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post #61 of 259 Old 03-03-2012, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The JVC is the better projector for 2D over the Epson, not really so much because of the black levels, but because of the higher contrast + increased pixel fill ratio. LCOS produces a smoother less edgy image than LCD. The main drawback to the JVC is the operational costs, the lamps cost more and might not last as long as some projectors. I might be hesitant to buy a JVC if half my usage were sports, look at the Sony possibly.


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post #62 of 259 Old 03-07-2012, 05:09 PM
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Thanks for a Great thread coderguy,

I going to setup dual passive 3D with 120'' diagonal screen (16:9) for audience up to 30.

I am really confused in choosing right projector. At the moment I'm considering Panasonic PT-AE7000U, Panasonic PT-AR100U and BenQ SP890

Please can you give me any recommendation/advise

Thanks,
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post #63 of 259 Old 03-07-2012, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d88-88d View Post

Thanks for a Great thread coderguy,

I going to setup dual passive 3D with 120'' diagonal screen (16:9) for audience up to 30.

I am really confused in choosing right projector. At the moment I'm considering Panasonic PT-AE7000U, Panasonic PT-AR100U and BenQ SP890

Please can you give me any recommendation/advise

Thanks,

Choose a PJ that has Vertical Lens Shift and more than adequate Lumens on tap. LCD & Lycos are the usual choices, but if going Dual at the 7000's price point isn't intimidating, There might be a DLP'er in that neighborhood.

What about LG's CF3D Dual Light Engine job? ($11,000) http://www.google.com/url?q=http://w...pkxnA-ZZdsSlgQ

I've used it...and with a good Passive Screen it's the best passive performer I've seen. I've seen it work a 200" Screen in a Public House (Pub) in Belfast, Ire. It would seem to me that for a use such as yours, the extra $5K uptic is more than enough compensation for the far less difficult installation and dual calibration issues. Plus...its also a 4K PJ so non-2D will be coming your way in the best available resolution ever.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"

http://www.invisiblestereo.com
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post #64 of 259 Old 03-07-2012, 09:15 PM - Thread Starter
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It says the LG is only 1920x1080 in that thread.

@d88-88d
I would just go with a single Epson 5010/6010 and just get a screen with some gain. Two projectors is not worth it. The BENQ sp890 has way too much RBE.


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post #65 of 259 Old 03-09-2012, 02:59 PM
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coder,

I actually went back to a RS10 since I did not think the RS20's CMS worth much. It's slightly darker than the RS10 though. Who knows, I might even go back to a RS2 due to its reliability. Normally I would have jumped at the RS40 deal, but don't care for 3D. Somehow JVC's quality seems to be going down while Sony appears to improve. My backup is a Sony VW60, more for sports and TV viewing.
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post #66 of 259 Old 03-17-2012, 11:00 AM
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Hi Coderguy,
You really have done a great service to us with your insightful list-thanks!
I have some questions regarding the BenQ W1200 and W6000 . I have auditioned the Mits HC4000 and absolutely love it's blacks and motion handling and noise free picture on my 1.3 gain 92" grey-screen but am a little disappointed with overall brightness even with a new bulb.
Wondering if you thought I'd be giving up much in pq by moving to the brighter BenQ's?
Also, is the W1200 much of a drop-off in performance from the W6000 (which is getting hard to find!) Biggest concerns would be black-level and noise-free ,high-contrast pop.Thanks in advance!
Steve
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post #67 of 259 Old 03-19-2012, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I have seen both the w6000 and w1200, but I have not spent enough time with the w6000 to make a judgement call. Going by the native on/off numbers, the w6000 will be more dependant on the IRIS, and the w1200 will not have as dark blacks overall.

The w6000 is better, but I doubt the PQ difference would be huge, a little in dark scenes where the IRIS can kick in.


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post #68 of 259 Old 03-24-2012, 03:26 PM
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hey coderguy,
just curious if you could share your thoughts on the LG CF181D now that it's available for about $1500.
i know you briefly mentioned it as "best refurb lcos" but that was about it
i just compared it to the 8350 and thought it was really no contest
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post #69 of 259 Old 03-24-2012, 04:32 PM
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I am interested in the LG CF181D
as well as I have seen them here in Canada for fairly cheap as well around 1500.00 and wondering if anything else would be better for that amount or less.
I hope not as I would love a lcos but the reviews seem to thik the black levels are not the best. Are they as good as entry level lcd or dlp? Such as the pro8200?
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post #70 of 259 Old 03-30-2012, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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For the price it is a good buy, I would probably narrow the LG down to if you mostly watch movies without any gaming. I don't think it can match a DLP for gaming or sports. I don't know that much about the LG.

It will have a slightly smoother looking image, it's really going to be more of a personal preference I think. The LG doesn't have the black levels of say an Epson 8700ub, and probably is closer to an Epson 8350 in black levels, the LG might be a little better.

The LG is really bright though, so keep that in mind. I would check out Art's review on this projector to learn more.


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post #71 of 259 Old 03-30-2012, 01:09 PM
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I think you pretty much nailed it on the head with the LG.

I just did a side-by-side demo with the 8350 and the LG. I was coming off the Vivitek 1080 until the DMD failed.

LG was much smoother, more "analog", especially during close-ups. In detailed scenes (such as twigs in trees, etc.) it seemed slightly "smeared" for lack of better word.

Colour was much better. Black level a little better. Overall image was much more refined though. It was a clear difference. The 8350 definitely had a "shrill/digital" image when compared, though I didn't really notice until I did the side-by-side.

Shadow detail was the best I've seen. It seems to render these sort of darker/background images with amazing detail.

But still for some reason, I'm not totally convinced on this projector.

I'm still debating whether to keep it or jump into 3D. There's some pretty good deals on refurb'd JVC's, but seems as though the 5010 might be another option.

There's no perfect projector yet, but coderguy's excellent thread is helping me to decide.
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post #72 of 259 Old 07-31-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I have seen both the w6000 and w1200, but I have not spent enough time with the w6000 to make a judgement call. Going by the native on/off numbers, the w6000 will be more dependant on the IRIS, and the w1200 will not have as dark blacks overall.


The w6000 is better, but I doubt the PQ difference would be huge, a little in dark scenes where the IRIS can kick in.

Hi Coderguy, (and Zombie)

Just a follow-up question regarding the HC4000 vs W6000: I think I prefer the DC3 of the HC4000 for its better blacks (after trying an ND2 filter on W6000 to tame it).

Both were run on a 92 inch grey .8 gain screen for A/B testing. Problem with HC4000 in this set-up was it's relatively lower light output and "pop". I was able to easily run W6000 in economy, not even close with HC4000.

What is your advice concerning the suitability of a high-power (2.4) model B of 120". Would I buy some headroom in light output withou giving up much in black-level on the HC4000? I have some moderate light control but not a cave. Also,would rainbow sensitivity likely go-up with more gain ( I am marginally affected)

Thanks again!
Steve
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post #73 of 259 Old 07-31-2012, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The HP screen would provide almost NO gain with a DLP ceiling mounted to that large of a screen, I believe it would be around 0.9 to 1.3 gain depending on your seating position and height. Gain would increase RBE sensitivity until the lamp wore in. If you are RBE sensitive, I'd be hesitant to buy these 4x color wheels and these DLP's you mentioned. I still like the HP screen with DLP's, but not for a non-light cannon projector that is going to be mounted so high up.

I would instead recommend the Optoma hd33, it is brighter than the Mits hc4000, blacks not quite as good but not that much different, sharpness maybe not quite as good but close enough for video. The Optoma hd33 paired with a Darby Darblet (you can buy them from AVS) would be a great choice to get a picture just as sharp (or even sharper) than the Mits hc4000 but with less RBE. Plus you get 3D. You might want to get the hd3300 (comes with longer warranty) or pair the hd33 with an extended warranty.


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post #74 of 259 Old 08-06-2012, 08:51 AM
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First off, what a great thread! Thanks for doing this. smile.gif

I am a audiophool...built my own tube amps, speakers, Class D amps, etc. I am always fooling around with my set-up. When it comes to HT though, I am a noobie at best.

I have decided to buy my first FP and the more I read up on these projectors the more I can't make a decision!!.

Here are my particulars...

The projector will be in the basement. My throw distance is flexible anywhere from 12' to 17'. I have total flexiblilty but will probably ceiling mount the FP. The vast majority of use will be movies in a light controlled room. Maybe 10 to 20% sports with the lighting anywhere from none to medium depending...

I might DIY a 120" (diagonal) screen using a Sintra board which will be spray painted with either a "recipe" found on this forum or over at Home Theater Shack. Or I might just get a package deal from Visual Apex and use one of their fixed 120" Vapex sceens(matte white, 1.1 gain).

The projectors I am currently looking at are:
Epson 8350(refurbed) - great price, but am scared about reading all the quality problems with this unit. It seems if you get a good one you are lucky. While Epson's service and warranty is second to none, alot of people are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th units and still can't seem to get an 8350 without problems. A friend has one and loves it.
Epson 8700UB(refurbed) - Epson's warranty appeals to me as well as the reviews on this unit. Read it has good black levels for the money. But then again, I don't really know if this will be an important issue being this is my first projector.
Epson 3010 - Looks to be a good entry level all around projector. It doesn't have lens shift but with the flexibility I have, this probably will not be an issue. I am ambivilent towards 3-D. I am also not a gamer and at this time 3-D is not that important. However, the 3010 is around the same price as the 8700UB and is a newer model.

You are probably getting the picture by now that I really don't want to spend more than $1,600 on my first projector. Any thoughts would certainly be welcome. Again, movies and 2D picture quality are the most important to me. The only DLP units I have read about have been the HC4000 and the Benq W7000. LCOS - the LG CF181D. I am figuring the JVC models are more than I want to spend for my first projector.

Regards,
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post #75 of 259 Old 08-06-2012, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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You can get the B-stock RS40's just a tiny bit out of your budget and not much difference in price than the 8700ub refurb'd.
Out of that list, I would pick the 8700ub refurbished. The 3010 has lackluster contrast, and the 8350 is only a tad better, but both are far behind the 8700ub in contrast and black levels.


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post #76 of 259 Old 08-06-2012, 10:00 AM
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Coderguy:

Thanks for your response. I will look into the B-stock JVS RS-40. Could you list some possible vendors?

Also, thank you for the advice on the Epsons. I was leaning towards the package deal that Visual Apex has going with the 8700UB. I would certainly appreciate any advice on combo of the 8700ub paired with the VaPex 120" screen. The price is certainly very appealing.

Regards,
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post #77 of 259 Old 08-06-2012, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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The only place I know that sells the B-Stock RS-40's and 45's are AVS - the Forum sponsor.
Give them a call...

I personally prefer the Da-Lite High Power screen to maximize lamp life, but there are some caveats to it.


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post #78 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 10:17 AM
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Coderguy:

Thanks for the reply. I did talk to Mike at AVS about the RS-40(seems like a good guy). The price is certainly where I want to be. I am a tad concerned with the"bulb" issues of the JVC units as he said the reburbed RS-40 will ship with a generation 2 bulb. Although, he did say if the bulb started to act up to just call him and he would be able to help me.-

He recommended the 118 Inch Diagonal Criterion Series Projection Screen - 1.78 to 1, Brilliant white(1.4 gain) to pair with the JVC RS-40. This screen runs around $800 which was more than I wanted to spend.

What would you recommend as an alternative? Dn't get me wrong...I want to get off as inexpensively as I can on the screen but will spend what it takes within reason to bring out the qualities of either the RS-40 or the 8700ub.

Regards,
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post #79 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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It partly depends on your room environment, such as if you are ceiling mounting or shelf mounting semi-low?
How many hours per year do you use your projector (if less than 500 hours per year, I would not even worry about lamp costs). If you do use the PJ a lot of hours per year, then I think once the warranty expires what some of us are planning to do is to buy third-party lamp warranties so that if the bulb does blow after JVC will no longer replace lamps, then we will use the warranty. This does increase the cost of the lamp further, but overall I think it will reduce the cost in the long-run. Run your lamp in high-altitude mode and this may help further but it does increase the fan noise a tiny bit.

To get a cheaper screen, you'd need to look at either a more generic model or using a PULLDOWN instead of a FIXED frame. I use a pulldown and like it ok (as long as it has a black frame), but it is not aesthetically pleasing as a fixed frame screen.

Many of us use the Da-Lite High Power screen because it reduces lamp costs if the lamp starts to DIM too early. Now he recommended a pretty good screen (1.4 gain isn't bad) and keep in mind that with an alternative like the HP screen in a standard mounting spot, you won't really get that much more gain than the screen Mike recommended, so you'll get like 1.5 to 1.7 gain if you shelf mount (if you ceiling mount, you will get much less gain). Not all screens have variable gain depending on mounting spot, but the HP screen does. This means you can get as much as 2.0+ gain out of the Da-Lite HP screen if you are willing to mount the projector nearly directly overhead or to the side of your head, but that is not always a great mounting spot. I get about 1.6 gain in my current mounting spot, and can squeeze out about 1.8 gain by moving it lower. The key to the Da-Lite High Power screen is you have to be aware of the CON's as well as the PRO's in the setup process.

So there are some setup issues you need to be aware of with the Da-Lite High Power screen, but you can find them a little cheaper than that one you mentioned (but at your screen size and if going fixed frame, then probably not much cheaper - if any). $800 is actually about right for the cost of a fixed frame screen at that size, unless you want to save money with a pulldown.

Short Post about the HP Screen
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21920823#post21920823

Extremely Detailed Post about the Pro's / Con's of the HP screen
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1377321/official-epson-powerlite-home-cinema-5010-6010-thread/2160#post_22248006

...


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post #80 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 10:54 AM
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I wouldn't go to cheap on a screen. To me fixed frame screens are well worth the price. Yes they cost more but they last very long.

I have a fixed frame Da-lite that is almost a decade old and has been through 3 projectors so far. Looks just as good as the day I bought it.
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post #81 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I've had my pulldown HP screen for several years and it has lasted fine as well. However, I don't really disagree with you, except the reason I didn't want a fixed frame is because I may want to change to 2.35 or get a bigger screen (I move around a lot). So that made the cheaper pulldown perfect for me as I did not plan on this screen being my final choice for many years (I actually ended up using it longer than I anticipated).

So it really just depends on each individual to what they buy.


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Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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post #82 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I've had my pulldown HP screen for several years and it has lasted fine as well. However, I don't really disagree with you, except the reason I didn't want a fixed frame is because I may want to change to 2.35 or get a bigger screen (I move around a lot). So that made the cheaper pulldown perfect for me as I did not plan on this screen being my final choice for many years (I actually ended up using it longer than I anticipated).
So it really just depends on each individual to what they buy.

Hey coderguy,

I noticed you had mentioned in this thread the sharpness of the LCD Viewsonic Pro8100 and stated that the JVC was slightly sharper. I have the Pro8100 and just ordered a JVC X3 to replace it, can I expect a brighter image than the Viewsonic has? I have a 106" 1.1 gain screen, flat black walls and ceiling and projector will be about 12' from the screen.Totally light controlled black room.

Thanks,
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post #83 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The JVC is a little brighter in best mode, but it will depend on lamp wear and some luck ultimately. I think I was speaking about the Pro8200 or I may have been speculating as far as sharpness goes.
I think the average JVC should be about as sharp as the Pro8100 as well though or really close, and I think if you get a better than average converged JVC then you are approaching DLP sharpness levels.

The higher contrast and smoother image will be the most noticeable difference.

There are some people that have owned both a JVC RS-40/45 and the Benq w6000/w7000 and have said that the sharpness of their very well converged JVC was VERY close to the BENQ (surprisingly enough), and some even said the Benq was not any sharper (on average though a DLP is sharper than an LCOS). However, as with all non-DLP units, there are sample variances in sharpness from unit to unit and the JVC's I have seen are noticeably sharper than most other non-DLP's on average, and definitely often a JVC is even sharper than a cheap DLP (depending on the model).


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #84 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The JVC is a little brighter in best mode, but it will depend on lamp wear and some luck ultimately. I think I was speaking about the Pro8200 or I may have been speculating as far as sharpness goes.
I think the average JVC should be about as sharp as the Pro8100 as well though or really close, and I think if you get a better than average converged JVC then you are approaching DLP sharpness levels.
The higher contrast and smoother image will be the most noticeable difference.
There are some people that have owned both a JVC RS-40/45 and the Benq w6000/w7000 and have said that the sharpness of their very well converged JVC was VERY close to the BENQ (surprisingly enough), and some even said the Benq was not any sharper (on average though a DLP is sharper than an LCOS). However, as with all non-DLP units, there are sample variances in sharpness from unit to unit and the JVC's I have seen are noticeably sharper than most other non-DLP's on average, and definitely often a JVC is even sharper than a cheap DLP (depending on the model).

Thanks,

It almost sounds like a flaw in JVC projectors that you may or may not get a good unit which is kind of scarry from a consumer point. Or is that the case with all models from all compaines? I just want to see a big difference from my almost 5 year old Viewsonic to the JVC X3. I have been reading every website/magazine/blogs/electonic shows that I could over the last several months and all seem to state that for overall movie watching there is nothing like a JVC.
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post #85 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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All units (but mainly LCD and LCOS) have sharpness variances. A DLP usually does not, but a few can have lens variations. It is not a flaw in the MFR process with JVC, because all manufacturers have variances, and there are expensive processes that go into aligning convergence and due to the MFR error tolerance there will be some units that end up better than others off the same assembly line.

You should notice a major improvement, the JVC has much better contrast, it is smoother, and a little brighter. Watch something with dark scenes like Harry Potter or space stuff and you will see a huge difference.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

All units (but mainly LCD and LCOS) have sharpness variances. A DLP usually does not, but a few can have lens variations. It is not a flaw in the MFR process with JVC, because all manufacturers have variances, and there are expensive processes that go into aligning convergence and due to the MFR error tolerance there will be some units that end up better than others off the same assembly line.
You should notice a major improvement, the JVC has much better contrast, it is smoother, and a little brighter. Watch something with dark scenes like Harry Potter or space stuff and you will see a huge difference.

Thanks coder, you have restored my confidence! biggrin.gif
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post #87 of 259 Old 08-07-2012, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Plus the JVC allows you to shift the pixels if the convergence is off, and since you can shift it a full pixel at once, there shouldn't be too many negatives in doing this. This means you can correct some of the error even if it exists. So the most the convergence can really be off after adjustments is only 1/2 pixel on any color, so that is really not that much from seating distance anyhow unless all colors are off by the max. The Epson 5010 also has convergence adjustment, but from what I've seen it does not work as well as the JVC's convergence adjustment given the Epson sometimes starts out with poorer convergence in the first place and I think the JVC has a tighter focus than the Epson even on equalized convergence. Most of the newer JVC's are off about 1/2 pixel blue and only a tiny bit on RED. You want to be off on BLUE before RED, because BLUE has almost no effect on sharpness unless it is off by a large amount.

When you first open the JVC and fire it up, wait an hour or so to check the convergence, because the RED often falls back into place as the projector warms up.

On an older LCD, we'd often see convergence off 1+ pixels and there was no corrective settings available, so these newer projectors have come a long ways.
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- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
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All projectors have their own strengths and weaknesses; it's what you could live with.

My wife does not care for my HT setup, but the JVC is the only brand that gave her the "Wow" impression, comparing to Sony SXRD and Mitsubishi DLP. Don'[t get me wrong, most people would be happy with either the Sony or Mitsubishi but I want mine in (crt) black, like the original Ford.
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Exactly, and although this list mainly focused on what projectors are best at, I could just as easily make a different list of what projectors are weak at certain things.

Basically, DLP is better for TV and Sports and a little better for hardcore gamers if you get a DLP with low-lag. LCOS is better for movies and still does very well for TV if you have a very clean source (some cable signals just aren't great). LCD is edgier than the other two techs, sometimes it can even POP a little more on certain types of scenes like a closeup of someone's face (look more 3D), but as a trade-off you get a more inconsistent looking image with LCD across varying content (more digital). Sometimes LCD looks flatter than the other two techs even though on some scenes it may temporarily look better, IMHO this is what makes LCD inconsistent. Overall I like DLP and LCOS better, but they each have their own little areas of strengths and weaknesses.

When it comes down to it, I can find certain movies that look better on different projectors just because of how much noise is in the image or the way they were mastered might favor a certain tech. As one quick example, the movie "Into the Wild" always looks better on a DLP projector, I can't explain why other than the way it was filmed and the noise tends to favor DLP over LCD and LCOS. Yet other movies like Harry Potter look better on LCOS, but there are even some movies with primarily only bright scenes like Mr. Popper's Penguins which still look just as good on LCOS as a DLP for the most part (because the movie was just very cleanly filmed with good lighting). Some DLP projectors are the most forgiving of all the techs when it comes to poorer sources and inconsistent lighting, but overall it depends on which DLP or which LCOS or which LCD we are talking about.

On average though, LCOS wins for movies (just not all movies), and as some TV shows are starting to use higher quality filming methods much like movies do (Game of Thrones for instance), then this means some TV shows will also be preferred on LCOS.


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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When I come back from vacation, I'll order a Darbee - check out the Video Processors thread's review by Chris Young.
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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