Epson 5010/6010 and 150" Screen - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 12:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone

I have been doing a bit of research and I am wondering if my decision is the right one.

Room(First floor) - 14'-2" x 17' ish tape measure wasn't quite long enough...
Room 2(2nd floor) - 14'2" x ??? can go a lot further back (22'+) upstairs + deck. Will be watching at night, plenty to white walls. over 5 windows. Projector location will be in front of windows for both rooms. The first floor is naturally darker and the room can be painted dark grey/black)

What my requirements are:
1. I really want a 150" screen, I really do not want to go any less
2. Good 2D performance. I don't use 3D I wear glasses.

Grandview Tab-tensions Series - 150"
NCIX Charges 1499.99 CAD
http://www.grandviewscreen.ca/product?pid=14

Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 5010 HDTV 1080p 3D LCD Projector 2400 ANSI 200000:1 Fujinon Lens
Price - 2749.99 CAD from NCIX

According to the projection calculater on projectorcentral a 150" screen should be fine on the 150" screen. But both seem to be different giving me different measurements on image brightness @ 2.00 zoom

5010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.01 zoom = 16 fl
6010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.00 zoom = 32 fl <--- what ?!

Does anyone know if this setup will work?
Any suggestions will be very welcome.

Future upgrades definitely not the near future:
DNP 85 screen, avoiding BD screens blue push and sparkles. Performance seems very good on multiple videos.

Off course, I'm thinking of having the systems calibrated as well.

Also looking for your input on this MississippiMan!

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
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post #2 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 04:58 AM
 
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150" is too big for that projector unless you want to tradeoff picture and sound quality.

I don't know what figures the PC calculator uses but here are some figures.

Projector Reviews best picture quality mode 630 lumens or ~9.5 ft/l, Projector central measured 830 lumens or ~12.6 ft/l. I think projector central must have had a very good bulb and measured it at the short end of the zoom. I'm guessing that's why the difference. There is ~40% difference between the short and long range of the zoom lens. So you need to keep placement in mind when figuring lumens and ft/l.

Also, keep in mind that these figures are with a new bulb and bulbs lose 50-60% of their brightness over their lifespan. So what might be acceptable now might not be in a few months after you get some hours on the bulb.

To do a 150" screen I would suggest a screen with gain or you will have to use the projector in one of its brighter less accurate modes. Gain screens have their limitations and advantages. So you have to decide if the picture quality differences are worth it.

Also, audio tends to suffer with larger screens because speakers tend to end up in not good acoustic locations like on or near the floor, ceiling and corners of the room. The solution for this is an acoustically transparent screen which for an electric screen usually gets pricey.

So you have to pick your tradeoffs.
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post #3 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the gain that's recommended for a screen this large?

Quote:
Projector Reviews best picture quality mode 630 lumens or ~9.5 ft/l, Projector central measured 830 lumens or ~12.6 ft/l. I think projector central must have had a very good bulb and measured it at the short end of the zoom. I'm guessing that's why the difference. There is ~40% difference between the short and long range of the zoom lens. So you need to keep placement in mind when figuring lumens and ft/l.

5010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.01 zoom = 16 fl
6010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.00 zoom = 32 fl
It's about the same zoom.... I don't see why the difference is so large unless one is using a new bulb and the other one is an old one.

And the thing with the audio, I'm going to position the front towers a bit further from the wall by about a foot and tilted slightly toward the listening position. The towers got good power to them anyways at 250w 8ohm 400w @ 4 ohms. And the Sub can go underneath the projection screen.

1.3gain


Epson 6010 zoom of 2.00x = 42 fl (150")
Epson 5010 zoom of 2.00x = 20-21 fl (150")
Epson 8700UB zoom of 2.01x = 28 fl (150")
Epson 9700UB zoom of 2.00x = 28 fl (150")

My assumption is the bulb is cherry picked 0.o with about the same zoom its ranging from 20 - 42 fl.
Would you guys recommend the Stewart Studiotek 130? or will I need higher gain?

If anyone have some experience on large screens let me know!

** Note - I don't care about 3D **

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
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post #4 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 07:16 PM
 
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I have a lot of experience with large screens, I do this for a living. I'd use projector review's lumen numbers as a guideline. Not because I think they are more accurate but because they measure closer to our own measurements when calibrating these models. There is always a unit to unit difference with bulbs for output and color spectrum. I don't know where the PC calculator gets its figure from but they are not realistic. You are not going to get anywhere near 16-32ft/l on a 150" screen with the 5010 or 6010 in best picture quality mode, in other modes no problem.

If you are viewing in a dark environment you want at least 12ft/l, more if you plan to have ambient light. I already mentioned bulbs lose 50-60% of their brightness over their lifepsan, and you'll take a good 20-25% hit within the first 300-500 hundred hours or so. So it makes sense to calculate 25+ ft/l with a new bulb, or at least 20 ft/l and change your bulb a little early. You can always cut the lumens if it is too bright when you first get it by either using low power mode or a ND filter.

Gain screens can get you the brightness you need but you have to understand the tradeoffs. If you are only going to get ~9-12 ft/l you want at least a 2.0 gain for that screen size. You can go with a lesser gain and put the projector in one of its brighter modes, even a 1.0 gain will work in its brighter modes.

Any gain screen will hotspot, cause slight image distortion, and have a limited viewing angle compared to a reference white screen like the Studiotek 100. Depending on your situation a gain screen can work well. Most gain screens work better the further back the projector is placed, this reduces the hot spotting and distortions. However it is usually the furthest part of the zoom lens so the projector will output less lumens.

There are also different type of gain screens angular reflective and retro- reflective. Angular is better for ceiling mounted projectors and retro-reflective is better for table mounts or shelf mounted just above your head height. The Studiotek 130 is angular reflective as is all Stewart's screens with gain. The Active 170 or 5D would be better choices in the Stewart Lineup to achieve the brightness you need. Stewart makes some of the best screens, but depending on the projector's location other brands might be a better solution.

So for now your options for a 150" screen are:

1. Use a brighter projector
2. Use a gain screen
3. Put the projector in a brighter mode

As far as the audio putting your towers 1' from the corner is going to cause SBIR (speaker boundary interference response) from two surfaces (front and side walls). To reduce this you have to keep you speakers at least 3.5' from any wall assuming an 80hz crossover, further if you use a lower crossover. You can treat this distortion with acoustic treatments. How much power being fed to the speakers is important to reach the volume levels you desire but good sound starts with well placed speakers, subs and seating followed by acoustic treatments and EQ as the final tweak. EQ can't fix how sound reflects in your room, it doesn't change physics.

If your main goal is to get the largest screen you can you know your tradeoffs. You just have to pick which way you want to achieve it.
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post #5 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 07:20 PM
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i was in the same exact position as you. i've since dropped down to a 135. haven purchased yet, but i;m going with a 1.1 gain and epson 5010
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post #6 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:


Also looking for your input on this MississippiMan!

Who? ......me?


Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead2k View Post

Hello Everyone

I have been doing a bit of research and I am wondering if my decision is the right one.

Room(First floor) - 14'-2" x 17' ish tape measure wasn't quite long enough...
Room 2(2nd floor) - 14'2" x ??? can go a lot further back (22'+) upstairs + deck. Will be watching at night, plenty to white walls. over 5 windows. Projector location will be in front of windows for both rooms. The first floor is naturally darker and the room can be painted dark grey/black)

Well then make your job easier and go for that First Floor room. If your room's viewing axis can be on the Long Wall, you'll start off with much less reflection from the side walls with a large screen like a 150"er. If you envision only 1 Row of seats, the the Screen can be placed as low as can be comfortably watched from a reclined position, therein also reducing reflections from the ceiling.

Of course, if you do go with a 2-toned Gray...Dark Gray walls and 3x Darker Gray ceiling and trim, that will allow you more lee way as far a deciding PJ/Screen positioning. But consider this. acoustically, the room will sound better in Multi-channel mode if the distance between the R-C-L Mains is a great as possible, you keep the R&L spks out of the corners....and the distance between the Surrounds and Center Rears are more compressed. Lastly, the larger room's volume will absorb more sound requiring more "audio" volume for a given circumstance, and therein potentially setting you up for needing various sound treatment scenarios.

Quote:


What my requirements are:
1. I really want a 150" screen, I really do not want to go any less
2. Good 2D performance. I don't use 3D I wear glasses.

Grandview Tab-tensions Series - 150"
NCIX Charges 1499.99 CAD
http://www.grandviewscreen.ca/product?pid=14

Well if you want a retractable, choosing a Tab tensioned type is wise. Sadly, almost no one Mfgs a TT Screen in a High Gain / High Contrast material. Scratch that...."NO ONE" does.

You could get such a screen and re-coat it with a proven High Gain Paint (via spraying)....or if possible for you skill set, construct a 150" Black Out Screen for around $100.00...get everything together to spray a coating onto it ($150.00) and for $250-300.00 USD, get a "High Performance Fixed Screen" that suits you to a tee for over a $1000.00 less than a Mfg Retractable.

Quote:


Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 5010 HDTV 1080p 3D LCD Projector 2400 ANSI 200000:1 Fujinon Lens
Price - 2749.99 CAD from NCIX

Shucks....I can get a 6010 for about $200 more USD.

Quote:


According to the projection calculater on projectorcentral a 150" screen should be fine on the 150" screen. But both seem to be different giving me different measurements on image brightness @ 2.00 zoom

5010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.01 zoom = 16 fl
6010 @ 1.0 Gain 2.00 zoom = 32 fl <--- what ?!

I'll plainly state that the figures shown that apply to both PJs are in the lower values range because your taking them at the "mid-throw" distance.

I recently shoe-horned in a 6010 for a 174"x 74" 2.35:1 CIH set up (189" diagonal ) that is also a massive 98" x 174" 200"er in 16:9..... and in 2D on a 1.3 gain DIY screen....it can be said by many to be almost "too bright" in a Dark room setting owning to the 22 fls the Screen is reflecting.

Quote:


Does anyone know if this setup will work?
Any suggestions will be very welcome.

You can make it work if you choose wisely and match up the two main components...Screen & PJ, so that both compliment each others strong points and neither works against, no overtly depends upon the other to do all the hard work.

Quote:


Future upgrades definitely not the near future:

Then you better get it right the first time.


Quote:


DNP 85 screen, avoiding BD screens blue push and sparkles. Performance seems very good on multiple videos.

If spending money to solve your problems is acceptable, then the higher gain ISF Rated DNP product is your Huckleberry.

If you want to get there at a fraction of the cost...the consider allowing us on DIY Screens to mentor you into a great DIY Screen w/ 1.3+ gain...thereby allowing you to consider a better PJ with the Money saved.

Quote:


Off course, I'm thinking of having the systems calibrated as well.

Also looking for your input on this MississippiMan!

Who? Me.....?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #7 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 07:50 PM
 
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Stewart's 5D is a high gain, high contrast, tab tensioned screen. It is 2.0 gain so unless you are looking at an HP or Silverstar there is not much out there with a higher gain. It is however pretty pricey.
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post #8 of 46 Old 02-19-2012, 09:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for your very detailed response MM.

I have question though :P
1. What Is considered midthrow?
2. Is blackout cloth a smooth material?

DIY route looks very attractive right now.
Looking in to materials atm...

Screen Materials

1. Screen
http://www.carlofet.com/diy-projecto...-material.html
2. ??? wood type ???
3. ??? tension required ???
4. ??? Paint recipe for 1.3+ gain that yields great results to your standard MM ???
5. ??? Reliable equipment that YOU trust ???
6. Velvet http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1387541

Just so you know... My carpentry skills are ZERO.
I have made up my mind to paint the room at the lower floor with a dark grey/black gold theme. I will be looking at carpets next week, I got to work weekdays =/

I'm going to get a crash course on CAD so I can draw you guys out something.

Quote:


Then you better get it right the first time.

I will try. But I'm just assuming to get the same brightness and performance I would have to probably have to go on to super bright triple DLPs. JVCs don't seems to have the lumen output, and neither does Sony. Maybe the BENQ DLP, however, I'm worried about rainbow for more sensitive viewers.

I also just recently noticed people people have tried using 2 projectors, doing so can also improve contrast and black levels. Off course I know its not that simple to just throw it together. But I just want to consider all options and understand everything.
I ran into the 4k double projector thread O.O

I love scalability if possible. All I need to do i save a bit more since DIY would save $$

I'm still gathering info.
Let me know about the paints MM

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
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post #9 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 12:17 AM
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I have an Epson 8500Ub projected onto a Seymour A/T screen at 153" and sit 14-15' from the screen. The Seymour is 1.2??????? gain.

I believe the 5010 is brighter than the 8500Ub. Don't let others tell you it's too big........it's not.








To give perspective, I'm 6'4" and weigh 270Lb

This is by far my favorite investment I've done to my home and I still smile.....every time I watch something.

I would highly recommend an A/T screen if you can swing it. Seymour screens are not that expensive (especially if you buy the seymour xD material and build the screen yourself.....like I did) and having the speakers behind the screen where they should be.......awesome! Having all three front speakers the same make for a really smooth sounding front stage.

I started off with a 130" screen because others were warning me about pushing the projector to its limit. After seeing how nice it looked at 130" I took the plunge, and further warnings, and built my now 153" screen and couldn't be happier.

Of course this is only my opinion. I am by no means an expert......I'm just an enthusiast. Oh yea I forgot, my wife was not very happy with my ambitions and rolled her eyes at every stage..........but when everything was completed, she loves our projector and our room as much as I do....maybe more. The only down side to this is............ now I have to watch Greys Anatomy and CSI and all that crap. I guess it turned out bitter sweet.
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post #10 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I have an Epson 8500Ub projected onto a Seymour A/T screen at 153" and sit 14-15' from the screen. The Seymour is 1.2??????? gain.

I believe the 5010 is brighter than the 8500Ub. Don't let others tell you it's too big........it's not.








To give perspective, I'm 6'4" and weigh 270Lb

This is by far my favorite investment I've done to my home and I still smile.....every time I watch something.

I would highly recommend an A/T screen if you can swing it. Seymour screens are not that expensive (especially if you buy the seymour xD material and build the screen yourself.....like I did) and having the speakers behind the screen where they should be.......awesome! Having all three front speakers the same make for a really smooth sounding front stage.

That looks great!

I like how you painted that area black! Really helps with reflections a lot better then I thought!

Whats A/T Screen? T=Tensioned?

Thank you very much for the photos.... btw, how far back are you projecting?

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
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post #11 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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While browsing around I ran into this...

CMRA's S-I-L-V-E-R solution starts here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859818

You sure did some crazy projects MississippiMan... now to read the rest of the damn thread which might take the rest of the week


Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead2k View Post

That looks great!

I like how you painted that area black! Really helps with reflections a lot better then I thought!

Whats A/T Screen? T=Tensioned?

Thank you very much for the photos.... btw, how far back are you projecting?

Thanks. It's actually a brown colour but yea it helps with the contrast and light leakage (reflections).

There is some reflection from the hardwood though but it doesn't really bother me nor anyone else watching.

A/T is 'acoustically transparent'. Having an acoustically transparent screen is absolutely AMAZING! Highly recommended. Seymour AV have very reasonably priced screens and they are an excellent company to deal with; Chris is awesome. I built my screen myself and I think I paid somewhere around $300 for the material shipped and built my screen wall (including the Seymore xD material) for under a grand. That wall that the screen is on is the screen wall that I'm talking about. It's actually a false wall built 3-4' out from the back wall (framed like a giant window) so the speakers can go behind the acoustically transparent screen and the brown wall is actually fabric wrapped around the framing......sorry, I'm rambling on.

http://seymourav.com/

My projector is 15' from the screen, same as the seating area. The projector is ceiling mounted above the couch......and no the fan isn't very noticeable.

Here's a picture of the screen back-lit. I've cleaned up behind the screen since I took the pictures and it now looks really cool.


You can see my old 130" screen painted black on the back wall.
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post #13 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 01:24 AM - Thread Starter
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After looking at your picture, I remember I have a lower ceiling at the left side of the room for vent or something.

Really wanted to fit 2 Subs in the front. And btw 2x 5400 LMS Ultra which is going to push the screen up 2' up (Future plan). I guess I should get this all figured out on some CAD work. I'm thinking of mounting the screen on a stand since the wall is freakin curved.

The room is going to be a nightmare. I'll get some photos up when I can borrow a friend's DSLR.

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
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I have a Seaton SubMersive HP behind my screen and will be getting the SubMersive XL when it's ready. It has dual 18" woofers and a 4000w-6000w amp and yes, it will go behind the screen. In the photo above, that's a SvS PC-13 ultra between the center and front right speaker.

Good luck on your project.
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post #15 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 06:13 AM
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crabalocker,

Very "Total immersion".capable. Big can be better if done correctly. And you had an advantage many just don't have with that "hidden room" behind. Shucks, you almost could have gone Rear projection back there!

But that Floor is getting in the way of perfection! The Black Shadowboxed area is 75% there...but the very proximity of the bottom of the screen to that glossy floor kinda give you another screen. A Black or Dark Brown Throw Rug, Anti-Skid type, and viola....no vestige of being in a room, in the Dark.

Bonus: Improved Contrast on screen during brighter content.

Should be an easy thing to test out a justify. Just smooch a dark Blanket under the screen and let "The Boss" see the difference. Funny how after the Wives come on Board, they gain official "First Mate" status. (...if indeed not Captain when they have something to watch... )

So basically, that's it. The rest is a great example of DIY Right. The Seymour material is an excellent alternative to the pricier Stewart / SMX offerings, and virtually performs just as good in every aspect....for less......and you went "Jetson's Wall TV" size.

What not to love?

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #16 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead2k View Post

Thank you for your very detailed response MM.

I have question though :P
1. What Is considered midthrow?

Projectors that have Zoom capability all have a defined range in which they can be set furthest back or closer in and achieve a maximum / Minimum sized image.

The Epsons and Pannys both have the largest span of distance between those referenced points...the Epson's taking the Top Honors.

Examples:

Epson 5010 w/150" Screen.
Available Throw Distance span to achieve Image size: 14'-7" to 33'-1" (...over 15' !!!)
Midthrow: 19'-11"
Foot Lamberts at all three Throw points:
14'-7" 23fls .... 19'-11 14fls .... 31'-3" 9fls

Epson 6010 w/150" Screen
Available Throw Distance span to achieve Image size: 14'-9" to 31'-5" (...over 15' !!!)

Midthrow: 20'-1"
Foot Lamberts at all three Throw points:
14'-7" 36fls .... 19'-11 22fls .... 31'-3" 14fls

Most DLPs have " 2-3' " at most, with some designed to be "long Throw" and some short Throw" PJs to compensate.

But with DLPs, the far shorter Zoom length means there is almost no difference in Foot Lambert specifications when moving "in or out" from Mid Throw.

Obviously, that's not the case with the 5010 / 6010

But "Mid Throw" is a Industry standard that was set years ago, because:

A. At the extreme "Front End", a distortion of the image at the edges, and a loss of brightness at the edges often occurs because of the Lens's own fallibleness in design/Mfg. Also, as in most excessively Zoomed imagery, Pixelation or Artifacts become more apparent.

B. At the "Far End" it's all about the loss of Luminosity over the distance. In a LCD, that can be very significant.

1080p resolution and Mega-contrast PJs with 2000+ Lumen Light Engines have set aside most concerns, but PJ's Lens Focal length/Zoom specs are still mightily important in many cases, and can often restrict installation / screen size choices.

My general rule of thumb is if I got Lumens, I'm a'gonna use 'em...not waste 'em. So I usually mount my PJs at 10-15% above Minimum Throw. I like the brighter, contrasty Epsons because if that's not possible, Mid Throw performance is still well within my accepted limitations, and under most circumstances, whatever size screen I want...or is desired, can be accommodated. In the long run, being able to effectively color calibrate a PJ, and utilize it's low lamp mode to further improve Contrast...all without losing the dynamics of a image, is what real front projection performance is all about.

What was the question again...?

Quote:


2. Is blackout cloth a smooth material?

White/White Opaque BOC has a Cloth Weave side and a smooth Vinyl Coated side. The latter is what is used most often, primed, sanded, then sprayed.

Quote:


DIY route looks very attractive right now.

Tends to, especially when there is a couple $grand$ worth of difference.

Quote:


Looking in to materials atm...

Screen Materials

1. Screen
http://www.carlofet.com/diy-projecto...-material.html
2. ??? wood type ???
3. ??? tension required ???
4. ??? Paint recipe for 1.3+ gain that yields great results to your standard MM ???
5. ??? Reliable equipment that YOU trust ???
6. Velvet http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1387541

Let me invite you to jump over the DIY Screens, where a DIY Screen build won't clutter up this PJ dedicated Forum. Just author a new Thread and they will come....to help you build it.


Quote:


Just so you know... My carpentry skills are ZERO.

90% of wannabee DIY'ers come in saying the same thing. If DIY Screen making was really all the difficult, the Forum for it wouldn't exist. But it's not, and the end results more than justify the means.

Don't worry, we'll have your back....iffin' you let us get behind you that is.

Quote:


I have made up my mind to paint the room at the lower floor with a dark grey/black gold theme. I will be looking at carpets next week, I got to work weekdays =/

I'm going to get a crash course on CAD so I can draw you guys out something.

Focus.....FOCUS! Don't get too far into "design" unless the room, and your needs / expectations demand it. Be it Purchased or FIY, projects like this where someone new delves too deep too fast/soon often result in confusion and "brain-dead" symptoms.

That said, in a new DIY Screen Thread (...and perhaps a Sister Thread in Dedicated Theater Design & Construction...) you can publish specific questions and get specific answers. General queries usually bring general responses that range all over the Map, and while a great many are valid, and some even spectacular, you have to get really fortunate to have one match up with your criteria exactly. If not, information overload is a very real danger. Trust me on that. I've seen it happen time upon time. It's never a pretty sight, ad decisions made in frustration lead to dissatisfaction.

Quote:


But I'm just assuming to get the same brightness and performance I would have to probably have to go on to super bright triple DLPs

$$$$

Quote:


. JVCs don't seems to have the lumen output, and neither does Sony. Maybe the BENQ DLP, however, I'm worried about rainbow for more sensitive viewers.

Right, Right, and your right to be concerned about RBE. However with the newest 5-6 segment or Dual Color Wheels in a few Single Chip 1080p DLPs, that's getting to be less of a concern as we go forward. But there is still that darn 'ol Throw limitation. It sucks the BIG BONE.

Quote:


I also just recently noticed people people have tried using 2 projectors, doing so can also improve contrast and black levels. Off course I know its not that simple to just throw it together. But I just want to consider all options and understand everything.
I ran into the 4k double projector thread O.O

You don't need two PJs. Even on Low Lamp, a well calibrated PJ like the 6010 will produce Interstellar Black levels and brilliant Whites & Color simultaneously on a 150" diagonal 1.3 gain screen

Quote:


I love scalability if possible. All I need to do i save a bit more since DIY would save $$

Outboard Processing gear becomes a lot more of a possibility if you have some spare cheese left to dole out.

Quote:


I'm still gathering info.
Let me know about the paints MM

Post a Thread...or PM me. Check my AVS Profile "Statistics" for my various Threads for a purposefully directed DIY Primer. I can see how close to a 5010's price I can nab a 6010 for and PM you as well.

Exciting stuff, this "Big Picture" is.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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Remember all these large screens are not with the Epson in best picture quality mode, you have to put it in its brighter modes. That is acceptable to some and not others. The example of a 187" 2.35 screen/ 200" 16:9 screen with a 1.3 gain screen and 22ft/l requires 1500/ 2000 lumens to achieve respectively. No one has measured the Epson that high except in its brighter less accurate modes.

I'm not saying it is a bad solution but pick your tradeoffs. An AT (acoustically transparent) screen is a good solution for audio. There are some DIY solutions for that but in your first post you were looking at an electric screen. Have you decided against the electric screen?

There are AT solutions for electric screens but the prices are considerably higher than the Grandview you were considering.
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post #18 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Remember all these large screens are not with the Epson in best picture quality mode, you have to put it in its brighter modes. That is acceptable to some and not others.

There are AT solutions for electric screens but the prices are considerably higher than the Grandview you were considering.

My Epson is in best mode and is not washed-out, dim etc. etc. so 150" can and is being done in best mode.......at night anyhow or in low light. Yes, during the day or with all the lights on the projector is in a brighter mode but for movies or tv shows at night, the projector is in best mode.

Seymour electric A/T screen is about $700 more than the Grandview.
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post #19 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

crabalocker,

Very "Total immersion".capable. Big can be better if done correctly. And you had an advantage many just don't have with that "hidden room" behind. Shucks, you almost could have gone Rear projection back there!

But that Floor is getting in the way of perfection! The Black Shadowboxed area is 75% there...but the very proximity of the bottom of the screen to that glossy floor kinda give you another screen. A Black or Dark Brown Throw Rug, Anti-Skid type, and viola....no vestige of being in a room, in the Dark.

Bonus: Improved Contrast on screen during brighter content.

Should be an easy thing to test out a justify. Just smooch a dark Blanket under the screen and let "The Boss" see the difference. Funny how after the Wives come on Board, they gain official "First Mate" status. (...if indeed not Captain when they have something to watch... )

I built the false or second wall and would recommend that route if the room is able to sacrifice 4 feet. The cost was very minimal, I paid under a grand for material and the wall construction......still cheaper than a fixed frame screen.

If I were to do it again though, I would buy a fixed frame and float it out in front attached with hooks and wires to the floor and ceiling.

I know the floor reflection looks bad but it's not really that distracting while watching. I know the benefits would be noticed...instantly, but two problems /issues.

1st, the wife likes the way it is now and WILL not have anything in front and

2nd if I put a black cloth down and notice the greatly improved quality to the viewing experience and then HAD to remove it.....then I'm sure I would notice the reflections and that would really start to drive me nuts.

crackhead2k, seeing someone else starting down this path of creating the 'home theater experience' brings back all the excitement I felt whilst deciding and then implementing my plan. My first screen was a painted screen, Cream & Sugar Mix it was called, and it looked awesome too. Don't let anyone tell you that paint doesn't look nearly as good as a screen 'cause they would be false. People like MississippiMan, Harpmaker (home theater shack) and others have worked hard to perfect their mixes and have come up with tremendous looking screens. I will tell you......those screens look as good as any projection screen and can be made at a very very reasonable price. Good luck and I can't wait to see what you end up doing with your room.

edit:
I forgot, I only went 130" with my first screen because the paint mix I used was a .8 or .9 gain mix. I went 150" with the Seymour because it has a 1.2 gain
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post #20 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

1st, the wife likes the way it is now and WILL not have anything in front and

2nd if I put a black cloth down and notice the greatly improved quality to the viewing experience and then HAD to remove it.....then I'm sure I would notice the reflections and that would really start to drive me nuts.

All too true. But now you "know" what's out there....waiting. Can you feel the tug...the urge...dare you act?

Oh jeepers, just toss that blanket (...and cushions...) down there, add a bottle of Merlot, play a Hawaiian Scenery DVD, and bend that women to your will.

While she's a'sippin' say, "Hey! Look at that! I wonder what it would be like if the reflections were always all gone? Maybe like a huge image just a'floatin' in space....? Waddya think, Honey Bunch?"

That outta do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

crackhead2k, seeing someone else starting down this path of creating the 'home theater experience' brings back all the excitement I felt whilst deciding and then implementing my plan. My first screen was a painted screen, Cream & Sugar Mix it was called, and it looked awesome too. Don't let anyone tell you that paint doesn't look nearly as good as a screen 'cause they would be false. People like MississippiMan, Harpmaker (home theater shack) and others have worked hard to perfect their mixes and have come up with tremendous looking screens. I will tell you......those screens look as good as any projection screen and can be made at a very very reasonable price. Good luck and I can't wait to see what you end up doing with your room.


I'd listen to this Guy crackhead2k.......if I were you. That's what I'd do.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #21 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Oh jeepers, just toss that blanket (...and cushions...) down there, add a bottle of Merlot, play a Hawaiian Scenery DVD, and bend that women to your will.

Even if nothing changes.......sounds like a win win for me ahh I mean......... for her
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post #22 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the response guys!

I have always been a DIY guy though I built all my computers :P and somehow have 8 now 0.o....

Now its going to be DIY Screen and later its going to be DIY subs.

I guess it is the right choice to go with the Epsons for this build.
But for Ambient light performance 2 projectors is a requirement?

Quote:


I built the false or second wall and would recommend that route if the room is able to sacrifice 4 feet. The cost was very minimal, I paid under a grand for material and the wall construction......still cheaper than a fixed frame screen.

If I were to do it again though, I would buy a fixed frame and float it out in front attached with hooks and wires to the floor and ceiling.

I know the floor reflection looks bad but it's not really that distracting while watching. I know the benefits would be noticed...instantly, but two problems /issues.

1st, the wife likes the way it is now and WILL not have anything in front and

2nd if I put a black cloth down and notice the greatly improved quality to the viewing experience and then HAD to remove it.....then I'm sure I would notice the reflections and that would really start to drive me nuts.

crackhead2k, seeing someone else starting down this path of creating the 'home theater experience' brings back all the excitement I felt whilst deciding and then implementing my plan. My first screen was a painted screen, Cream & Sugar Mix it was called, and it looked awesome too. Don't let anyone tell you that paint doesn't look nearly as good as a screen 'cause they would be false. People like MississippiMan, Harpmaker (home theater shack) and others have worked hard to perfect their mixes and have come up with tremendous looking screens. I will tell you......those screens look as good as any projection screen and can be made at a very very reasonable price. Good luck and I can't wait to see what you end up doing with your room.

The room is 17' long. 2 doors, one on the short end, and the other on the side wall. False wall is not an option...
Fixed screen would have to be on a stand since my wall is curved. Also allows me to move it around If I want to try something.

So I think my priorities should be to...

1. Get projector somewhere for cheap.. maybe when I head down to the states in the summer. I'm in Canada btw
2. Paint wall dark grey, maybe pattern to improve contrast. My walls are an ugly white with marks on it.
3. And for now research and build screen and borrow a friend's projector.
-----------------
Does paint crack on rolled up versions for DIY screens?

It is possible for me to throw a screen on the other side of the room were there's a door if it can be retracted.

I am considering 6010 atm... but couldn't find any online store that sells atm.

I will check back on this thread tonight got work =D

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
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Quote:


Now its going to be DIY Screen and later its going to be DIY subs.

Do -it - yourself approach is always fun.

Quote:


I guess it is the right choice to go with the Epsons for this build.
But for Ambient light performance 2 projectors is a requirement?

Epson have some really nice projectors but quality control issues are always a complaint but their customer service makes up for this. Their customer service is top-notch.

2 projectors? no, the projector has different settings. A best mode which has a lower lumen output but the best overall blacks and picture. It also has other settings like dynamic, living-room etc etc that have a greater lumen output but crushes the blacks a bit (or a lot) and such, but still looks very nice in ambient light.

Quote:


The room is 17' long. 2 doors, one on the short end, and the other on the side wall. False wall is not an option...
Fixed screen would have to be on a stand since my wall is curved. Also allows me to move it around If I want to try something.

Does paint crack on rolled up versions for DIY screens?

It is possible for me to throw a screen on the other side of the room were there's a door if it can be retracted.

You have unlimited options if you are creative enough. Look through some build threads and you'll get a ton of Ideas.

There are rolled up or retractable painted DIY screens? Now that does sound cool.

Where in Canada? I live north of Toronto.
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post #24 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Im 30 min from vancouver.

And i mean i wish there were rolled up / retractable screens.

Sent from samsung galaxy.

Equipment List: Preamp/Processor: Sherbourn PT-7030 [] Speakers: Energy RC-70[] Amplifier: Parasound A21[] Projector: Epson 5020ub [] Screen: Elunevision Reference 150"
PC/HTPC: Intel Q6600 [] GTX670 [] 4 GB Ram [] Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Cabling: Speaker Cable: BlueJeansCable 10 AWG [] Interconnects: HDMI - Redmere Cable 50 ft
Audio Cable: XLR - From Orange County Speaker - 50ft
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post #25 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackhead2k View Post

Im 30 min from vancouver.

And i mean i wish there were rolled up / retractable screens.

Sent from samsung galaxy.

Gee whiz.....I hobbknob with the crazies over on Vancouver, Island whenever I can. The "Duncan Showroom" in Duncan has a big Parkland Screen I put in back in 2003.

I wasn't kidding about being able to get great pricing on the 5010...and I always have some degree of immediate availability.

Ya know sumpthin'....you need someone to get you a 5010 unit in the lower 48, and drive it up to you....maybe even make up & paint a screen for you.

Check around....I'm sure there is someone willing to do it.

(Hey...I just got a Samsung Galaxy S ll, Epic 4G Touch ....Great Phone!)

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #26 of 46 Old 02-20-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Projectors that have Zoom capability all have a defined range in which they can be set furthest back or closer in and achieve a maximum / Minimum sized image.

The Epsons and Pannys both have the largest span of distance between those referenced points...the Epson's taking the Top Honors.

Examples:

Epson 5010 w/150" Screen.
Available Throw Distance span to achieve Image size: 14'-7" to 33'-1" (...over 15' !!!)
Midthrow: 19'-11"
Foot Lamberts at all three Throw points:
14'-7" 23fls .... 19'-11 14fls .... 31'-3" 9fls

Epson 6010 w/150" Screen
Available Throw Distance span to achieve Image size: 14'-9" to 31'-5" (...over 15' !!!)

Midthrow: 20'-1"
Foot Lamberts at all three Throw points:
14'-7" 36fls .... 19'-11 22fls .... 31'-3" 14fls

Most DLPs have " 2-3' " at most, with some designed to be "long Throw" and some short Throw" PJs to compensate.

But with DLPs, the far shorter Zoom length means there is almost no difference in Foot Lambert specifications when moving "in or out" from Mid Throw.

Obviously, that's not the case with the 5010 / 6010

But "Mid Throw" is a Industry standard that was set years ago, because:

A. At the extreme "Front End", a distortion of the image at the edges, and a loss of brightness at the edges often occurs because of the Lens's own fallibleness in design/Mfg. Also, as in most excessively Zoomed imagery, Pixelation or Artifacts become more apparent.

B. At the "Far End" it's all about the loss of Luminosity over the distance. In a LCD, that can be very significant.

1080p resolution and Mega-contrast PJs with 2000+ Lumen Light Engines have set aside most concerns, but PJ's Lens Focal length/Zoom specs are still mightily important in many cases, and can often restrict installation / screen size choices.

My general rule of thumb is if I got Lumens, I'm a'gonna use 'em...not waste 'em. So I usually mount my PJs at 10-15% above Minimum Throw. I like the brighter, contrasty Epsons because if that's not possible, Mid Throw performance is still well within my accepted limitations, and under most circumstances, whatever size screen I want...or is desired, can be accommodated. In the long run, being able to effectively color calibrate a PJ, and utilize it's low lamp mode to further improve Contrast...all without losing the dynamics of a image, is what real front projection performance is all about.

What was the question again...?



White/White Opaque BOC has a Cloth Weave side and a smooth Vinyl Coated side. The latter is what is used most often, primed, sanded, then sprayed.



Tends to, especially when there is a couple $grand$ worth of difference.



Let me invite you to jump over the DIY Screens, where a DIY Screen build won't clutter up this PJ dedicated Forum. Just author a new Thread and they will come....to help you build it.




90% of wannabee DIY'ers come in saying the same thing. If DIY Screen making was really all the difficult, the Forum for it wouldn't exist. But it's not, and the end results more than justify the means.

Don't worry, we'll have your back....iffin' you let us get behind you that is.



Focus.....FOCUS! Don't get too far into "design" unless the room, and your needs / expectations demand it. Be it Purchased or FIY, projects like this where someone new delves too deep too fast/soon often result in confusion and "brain-dead" symptoms.

That said, in a new DIY Screen Thread (...and perhaps a Sister Thread in Dedicated Theater Design & Construction...) you can publish specific questions and get specific answers. General queries usually bring general responses that range all over the Map, and while a great many are valid, and some even spectacular, you have to get really fortunate to have one match up with your criteria exactly. If not, information overload is a very real danger. Trust me on that. I've seen it happen time upon time. It's never a pretty sight, ad decisions made in frustration lead to dissatisfaction.



$$$$



Right, Right, and your right to be concerned about RBE. However with the newest 5-6 segment or Dual Color Wheels in a few Single Chip 1080p DLPs, that's getting to be less of a concern as we go forward. But there is still that darn 'ol Throw limitation. It sucks the BIG BONE.



You don't need two PJs. Even on Low Lamp, a well calibrated PJ like the 6010 will produce Interstellar Black levels and brilliant Whites & Color simultaneously on a 150" diagonal 1.3 gain screen



Outboard Processing gear becomes a lot more of a possibility if you have some spare cheese left to dole out.



Post a Thread...or PM me. Check my AVS Profile "Statistics" for my various Threads for a purposefully directed DIY Primer. I can see how close to a 5010's price I can nab a 6010 for and PM you as well.

Exciting stuff, this "Big Picture" is.

What's with the different ratings on the 5010 and the 6010. I thought they were basically the same? I planned on a 5010 which will be mounted exactly @ midthrow close to 19' from a proposed 106 - 110" screen yet to be determined. Would the 6010 be that much better for my application in a somewhat controlled living room with mustard walls and a white ceiling? Also screen options gain wise?
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post #27 of 46 Old 02-21-2012, 04:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

My Epson is in best mode and is not washed-out, dim etc. etc. so 150" can and is being done in best mode.......at night anyhow or in low light. Yes, during the day or with all the lights on the projector is in a brighter mode but for movies or tv shows at night, the projector is in best mode.

Seymour electric A/T screen is about $700 more than the Grandview.

With a new a new bulb you will have the minimum reference ft/l on a 150" screen in best mode and possible slightly more depending on Pj placement. When we design a system we like the viewer to enjoy their projector throughout its lifespan. You may have to change your bulb early or use a brighter mode as your bulb ages to achieve that same 'pop'. There is nothing wrong with this, I just make the poster aware of the tradeoffs. We have many customers that change their bulbs early and some of the older projectors don't last anywhere near as long the the current PJs.

My comments weren't directed at you but someone that is saying they are getting 22ft/l on a 200" 1.3 gain screen. I'm sorry but that is not possible in best mode. If you calculate the lumens required to achieve that, it would require 2000 lumens and not even with a great bulb at the shortest end of the zoom no one is measuring even close to 1/2 that in best mode. In fairness he never stated it was in best mode.

I've been doing this for over 15 years and longer as an enthusiast as I have had CRT projectors myself and have been an ISF calibrator since 1999 with equipment that is more than $30,000. Times have never been better with the brightness of todays projectors and larger screen sizes are possible at reasonable costs.

I commend you for doing an AT screen. It really is the best solution for good audio with large screens. Audio tends to suffer in many of these systems with large screens and until you do an AT screen you might not know how much of a difference it really is.
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post #28 of 46 Old 02-21-2012, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
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You may have to change your bulb early or use a brighter mode as your bulb ages to achieve that same 'pop'.

This is probably very true.

I have had early bulb failures but this was more of a quality control issue with Epson lamps and the bulbs 'Made IN China'. Twice they burnt out at around 1000 hours.

The One replacement bulb I got that worked really well till 1800 hours was 'Made In Japan' but I had projector issues, not related to the bulb, and received a replacement projector but unfortunately it had a 'Made In China' bulb inside. It died at 800 hours. Epson sent me a bulb, again, but it was a 'Made In China' bulb. Coming up to 800 hours again, I'm waiting for it to go.

All lamp replacements were warrantied at zero cost to me. I had a total of 3600 or so hours on the projector and have yet to pay for a bulb. Now that my warranty has run out, I may start to get a bit frustrated with the 'Made In China' bulbs at $300 a pop.

I think the tsunami that happened in Japan is responsible for the shortage of bulbs from Japan.

So there you go, Epson has a bit of a quality control issue but their customer service is really good. One phone call, two days later and you're back up and running.

I think the bulbs 'Made In Japan' should last at least 1800-2000 hours.
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post #29 of 46 Old 02-21-2012, 11:31 AM
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PJC uses somewhat random numbers in their calculator, just look at their Epson 3010 numbers. Anyhow, they even say that they are using MFR supplied numbers, but you never know which set of numbers they base it on. I use averaged reviewer numbers topped off with percentile averaging from multiple sources of measurements.

Best mode numbers is what screen size choices should be based on in most cases, unless someone prefer the larger size regardless of the disadvantages (3D being too dim, etc...). There is no evidence that I have seen which leads me to believe the 6010 is any brighter than the 5010. It is the same lamp wattage, same projector design, same parts, etc...


Quick and Easy Shelf Mount Method for both one projector or dual stacks

Web Calculator v023 & v025
- Quick Peak at the new upcoming calculator
**Current Projector Calculator** -- http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com

Coder's Top Projector Picks of 2012 --http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....

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post #30 of 46 Old 02-21-2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

PJC uses somewhat random numbers in their calculator, just look at their Epson 3010 numbers. Anyhow, they even say that they are using MFR supplied numbers, but you never know which set of numbers they base it on. I use averaged reviewer numbers topped off with percentile averaging from multiple sources of measurements.

Best mode numbers is what screen size choices should be based on in most cases, unless someone prefer the larger size regardless of the disadvantages (3D being too dim, etc...). There is no evidence that I have seen which leads me to believe the 6010 is any brighter than the 5010. It is the same lamp wattage, same projector design, same parts, etc...

Didn't figure the 6010 could offer that much more if any. I want to mount this in a space about 6" above the top of the screen and close to dead center horizontally. With a 19' throw would that be fine. Also would one od the Vapex electric tension screens work good for this at a 1.1 gain? I will spend more if I get that much more in return, but I will eventually move this to another room where I can go bigger than the 106" I have room for now.
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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