Why is motion smoother on my old 720p projector? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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After getting much enjoyable use out of my trusty old Yamaha LPX-500 LCD projector, I finally decided to make the jump into the 21st century with a new projector. I first had an Epson 8350 in my home, followed by an LG CF181D, which I am currently evaluating in my home theatre.

While the image quality on both of these projectors is fantastic, I have real issues with how both of these projectors handle motion and pans. Doing a bunch of research and digging into technical discussions revolving around refresh rates, pulldown schemes, pixel response patterns and the various methods used by current projector technologies to effectively convey motion, it leaves me with at best an ambiguous understanding of things. What does seem evident is that I am dealing with the issue of judder - that choppy jumping motion of objects in motion and during pans. This is especially evident in medium speed motion. My old projector certainly had issues with motion blur, but it was MUCH more pleasantly conveyed. It was more of a gentle, relatively smooth and natural blurring. From my reading, it would seem that the new projectors with their 120hz refresh rate should only improve on this, but it seems to be quite the opposite. Motion is basically rendered on both of these projectors in a choppy, shaking almost strobe like quality. Frame interpolation, of course, smooths this out, but this is not an effect that I like.

It may simply boil down to the fact that the higher resolution projectors are simply showing more and vividly displaying those frame gaps rather than just blurring things together? Perhaps the implementation of new techologies is responsible for this?

I guess I'm looking for some insights or advice on this. Bottom line is that, while the image quality of the new projectors is great, the manner in which they handle motion is IMHO not so great. If I could get that 1080p image quality with the old 720p projector's rendering of motion that would be awesome.
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post #2 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 01:10 PM
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Got a particular scene from a particular title? We get these posts, and I think most of us are just not prone to seeing the judder at the level you are.

I just have no issues with the motion most modern projectors convey at all in pans.
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post #3 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 01:36 PM
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Having recently moved from an optoma HD70 to a Mits HC4000, I have a similar feeling and posted to the HC4000 forum a few weeks back.

I have been looking for some form of test animation that could be used to prove or otherwise that the projector is just being more clinical. Not found one yet.

The motion is by far the single most irritating thing about my move to 1080p. I just want it to be perfect :-)

John
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post #4 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 02:17 PM
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You older projector was DLP. His was also LCD, so no real direction to go for an explanation in his case.

But I have a friend that seems highly bothered by motion. He gripes about it on his AE4000. I gripe about his setup because he runs his interpolation to high.
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post #5 of 19 Old 01-16-2012, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

You older projector was DLP. His was also LCD, so no real direction to go for an explanation in his case.

But I have a friend that seems highly bothered by motion. He gripes about it on his AE4000. I gripe about his setup because he runs his interpolation to high.

My Yamaha projector is actually an LCD unit. As such, it does have motion blurring issues but the way it displays motion is simply that - a motion blur, rather than the stuttering, choppy judder that I see on both of the 1080p projectors.

I realize that I may be simply more sensitive to this issue, but it is really hard to get past, and a little frustrating to think that my old projector handles motion in a more natural fashion. I know interpolation is a solution, but the look of this is something I find quite objectionable and not really natural. That being said, a very small touch of FI could be just enough and I've wondered if I need to seek out a projector with the best implementation of the technology...preferably with a wide degree of settings. The LG projector just has a low and a high setting. It would be nice to dial it in from 1 to 10.
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post #6 of 19 Old 01-17-2012, 07:10 AM
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What are you playing, DVD's, Blu-ray's, Cable? Better question are you sending 480, 720 or 1080 image? If sending a 1080 signal I would think the DLP LG would handle motion better then the Epson 8350. If sending a lower then 1080 signal that could be showing the problems of conversion to fill 1080. Hence why some buy Oppo players for upconversion or sweat the video conversion's in recievers. Some are better then other's.
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post #7 of 19 Old 01-18-2012, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by man4mopar View Post

What are you playing, DVD's, Blu-ray's, Cable? Better question are you sending 480, 720 or 1080 image? If sending a 1080 signal I would think the DLP LG would handle motion better then the Epson 8350. If sending a lower then 1080 signal that could be showing the problems of conversion to fill 1080. Hence why some buy Oppo players for upconversion or sweat the video conversion's in recievers. Some are better then other's.

So far I have only been playing Blu Ray discs and was sticking with 1080 - and jumping between 1080p24, 1080p, 1080i just for experimentation. I have not tried playing a DVD yet, and will def. make a point of doing this. The upsampling in my Marantz BD8002 is pretty good, so I will stick with using it's upscaling and sending a 1080 signal to the projector to fit it's native display resolution. Overall, the LG is definitely providing a better picture and better motion than the 8350, although the motion is not better by what I would call a huge margin.

Interestingly enough, I was watching a Blu Ray of an older film, Blue Velvet, and the motion w/ 1080p24 engaged was displayed in a nicer fashion than a couple of recent releases that I had been watching. I can probably live with it and just accept that the implementation of modern technologies in the field is such that this is just "how it is". I have been considering trying out a Panasonic AE4000 for a final comparison. The Smooth Screen technology, along with what is reported to be one of the better FI implementations would probably be worth comparing. The folks at Projector People are willing to let me go with one more projector demo, and I may take advantage of this offer. I pretty much hate FI, but am willing to accept that it is something I might get used to (or at least just accept) if only a tiny bit of it is dialed in. I think the Panny offers a little more control over the FI settings in their projector.
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post #8 of 19 Old 01-18-2012, 09:40 AM
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Panny FI is seemless. Aside from some QC issues? I think their FI and the way it maintains black levels as it closes down is the best in the industry. Never jerky or noisy.
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post #9 of 19 Old 01-18-2012, 11:12 AM
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Finally, I am not alone...I thought maybe I was just expecting too much out of the "upgrade" to 1080. I was happy with my 720p picture, motion, and even blacks. Now I am going on my 3rd and possibly 4th 1080pj, and can't find the sweet spot to satisfy my eye.
My 8350 motion was unacceptable, then my first HC4000 blew a bulb in the first 5 minutes, and the replacement doesn't seem very sharp. Also the upscaling seems worse than my 720p and I am still thinking my old PJ handled motion better. The HDNET Visions of xxxx are prime examples as they are constantly panning from the helicopter.
I don't know what I will do next. I think I may try FI but am worried that I won't like it since I generally dislike the soap opra effect.
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post #10 of 19 Old 01-18-2012, 11:46 AM
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I recently picked up an LG181D and the motion judder was the first thing I noticed.

I have calibrated the color and it is fine, brightness is why I bought it, but the image judder is bad. I believe part of the problem is the generic Windows driver which does not have all the timings supported by the projector.

I am trying a DVDO iScan DUO this weekend to see if it takes care of the judder. Admittedly that is a long way to go to handle the problem. My first generation RS1 has no hint of judder. If I didn't need the brightness for a new location for my PJ I would have stuck withe the RS1.

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post #11 of 19 Old 01-19-2012, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Panny FI is seemless. Aside from some QC issues? I think their FI and the way it maintains black levels as it closes down is the best in the industry. Never jerky or noisy.

I totally agree. My newly aquired AE4000 has no motion judder with blu ray or DVD, and produces about the best PQ I have yet seen from a projector - just jaw dropping! Maybe the smoothscreen helps reduce motion judder. A great projector in every way, I strongly recommend you take a hard look at the AE4000 before they disappear from the shelves.
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post #12 of 19 Old 01-19-2012, 08:43 AM
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be warned though. My brother-in0law as to use Motionflow or whatever it is called on his AE4000u or he gripes about the same thing with it.

When I go over there, I gripe about the Motionflow.

You can't win.
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post #13 of 19 Old 01-20-2012, 05:31 PM
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Opening scene when panning across bushes. Notice motion judder with panning bushes.
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post #14 of 19 Old 01-20-2012, 05:32 PM
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Oh, i have 8350
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post #15 of 19 Old 01-21-2012, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffman View Post

I totally agree. My newly aquired AE4000 has no motion judder with blu ray or DVD, and produces about the best PQ I have yet seen from a projector - just jaw dropping! Maybe the smoothscreen helps reduce motion judder. A great projector in every way, I strongly recommend you take a hard look at the AE4000 before they disappear from the shelves.

Beg to disagree.
Compared with other projectors, example Mitsubishi 4000, the AE4000 DO suffer from motion issues.
Both with/without activated FI.

I consider Mitsubishi's and Sony's models among the better in this regard.
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post #16 of 19 Old 01-22-2012, 10:04 AM
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Well, this is a disappointing read. I just got the LG as an upgrade from the Panny 900AE and noticed the judder pretty quickly. Noticed mainly when watching something on my computer, so I figured I could go to an HDMI out on the computer and clear it up. Have a new video card coming. But have been noticing the problem on regular tv as well. Even mundane programs like Modern Family.
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post #17 of 19 Old 01-23-2012, 04:11 AM
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You can do some tests.

Play both video tests and look how much of Dynamic Resolution it has.

Link: Test 1.mp4


Link: Test 2.mp4


Look and tell us what resolution the projector begins to mess the lines.


Thank you,
Peter.
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post #18 of 19 Old 01-23-2012, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kawie01 View Post

Opening scene when panning across bushes. Notice motion judder with panning bushes.


Thanks, I missed this post. I can check that one out easy enough on my Lowly Panny 1080p projector. We did screen it and nothing jumped out at us, had pretty many people in attendance too.
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post #19 of 19 Old 01-24-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kvrdave View Post

Well, this is a disappointing read. I just got the LG as an upgrade from the Panny 900AE and noticed the judder pretty quickly. Noticed mainly when watching something on my computer, so I figured I could go to an HDMI out on the computer and clear it up. Have a new video card coming. But have been noticing the problem on regular tv as well. Even mundane programs like Modern Family.

Yeah, I was thinking about trying an AE4000 to compare, but will probably just stick with the LG. It is a very nice projector and, IMHO, superior to the 8350 that I ended up returning, but the judder is a pretty serious problem. It seems that this is something that most, if not all, current projectors will suffer from. I don't know if it is simply the higher resolution exaggerating a problem that has always been there or if it is a byproduct of the development path with current projector technology. Maybe developers have noted the issue but focused their efforts elsewhere, assuming that users can just use FI to deal with it if they have a problem with the judder. I have been reading about projectors with 'black frame insertion' technology and am pretty curious about this.

I went to see a band at a local artspace awhile back and they had a 16mm film projector running projections behind them. One of the reels was a really cool obscure vintage '70s animated film and the other reel they used was some oddball '70s movie. This is the first time I had actually watched film in a long time and, say what you want about it's limitations, but I spent much of the evening staring at the projections and watching an image with absolutely ZERO judder and motion blur. All of the city street and landscape pans in the film were totally smooth, with no blur or smearing whatsoever. Well, I guess you could say there was some blur with fast moving objects as these will, of course, naturally blur as they move by. The big difference here though is that if one fixed their eyes on an object - say a car or a street sign moving by - and followed it's path you could snap it into focus as you follow it with your eyes along the screen....just like it is in real life I might add. The animation film highlighted this even more, with lots of fast panning motion, all of which was perfectly smooth and judder free. I'm not on a 'back to analog' kick of any sort, but it was kind of refreshing to see this.
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