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post #31 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Nope, but others have compared them, I'd say it's split. I however have had many projectors here with DC 3 (even the Mits hc4000 has DC 3, but a lesser DMD size).

From my reading in this forum, I have seen several people compare the JVC to higher end DLP's like the Samsung a900b or Runcos/Planars. Let's say comparing with a Planar vs. the JVC, I'd say at least half preferred the JVC and the other half preferred the DLP. The thing is though, most of these .95" ones are FAR FAR more expensive than the RS-45, so it's not even really a fair comparison. I think it really depends on a user's viewing habits. The DLP has better motion, but I don't think the added sharpness is going to help anymore, the RS-45 is really freaking sharp, I'd say there are only a handful of DLP's under $3000 sharper than the RS-45, the Benq w6000/w1200/w1100, and the Mits hc4000 is a TINY bit sharper, but the Mits isn't as uniform for sharpness across the screen as the JVC is. I haven't seen a single LCD projector be sharper than the JVC RS-45, the older Viewsonic Pro8100 LCD and Mits hc6800 were MAYBE as sharp, maybe, but probably not, I think the RS-45 is sharper even then those when you evaluate it from seating distance. The biggest difference between a JVC and any DLP is going to be motion and ability to handle a poorer signal for TV, DLP's are better at that than LCOS or LCD.

If you play any dark movie (Harry Potter or anything like that), there is just no DLP that is going to have a chance against the JVC once the projector is properly calibrated.

My RS-45 has just incredibly superb sharpness for a NON-DLP from seating distance, text looks very DLP-like. Let me put it this way, even for HTPC text, the JVC is the sharpest projector I've owned other than the Mits hc4000 (and I wouldn't say on text the difference is even noticeable). JVC has figured out how to make some really sharp projectors even with LCOS technology.



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post #32 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Nope, but others have compared them, I'd say it's split. I however have had many projectors here with DC 3 (even the Mits hc4000 has DC 3, but a lesser DMD size).

From my reading in this forum, I have seen several people compare the JVC though. Let's say comparing with a Planar vs. the JVC, I'd say at least half preferred the JVC and the other half preferred the DLP.

I think it really depends on a user's viewing habits. The DLP has better motion, smoother looking, but I don't think the added sharpness is going to help anymore, the RS-45 is really freaking sharp, I'd say there are only a handful of DLP's under $3000 sharper than the RS-45, the Benq w6000/w1200/w1100, and the Mits hc4000 is a TINY bit sharper, but the Mits isn't as uniform for sharpness across the screen as the JVC is.

Let me put it this way, even for HTPC text, the JVC is the sharpest projector I've owned other than the Mits hc4000 (and I wouldn't say on text the difference is even noticeable 95% of the time).

JVC has figured out how to make some really sharp projectors.

I was reading this article a few days ago and I couldn't believe the difference between .65" and .95". He says the only way you can match a .95" DMD is to have crazy good optics. Which is something you just aren't going to see below $5000.

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

I also realize that DILA has come a long way since the RS20. It would seem that an RS20 (with decent convergence) is actually sharper than most .65" DLPs which is really intersting. I owned the RS20 for about 6 months and used it on average 3 hours a day. The perceived sharpness difference between the RS20 and my Planar PD8150 is pretty big. My RS20 had similar convergence to the one in that article.

I got a chance to see an RS45 a few weeks ago and while I noticed a big jump in perceived sharpness I don't think its on the same level as the bigger .95" DLPs yet.

For some reason sharpness is a real deal breaker for me. I was fine at taking a hit with black level performance and going to a much sharper image. I guess I'd rather have "decent" blacks with the sharpest image as opposed to the other way around.

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post #33 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 08:07 AM
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Nice comparison. The only info I'd like to be able to find would be a 2D comparison against the HC4000 and the H9500BD. From what I've been able to find the Acer seems to have better blacks, but I can't find a direct comparison. I don't really care about 3D, but that would be a nice bonus.

I do know that the HC4000 is better calibrated out of the box, but the Acer could be calibrated since I use an HTPC. I've got about a week to decide between the two before I start my install.

Thoughts?
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post #34 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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No idea, but if I had to guess, I'd say the Mits hc4000 wins in 2D even though the blacks aren't quite as good, but it could go either way. I'd have to see both to know.



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post #35 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

No idea, but if I had to guess, I'd say the Mits hc4000 wins in 2D even though the blacks aren't quite as good, but it could go either way. I'd have to see both to know.

I'm still leaning toward the Mits for other reasons, but it would be nice to know, or at least have a better idea. The real question I have to ask myself is if the slightly better blacks are worth ~$500 more in price over the Mits.
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post #36 of 259 Old 02-08-2012, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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It'd be a trade-off, the Acer is most likely not as sharp as the Mits, the lens is cheaper on the Acer.

Also, the Mits is very good in so many areas, and the black levels are not bad even without an IRIS considering the HIGH native contrast of the Mits (about 50% more than the Acer). Most importantly, the Mits calibrates perfectly, and even OOTB it isn't that far off (Gamma is spot on, but color-wise green is off a bit and so is red at first). The Mits also uses Dark Chip 3 vs. the Acer's dark chip 2.



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post #37 of 259 Old 02-27-2012, 04:21 PM
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how about the Mits hc7800?
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post #38 of 259 Old 02-27-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It means if you do not have 100% light control such as you have some outside light coming into the room (from window or from another room). Also if you have white walls a slightly brighter projector can help.

Overall it depends on screen size, the hd33 should be plenty bright at 1.3 gain especially for 2D, mainly gain is needed for 3D use.

i have 100inches FAVI 1.3gain screen for it. also my room is kind of white wall. it is kind of yellow color wall or tanish color wall.

which one is better ? Acer 9500bd or HD33 projector?
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post #39 of 259 Old 02-27-2012, 07:39 PM
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Ranking the Mitsubishi 4000 over the Panasonic AE4000 is very curious. From every review I've read the AE4000 is the superior projector. I guess if you prefer the DLP look then maybe, but the black levels are not even close between these two
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post #40 of 259 Old 02-27-2012, 08:50 PM
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It's an interesting thing in how does the video really look. If you were to turn off the on/off iris the panny would probably have a native CR at about 1000.1 while the Mits might be 3000.1 or 3times more punch or higher.

I can see it in the Sharp Z3000 I got for $300, which has a tested 4000.1 in medium fixed iris and 6500.1 in high contrast fixed iris.

How does the video really look. On the Sharp it looks way better all the time vs a 30000.1 LCD I have even with it's DI on. Don't give up on DLP just yet it's still the best technology out there.

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post #41 of 259 Old 02-27-2012, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

Ranking the Mitsubishi 4000 over the Panasonic AE4000 is very curious. From every review I've read the AE4000 is the superior projector. I guess if you prefer the DLP look then maybe, but the black levels are not even close between these two

The Panny wins in dark scenes, I've seen the two projectors. Reviewers are too quick to judge a projector solely by dynamic contrast from the IRIS, even when another projector isn't ALL that far behind. The Mits wins in gaming, sharpness, all bright scenes, pixel fill, native motion, and several other areas. The Mits is behind the Panny in black levels because of NO IRIS, but IRIS'd black levels are a tad overdone or fake anyhow to some extent. Some would prefer the Panny, but there are definitely a split mix of differences between these two projectors, they are polar opposites on strengths and weaknesses.

 




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post #42 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

It's an interesting thing in how does the video really look. If you were to turn off the on/off iris the panny would probably have a native CR at about 1000.1 while the Mits might be 3000.1 or 3times more punch or higher.

I can see it in the Sharp Z3000 I got for $300, which has a tested 4000.1 in medium fixed iris and 6500.1 in high contrast fixed iris.

How does the video really look. On the Sharp it looks way better all the time vs a 30000.1 LCD I have even with it's DI on. Don't give up on DLP just yet it's still the best technology out there.

I've seen the AE4000 measure at about 5000:1 for native contrast.

Its silly saying you should measure the AE4000 without the iris. Thats like saying you need to measure a car with a turbo without its turbo engaged. Its part of the package.
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post #43 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Panny only wins in dark scenes, I've seen the two projectors. Reviewers are too quick to judge a projector solely by dynamic contrast from the IRIS, even when another projector isn't ALL that far behind. The Mits wins in gaming, sharpness, all bright scenes, pixel fill, native motion, and several other areas. The Mits is behind the Panny in black levels because of NO IRIS, but IRIS'd black levels are a tad overdone or fake anyhow to some extent. Some would prefer the Panny, but there are definitely a split mix of differences between these two projectors, they are polar opposites on strengths and weaknesses.

The Panny's blacks are also not as good as many of the reviewers claim, and they are still a FAR cry from the Epsons or JVC's.

Pretty much all projectors (even $500 projectors) look great in light scenes. The difference is handling dark scenes. The Mits may look 5% better in light scenes but probably 30% worse in dark scenes than the Panny. Plus the Mits has one of the worst placement flexability/offset know to man. Basically if your ceiling is under 8 feet you can't ceiling mount this guy.

You say better native motion. Funny how you just ignore the special features in the AE4000. Sharpness is just a preference. To me DLP looks non-film like and almost digital.

You mention gaming as an advantage for the Mitsu, but you don't mention 2.35 movie playing as an advantage for the AE4000.

Its like all the special features of the AE4000 don't exist (dynamic iris, lense shift, lense memory, CFI)
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post #44 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 12:25 PM
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"The Mits hc4000 actually has a higher Native on/off at farthest throw, the sample I measured was 3,800:1 at farthest throw after some tweaking. The Panny I measured was 3,100:1. "

I didn't know that, well that's pretty good I'd have to say the Panny should better better overall.

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post #45 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 02:02 PM
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It just seems odd that you are the only one who even puts the Mit4000 and the Panny4000 even in the same class. I have not seen even one professional review that says the Mitsu has the superior image. In fact they hardly even compare the 2 since the Panny competes with the Epson UB. Both of which are in another level compared to the Mits4000. They usually compare the Mitsu to the $1k Optoma or Epson 8350.

I have read a professional review measure the Panny4000 at 5000:1 native. With the Iris active it would at least triple the black levels of the Mits. That's not a small difference. Why do people spend literally 3 or 4 times more for a JVC? Mainly for black levels.

Yes I do own the Panny. But I also own 2 Mitsu projectors (1 lcd, 1 dlp) and love them both. But I don't think the HC4000 is even in the same class, let alone have the superior picture.
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post #46 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

It just seems odd that you are the only one who even puts the Mit4000 and the Panny4000 even in the same class. I have not seen even one professional review that says the Mitsu has the superior image. In fact they hardly even compare the 2 since the Panny competes with the Epson UB. Both of which are in another level compared to the Mits4000. They usually compare the Mitsu to the $1k Optoma or Epson 8350.

I have read a professional review measure the Panny4000 at 5000:1 native. With the Iris active it would at least triple the black levels of the Mits. That's not a small difference. Why do people spend literally 3 or 4 times more for a JVC? Mainly for black levels.

Yes I do own the Panny. But I also own 2 Mitsu projectors (1 lcd, 1 dlp) and love them both. But I don't think the HC4000 is even in the same class, let alone have the superior picture.

I think the 4th post in this thread summed it up for me:

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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

As stated by coderguy, it's a subjective, "personal award" list, and certainly subject to discussion and revision therein if determined by coderguy that it's warranted. That was I believe the OPs intent.

I'm sure it would take a very long post to explain the whys & wherefores that make up the basis of all the decision making, and that such in and of itself would be subject to considerable "discussion".

What is absolutely certain is that it was/is a considerable personal effort made to try to offer up a comprehensive evaluation of the attributes of most of today's most popular and well known Projectors, and in that, a great many will find it in the least a interesting and possibly informative read on which to start out from. However I also see it as being a source for considerable dispute among the advocates of the "slighted" projectors....with such things as a already made purchase decision being held dear to those who have already "jumped" and who might find something so defined as being a rebuttal of such decisions.

So...as to it being something anyone can or should use to make definitive decisions based on it alone....I don't think that would be best.

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post #47 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 02:51 PM
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DLP's are sharper. One thing I notice with the LCD with the DI on is whenever there's light or whites in the 2.35 video the black bars black level is raised and it's quite noticable. CR is getting lost at least on my LCD, if the black bars are getting raised the black in the video is getting raised.

That's that ansi thing which the DLP's have no problem with. Mirrors on/off at the same time in different places don't interact with each other. LCD's tech on how it does black must be the cause, how they do it I don't know.

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post #48 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 03:16 PM
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Sooooo.... you are basically saying Epson 5010 is the best ?

Fantastic job!!
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post #49 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

It just seems odd that you are the only one who even puts the Mit4000 and the Panny4000 even in the same class. I have not seen even one professional review that says the Mitsu has the superior image.
Yes I do own the Panny. But I don't think the HC4000 is even in the same class, let alone have the superior picture.

The pro-reviewers also don't talk about ghosting in 3D correctly, you must go read Zombie's thread for that. For instance, the Mits hc4000 actually has ONE of the best images I have ever seen at handling poorer sources or noise in bright scenes even under $5000, and some of the lowest lag for gaming, and is sharper than most projectors near its price. Btw I own a $3000+ JVC and have owned many projectors in the past 2 years. I just setup an Epson 5010 for a friend as well. As much as I love the JVC and Epson, the Mits handles poorer sources better, and this includes 1080p Netflix, only once I get to VUDU streaming levels or Bluray would I say my JVC can keep up with the Mits's cleaner processing (when not judging by contrast of course). I also preferred gaming on the Mits over the JVC, as well as sports. I no longer own the Mits, I own other projectors, they each have strengths and weaknesses. The Mits was just killer in some areas, even though it was cheap.

I am nit-picking, all projectors have issues, trust me on that one, that is why I have gone through so many different ones.



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post #50 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 04:52 PM
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wow...looks like Mit and BenQ rule the under $2k market.

not so long ago, it seems Epson and Pannie were the go to projectors for under $2k.

Coderguy likes DLP. I won't call it bias, but preferance. I can understand that, but for those of us that see rainbows off of every DLP we have ever seen (granted more on some than others), we would rate differently. If I were looking 3D, the 5010 would get serious interest. But, I would have to test out a JVC 45 as well. I'll be stickign with a 'lil ol' 8350 for a couple of years.

This is a great thread - I will point many "what should I buy?" people here.
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post #51 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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It should be noted that I prefer LCOS over DLP for movies (mostly on bluray or VUDU), and DLP for gaming or sports and some general TV. BTW, I think the Panny 4000 is the best projector for some folks, but I do like the Epson better if judging purely by PQ, sorry I am just being honest. As far as the Mits, I only like the Mits better than the Panny overall if factoring in gaming and TV and sports, for just movies it is a harder call, but I might lean towards the Panny, but not at the current price difference. I do not have brand-loyalty, but we all have our own BIAS's. People could call the pro reviewers out on ridiculous assertions as well, we see it all the time.



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post #52 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 05:52 PM
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Like coder or any reviewers, we all have our bias or preferences.

For me, that is nothing like JVC's contrast/black/details for watching dark/sci-fi movies. Sony is better for both movies and sports, which is my 2nd choice. If I'm not RBE sensitive to DLP, that would be my 3rd. LCD is last.

Don't know about LED yet but heard that it's DLP based, so I would not bother to try yet.

Like coder, I've gone thru tons of pjs since 2002 but does not have his budget. I just never owned Viewsonic so can't comment on that.

It's a great thread for some of the newbies as well as an old fart like me.
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post #53 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Like coder or any reviewers, we all have our bias or preferences.

Like coder, I've gone thru tons of pjs since 2002

You ended up with an RS-20 didn't you?
That's a great projector as well, heck it calibrates better than our RS-45's.



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post #54 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It should be noted that I prefer LCOS over DLP for movies (mostly on bluray or VUDU), and DLP for gaming or sports and some general TV. BTW, I think the Panny 4000 is the best projector for some folks, but I do like the Epson better if judging purely by PQ, sorry I am just being honest. As far as the Mits, I only like the Mits better than the Panny overall if factoring in gaming and TV and sports, for just movies it is a harder call, but I might lean towards the Panny, but not at the current price difference. I do not have brand-loyalty, but we all have our own BIAS's. People could call the pro reviewers out on ridiculous assertions as well, we see it all the time.

so your rankings factor in price? I then agree that the Mits is better bang for your buck if you do gaming. For me I only watch bluray on my projector. My plasma is for gaming/sports.
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post #55 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Not really specifically, but the category was "overall image", I guess overall really means the do-it-all image. I could add some addiitonal categories in the sub-$2k section, such as Best Overall image for movies under 2k, in that case though I'd give it to the Epson 8700ub and runner-up to the Benq w6000 and Panny 4000 most likely.



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post #56 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 09:33 PM
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so where exactly would you put the HD33 in the grand scheme of things? i'm looking for a 1080p 3D projector for under $1500. so far, it's my front-runner even though some seem to find the 2D quality lackluster. i plan to do a fair amount of gaming, so the epson 3010 is out of contention. is there anything else i should be looking at?

anyone can feel free to chime in. any input would be appreciated.
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post #57 of 259 Old 02-28-2012, 10:34 PM
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Just some words of wisdom here coder... you're seeing what happens when you create a thread like this based mostly upon personal opinion. I made the mistake of doing this a while back and you'll end up in debate after debate questioning your opinions/motives/agendas (what I discovered pretty quickly is you cannot say projector A is better than projector B, based upon your opinion, without offending projector B owners).

Best of luck,
Jason

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post #58 of 259 Old 02-29-2012, 08:25 AM
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Great thread coderguy, I was originally going with the pro8200 that I saw you recommend but I did more research and got the epson 8350 because I needed maximum zoom and lense shift because of the small room it was going in. Will DLP ever get similar zoom and lens shift to LCD systems? also do more expensive systems like LCOS have similar zoom and lens shift like LCD systems do?

Gear list: Main setup - Kef Q900, Svs sb12-nsd subwoofer, onkyo 609 receiver, epson 8350 projector, elitescreens sable 92" screen, mac mini htpc
bedroom setup: PSB Image B5, maverick tubemagic a1 amplifier, hifimediy sabre9023 dac, ZMF Fostex T50RP modded headphones
preordered gear: Light Harmonic Geek Pulse X dac and headphone amp
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post #59 of 259 Old 02-29-2012, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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The way DLP has to be manufactured prevents them from easily implementing a huge amount of LCD-like lens shift, only the Benq w6000/w7000 has a decent amount of lens shift if considering from center-point of the screen for any reasonable price. I do not expect this to change. The Epson 8350 is a good projector and as a new buyer you cannot really go wrong. The LCOS units do have considerable amount of lens shift more like LCD's, but not quite as much as an Epson has.

I only recommend the Pro8200 for certain uses, just like any projector I recommend is based on price range and the user's requirements. The Pro8200 is good for gaming under $800 if you need a bright image, but some projectors beat it in movies, like the Mits hc4000. In some ways the Epson 8350 also beats the Viewsonic in movies (depends how close you sit to the screen, 8350 slightly better blacks, but Viewsonic produces a smoother image), but in gaming I'd give the edge to the Viewsonic although the 8350 is still very good for gaming as well, although it's been a while since I have seen or played with an 8350 (about a year or more).



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post #60 of 259 Old 03-03-2012, 09:53 AM
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I'm really on the fence about JVC and Epson.... I've always wanted a JVC, simply because of the black levels, contrast, etc. I have a 120", 2:35 screen, 1.3 gain in a dedicated room. Also have a Panamorph lens so CIH is a must for me. Current projector is a Panny ae900 so anything is a major step up.

I went to a dealer yesterday to see the Epson 6010. Also talked to another one on the phone. Both said for 2D they like the 9700UB (8700) more than the 6010 (5010). My wife and I watched some 3D on the 6010 and thought it was good... but I honestly don't know if I could watch a whole movie like that. Wearing glasses just seems odd to me.

3D isn't on top of my list, but I figured it would be a nice to have, a novelty for the kids. My watching is split with movies and TV/sports.

I need to go see the RS45 for myself. Based on what I've wrote, any other opinions out there? I haven't read much about the Panny 7000.

Jerrod

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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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