Possible to get good blacks and spending under $3k - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 03-18-2012, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys, i've been doing some research on a projector for my roommate (he is buying a house and is overseas atm), and it seems that pretty much anything shy of the Epson 9700UB or JVC HD250 / RS40, etc, is going to have pretty crap black levels.

We watch a lot of dark movies, action movies, stuff like aliens, sci fi movies/tv shows, etc. So black levels are very important.

Ive found the JVC online for well under $3k, but JVC does not authorize internet sales so anything you buy has no warranty.

Ive read the Epson 9700 UB is a good projector with almost as good blacks as the JVC, but i can't seem to find it online from a reputable website

I was hoping someone could potentially suggest some other projectors that might fits his needs?

Needs:
Would *really* like to keep it under 3k, preferrably in the 2200-2500 range
Good (doesnt have to be awesome, but not crap) black levels
1080p
not 3d
Not horrible lag for gaming

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post #2 of 16 Old 03-18-2012, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

Hi guys, i've been doing some research on a projector for my roommate (he is buying a house and is overseas atm), and it seems that pretty much anything shy of the Epson 9700UB or JVC HD250 / RS40, etc, is going to have pretty crap black levels.

We watch a lot of dark movies, action movies, stuff like aliens, sci fi movies/tv shows, etc. So black levels are very important.

Ive found the JVC online for well under $3k, but JVC does not authorize internet sales so anything you buy has no warranty.

Ive read the Epson 9700 UB is a good projector with almost as good blacks as the JVC, but i can't seem to find it online from a reputable website

I was hoping someone could potentially suggest some other projectors that might fits his needs?

Needs:
Would *really* like to keep it under 3k, preferrably in the 2200-2500 range
Good (doesnt have to be awesome, but not crap) black levels
1080p
not 3d
Not horrible lag for gaming

The Epson 5010 might be what you are looking for. There was a sale on the RS40 for about $1700 but I think they are not available anymore. Or the JVC RS45 might be a better if you watch majority movies
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post #3 of 16 Old 03-19-2012, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

The Epson 5010 might be what you are looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

not 3d
Not horrible lag for gaming

Based on his requirement, obviously not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

Ive read the Epson 9700 UB is a good projector with almost as good blacks as the JVC, but i can't seem to find it online from a reputable website

Unfortunately, the 8700UB/9700UB have been discontinued in favor of Epson's new 3D models. If you're looking to pick one up (as I am), you'll have to look to the pre-owned market.
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post #4 of 16 Old 03-19-2012, 05:13 AM
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The Sony hw30 is the only NEW one with almost NO LAG and good blacks, but it's just a tad bit over 3k I think, but it does come with free 3d glasses I believe (or it used to).



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post #5 of 16 Old 03-19-2012, 10:21 AM
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The 8700UB (9700UB) does not have low input lag so it does not fit the bill as far as gaming is concerned. That is the primary reason I am selling mine. The 5010 is a little worse but not by much. If you want good gaming, good blacks, and you don't want to pay for 3D look for the Panasonic PT-AE4000 or the Sony VPL-HW20 (also called VPL-VWPRO.) I'm not sure if you can find the HW20 for under $3k but if you do it is supposed to be an amazing machine. The PT-AE4000 fits the criteria described. If you want fairly good black levels you can also look at the W6000. It is a ultra-high contrast projector but it can't really touch the 8700UB/5010 black levels. It has the sharpness you would expect from a single-chip DLP, motion is good, and the input lag is good.

The 3D projectors that took the place of these mentioned projectors are quite a bit more expensive. If you don't want 3D you will be saving yourself a good bit by looking at the non-3d versions of these projectors. The HW30 is out of the price range by more than a little imo. I have not found it anywhere near the borderline of the $3k range. The PT-AE7000 would work for you just as well as the AE4000 and it might even be an improvement due to the new D9 panels which are faster. That is probably the only thing that will really be noticeable as far as the stated uses go though. The W7000 seems to have gone in the wrong direction on this front. The input lag is not as good as the Panasonic but not as bad as the Epson. The BenQ has too many quirks to consider it when the Panasonic is sporting the better input lag. Plus, if you decide to use frame interpolation for whatever reason the Panasonic introduces the least amount of additional input lag.

Good luck in your search for the right projector. I have purchased a few projectors in the past and it was never so difficult, as a gamer, to find the right one as it seems to be now. It does not appear to be high on the priority list during the design of these machines.
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post #6 of 16 Old 03-19-2012, 12:58 PM
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I did a similar search...ended up with a 5010/6010. Blacks are KILLER INDEED.

To Me - gaming lag is ok...not perfect, but for what I do...no problems.

Each person has a different level of tolerance...so best of luck!


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post #7 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 03:07 AM - Thread Starter
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So, if we were to ammend the needs and say "3d is ok, but wouldnt ever use it" and throw out the input lag issue, would that open up a lot of options?

If im pretty much SOL on the input lag front, we can always use the 50" panny plasma that we are currently using which will go in the living room upstairs. So its not the end of the world if we can't game on the projector. I just thought being able to play Forza3 and such on 120" screen would be pretty kickass.

If i had to put a gun to my head and pick whats most important it would probably be in this order:

1. 1080p (we use HTPC a LOT so this is non negotiable)
2. Sub 3k price range
3. Excellent overall picture quality/colors
4. Good Black Levels

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post #8 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 05:23 AM
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5010 - I game on mine a bit and like I said not terrible.

Your items 1-4 it nails...

I am honestly not trying to be biased, but I simply did the same exact search 3 months ago...it takes power to light up a 120" screen...you gotta have something with some juice behind it.

Others will chime in for sure!


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post #9 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

So, if we were to ammend the needs and say "3d is ok, but wouldnt ever use it" and throw out the input lag issue, would that open up a lot of options?

If im pretty much SOL on the input lag front, we can always use the 50" panny plasma that we are currently using which will go in the living room upstairs. So its not the end of the world if we can't game on the projector. I just thought being able to play Forza3 and such on 120" screen would be pretty kickass.

If i had to put a gun to my head and pick whats most important it would probably be in this order:

1. 1080p (we use HTPC a LOT so this is non negotiable)
2. Sub 3k price range
3. Excellent overall picture quality/colors
4. Good Black Levels


The JVC RS45 will give you all of that, except the good black levels. It's more like Reference black levels. These projectors truly set themselves apart in that area. Until you experience it at home, you'll have no idea what you've been missing. I'm a big sci-fi nut. I've never seen another projector display those types of movies/TV shows like a JVC..bar none.

I also use a HTPC and a 120" screen. The RS45 is more than bright enough to handle it. To get any appreciable gains in contrast you'd have to buy one of the much higher end JVCs. Nothing else will compare in this price range, so don't kid yourself.
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post #10 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Joesyah View Post

The JVC RS45 will give you all of that, except the good black levels. It's more like Reference black levels. These projectors truly set themselves apart in that area. Until you experience it at home, you'll have no idea what you've been missing. I'm a big sci-fi nut. I've never seen another projector display those types of movies/TV shows like a JVC..bar none.

I also use a HTPC and a 120" screen. The RS45 is more than bright enough to handle it. To get any appreciable gains in contrast you'd have to buy one of the much higher end JVCs. Nothing else will compare in this price range, so don't kid yourself.

Dang, just reviewed this unit...wonder why this didn't make my short list. OH WELL....I agree, this unit seems to ROCK!


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post #11 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 07:04 AM
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Dang, just reviewed this unit...wonder why this didn't make my short list. OH WELL....I agree, this unit seems to ROCK!

You used one at home? Or saw it in a store?
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post #12 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 07:10 AM
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You used one at home? Or saw it in a store?

No...I honestly never even KNEW this was an option for me...reviewing the specs on line, looks like it would have met my needs.


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post #13 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 07:20 AM
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No...I honestly never even KNEW this was an option for me...reviewing the specs on line, looks like it would have met my needs.

Oh Ok I gotcha now. It's not as bright as your Epson. Nor will it do 3D as good as your Epson. But for movie viewing I think you'd be hard pressed to do any better in this price range. The Sony VW30 is another nice unit in this range. It can't match the RS45 on its best day in that area.

Once you see how sci-fi movies look without an iris dimming down the lighter parts of scenes, such as candles, lanterns and the sides of a person's face where the light hits.. It will be difficult not to notice it when it happens.
2D night scenes become three dimensional on the JVC, where it looks flat on just about anything else.
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post #14 of 16 Old 03-20-2012, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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how does the rs45 compare to the HD250?

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post #15 of 16 Old 03-21-2012, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

how does the rs45 compare to the HD250?

The RS45 has a 220 watt lamp. The HD250 has a 200 watt lamp. The RS45 has a 15 step aperture. The HD250 has 3 step aperture. The RS45 has zoom memory allowing 2.35 viewing. The HD250 requires a anamorphic lens and will have to be engaged manually to perform the same task. The HD250 has native contrast up to 25,000:1. The RS45 is up to 50,000:1. The RS45 is 3D capable.The HD250 is not.

The RS45 is brighter with deeper black/contrast. The HD250 is no slouch. It still has higher native than any other projector besides its higher end siblings.
The RS45 weighs nearly 10 lbs more than the HD250.
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post #16 of 16 Old 03-21-2012, 03:42 AM
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If you can fit 2 projectors in your setup, you can still keep it under $3000 and get the best of all worlds. I would try to buy an Epson 8700ub or a JVC HD250 (refurb is much preferable over used). These projectors can be hard to find in the refurb market though.

You can then find a Viewsonic Pro8200 sometimes for as low as $720 at newegg, it has VERY little gaming lag, some have tested it around 15ms to 20ms, probably the lowest of almost every projector. It also is extremely bright and it is almost as sharp as my $3000 JVC (it's pretty close).

It does exceptional in all the areas that more expensive projectors fail at (brightness, low RBE, almost no gaming lag), so you pair it up with another projector and use the Epson or JVC for movies, and the Viewsonic for everything else. It also has dirt cheap operational costs ($225 for a 6000 hour rated lamp). That way you keep the lamp hours low on the Epson and JVC (which means it will be easier to use on a large screen since your lamp will stay brighter longer), and you put hours on the Viewsonic.

Many people would be surprised how well the Viewsonic does against the JVC for PQ except in dark scenes obviously, but the Viewsonic has Dark Chip 3 and better blacks than most other projectors under $1000 (only 8350 and Mits hc4000 beat it in blacks significantly).



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