my wife picked out, not this.

You just have to pick your poison because there are no perfect projectors.

You want awesome black levels, get the JVC but 3D is not that great as well latency.
Want decent black level in 2D and decent 3D projection, get the 5010 but then it has moderate latency.
Want fast panel response, get a DLP but you sacrifice some black level and may have to deal with fan noise. And may be even a flicker of RBE.

I personally wanted the JVC but the 3D issues and possible foreseeable bulb issues detered me.

Good luck on your search.

2014
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post #13 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 05:29 AM
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As a previous Epson 6100/8100/8350 owner, those new Epson results crush me.
I've been waiting to see the results on the 5010 - as I suspected, it's out for me. Sony VPL-HW20, here I come! The HW10 and HW15 were both amazing performers (10ms or so) and they didn't change the system until the HW30, so presumably the HW20 is what I need.

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post #14 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 06:10 AM
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Try turning OFF the dynamic iris.

The algorithm may need to look several frames ahead to determine how to best use the iris.

This is a huge flaw imho if it can't be fixed.

It could be the final nail in the coffin to push me towards the panny 7000.

Speaker design is rather an art. There is no such thing as the perfect painting. Likewise there is no such thing as a perfect speaker. It's part science and part personal preference.
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post #15 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 06:27 AM
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looks like stick with great 2d projector and get a cheaper 3d dlp projector then for games/movies :-/

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post #16 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalGriffin View Post

Try turning OFF the dynamic iris.
This is a huge flaw imho if it can't be fixed.
It could be the final nail in the coffin to push me towards the panny 7000.

I turned off everything for the photos you see. I tried varying combinations of options as well on my own for fun, but those are not in the photos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threefiddie View Post

looks like stick with great 2d projector and get a cheaper 3d dlp projector then for games/movies :-/

The problem with buying this as a 2D projector only is you can get the RS45 for the same price which from what ive seen looks like a slightly better image and better blacks

If you need epsons throw / lens shift or want better 3D then this is the clear answer, but for most enthusiasts on here who can place a projector in the right spot and think 3D is fun but not the main attraction then the epson doesn’t really bring much to the table other than bulb life and great warranty support
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post #17 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

As a previous Epson 6100/8100/8350 owner, those new Epson results crush me.
I've been waiting to see the results on the 5010 - as I suspected, it's out for me. Sony VPL-HW20, here I come! The HW10 and HW15 were both amazing performers (10ms or so) and they didn't change the system until the HW30, so presumably the HW20 is what I need.

Why do you assume it's worse? I've heard the lag is very respectable on the hw-30. It's not like they changed the processing that much, it's still a Sony (they have their own processing, right?). Epson changed video processor companies between their projectors.
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post #18 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 09:25 AM
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I don't assume that the HW30 has any issues at all, it's just totally different than the HW20 with all-new 3D components. The HW30 is a lot more money.

That being said, all Sony projectors based on the Bravia Engine 2 have been amazingly fast. I bought my HW20 today for a crazy low price; low enough to forget Epson entirely. I don't want the 3D stuff yet, that's for the next purchase in the future. I know I'm going to be happy with this for now.

I gave Epson my time and money over the years - and this year, they've really dropped the ball. Going from 20ms to 100ms on the entry-level model - gimme a break.

Side note: vullcan, THANK YOU FOR THIS THREAD! It couldn't possibly be any more useful. I hope Epson's reading this!

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post #19 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 11:43 AM
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Thanks again for this effort.

I do a ton of gaming and am in the market for a new PJ; was going to try 3010 because its in my price range.

However that lag in unnaceptable; I play Modern Warfare 3 a lot and lag is very very important. Looks like its the 8350 for me until 3D PJ's address the lag issue.
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post #20 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 11:59 AM
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This is a huge disappointment. It will probably mean that I won't buy the projector. However, I'm curious if anyone has talked to Epson about this yet - its really surprising that the 2D lag would be so bad. Any owners voiced their opinion to Epson about this yet?

I really, really wanted to like this projector.
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post #21 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 12:02 PM
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anyone know the lag from the 8500Ub?
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post #22 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 12:16 PM
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I am actually am more surprised how little input lag that the 8350 has. Most people report the LCD projectors north of what I see of the 3010. From what you report, the 8350 is the range of DLP projectors.
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post #23 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 12:17 PM
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i have 8500ub. it's similar to 8350. no where near noticable at all

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post #24 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 12:56 PM
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I haven't tried any gaming with larger latency projectors (I don't have one with long latency), but I'm wondering whether even 80ms is a problem or how much of a problem.

With all caveats about Wikipedia, the article

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry

Indicates that the typical college-age individual has a reaction time of 190 ms to visual stimulus.

Obviously if the displayed image is delayed by 80ms (for example), the 190 ms to recognize it moves us to 270ms from when the source device (e.g., xbox) generated it. That is 1.4 times longer (270/190).

Looking at it that way, I can see this additional latency effecting certain games but not others.

However, I question whether this average time to recognize visual stimulus applies to gamers. If we cut this in half (190ms to 95ms) for gamers, an additional 80ms added by the display is getting pretty close to increasing reaction time by 2x. That's pretty significant.

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post #25 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 01:26 PM
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Excuse me for butting in...

Input lag is not just about reaction and how the human brain works, but PRO-action. It's when to press something to MAKE something happen, not just REACT to it. 2D games - jumping on/off platforms, fighting games - all active things, and you can't get used to having that lag.

There's no way to sugar-coat it - input lag is terrible and there are enough choices where we don't have to really deal with it.

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post #26 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 01:45 PM
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had the Epson its no good at all. How can you sell a pj that only works for movies, you cant use it with games. If you game stay away from EPSONs new stuff I had 8350 amazing pj perfect, I now have a panny 7000 and 30ms input lag not 100
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post #27 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

There's no way to sugar-coat it - input lag is terrible and there are enough choices where we don't have to really deal with it.

Yep thats right.

I find that reaction based games are still playable, but it's becoming a chore to compensate mentally for the lag induced by the display. Gaming is about having fun and compensating for lag isn't fun. When you're playing an online game competitively against other players it becomes even less fun because it gives you a handicap.
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post #28 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 02:25 PM
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I used to run game servers, you can tell a huge difference even ~15ms, there is so much other things that are affected by it.

On MWF 3 its actually easy to determine lag, since when you get killed you see your death from the other viewers persective. In this instance, you see yourself walk in visible range and he shoots you, and you remember just seeing him and your dead.. Its little things like this that will drive you crazy.

It's completely depressing that lag is now the determining factor for many for purchasing these projectors that have better picture and are current. I could possibly deal with no lense shift, but the lag is a game stopper...

So from my research the 8350 is still the gaming king for projectors.
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post #29 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 02:35 PM
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Why waste your time with MOVIE projectors.

Get one of these and call it a day.
http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...dg_gglsrch:pla

2014
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post #30 of 330 Old 12-06-2011, 02:55 PM
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I contacted Epson early on about my 3010 input lag, and was told

"It is working as designed".

The 3010 doesn't even DO the CFI stuff. I'm directly hooked up by HDMI from a PC running it 1080@60Hz. Turned off dynamic iris and noise reduction. AFAICT this should not be a situation where there's additional massaging of the image going on.

So what else could going on in there "by design" leading to this delay?
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