LCD vs. DLP Projectors - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I may be missing it and, if so, please point me to the thread, but I was looking for some pointers in determiing whether to go LCD or DLP for a projector. What are the advantages/disadvantages? I did a google search but that wasnt really all that helpful. Was wondering for those that acutally buy this stuff what the thoughts are. Why would someone buy an LCD over a DLP or vice versa? Costs?
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:53 AM
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Try these two articles...

http://www.projectorreviews.com/advi...nbowEffect.php

http://www.projectorreviews.com/advi...DoorEffect.php

So much media, so little time...

 

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post #3 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 10:45 AM
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Here's a fairly recent comparison (2009): http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_comparison.htm

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post #4 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 01:42 PM
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DLP's have a higher pixel fill ratio which means they produce a smoother and more-film like image, and they are also sharper, so smoother and sharper is a big plus. Newer LCOS projectors like the JVC RS-45 also have these same general DLP attributes. So some modern LCOS projectors like the JVC's get very close to DLP in sharpness and have an even high pixel fill, the sharpness is so close you cannot see the different unless you are reading text from an HTPC. However, vs. the LCD's I have seen, you need to get lucky and get convergence for them to be as sharp.

Most DLP's are better than most LCD's, the downside of DLP is really just if you are sensitive to rainbows and the fact that the black levels are not as good as the Epson 8700ub or 5010. Most DLP's can compete with the other LCD's for black levels though, the Epson is just ahead in that area.

I would look at specific attributes and decide that way first, rather than base it on a tech choice.

The Benq w7000 is what I'd buy if I were looking to buy a DLP, or a Runco in the higher end (problem with Runco's is they are just too expensive for what you get).


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post #5 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Benq w7000 is what I'd buy if I were looking to buy a DLP, or a Runco in the higher end (problem with Runco's is they are just too expensive for what you get).

That's not entirely true. The LS-1 and the LS-3 are fantastic deals at their price point. They both use the larger DMD which will give you higher contrast and a much sharper picture versus the smaller .65" DMD. They also have the best dynamic irises in the business. They have interchangeable lenses to accommodate various setup scenarios. You also get them factory calibrated to D65 which is a HUGE plus to someone who has no idea on how to calibrate correctly. There are tons of other things to justify the price like build quality, lens quality, dealer support to answer any question you have and a resource for warranty information and someone to install it for you correctly if you need help. The extra cost goes a long way in a much more enjoyable experience with your projector.

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post #6 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 01:59 PM
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For most of us in these forums, installation and warranty resources aren't as valuable as the general population, that's why we come here. The chip size is not the main thing that affects the sharpness. Sharpness is a culmination of multiple things, the method the MFR uses in assembling the lens as related to the throw distance affects the sharpness. That's why the Benq w6000/w7000 is so much sharper than the competing units in its price range, it's mainly the way they setup the throw factors and assembled the optics. There is an entire whitepaper from TI if you want to read about it. I don't know how can you get much sharper than the Benq w7000 other than a tad better focus uniformity on the outer edge, seriously though at the Benq's sharpness level sharpness is the last attribute I'd use to decide on a projector.

There are reasons to buy a more expensive DLP, but sharpness isn't one of them, not vs. the Benq anyways, it's just too sharp that there is not any difference by eye in video, and even if you compared a Runco side-by-side to the Benq, the Runco would not look sharper enough (if at all) even in HTPC text to add any value. Better black levels and a better IRIS are good reasons to buy a more expensive DLP.


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If you use the smaller DMD you need to have a much better lens to get similar sharpness to the larger DMD. I'm sure you've seen this article floating around:

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

It compared the MTF of the Optoma 8200 and from what I've read the lens it uses is pretty decent. It uses the smaller DMD and is a tad sharper than the JVC RS20. Then you can see what the 8150 looks like with the larger DMD, which should look very similar to the LS-1 and 3 seeing how they're practically the same projector.

Don't be so quick to say there isn't much of a difference when there is.

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post #8 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:10 PM
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What does MTF of the Optoma have to do with the Benq.
Read the whitepaper from TI, I don't want to argue. The Benq's design of the longer min throw is mainly why it's sharper. The Optoma isn't as sharp as the Benq anyways.
The quality of the lens at these levels of sharpness helps the focus uniformity some, but other than that, the sharpness of a projector is a culmination of many factors.

The sharpest DLP ever made (Samsung a900b) uses one of the longest minimum throws of any projector, it's not a coincidence. I didn't say the better chip didn't help, just that it's not the main factor, it's one of several. There are DLP projectors with the better chip that aren't as sharp as the Benq, it's no guarantee that the better chip and even a higher quality lens makes a projector sharper (it often does). There are several design aspects the MFR has to decide on which will affect sharpness, the higher quality components give you more play in your design so to speak.


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post #9 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

What does MTF of the Optoma have to do with the Benq.
Read the whitepaper from TI, I don't want to argue. The Benq's design of the longer min throw is why it's sharper. The Optoma isn't as sharp as the Benq anyways.

The quality of the lens at these levels of sharpness helps the focus uniformity some, but other than that, the sharpness of a projector is a culmination of many factors.

The sharpest DLP ever made (Samsung a900b) uses one of the longest minimum throws of any projector, it's not a coincidence.

The lens throw between the two I mentioned isn't all that different. I highly doubt there is that much of a difference. Also, you're comparing a $13000 projector where the majority of the money in the projector is in the lens. An LS-1 vs a W7000 is much more comparable.

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post #10 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:20 PM
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The TI whitepaper (don't have the link handy) fully explains it, you can google "Dlp TI whitepaper". Tiny changes in throw can make huge differences in sharpness as explained by TI. And yes, the Optoma's are not as sharp as the Benq. Optoma DLP's have been known to be just average as compared to some other DLP's in their price range. Different models of DLP projectors have sharpness variances in their respective price ranges, just because they use the same chip of two DLP's does not mean the sharpness will be the same. The Benq's have always been known to be one of the sharper, if not the sharpest DLP in the under $4k category. The sharpness is so high, that our eyes cannot perceive further sharpness in video compared to other projectors, not from normal seating distances and 20/20 vision. The last point isn't THAT subjective, it's been tested many times in this froum.

The quality of the lens affects focus uniformity more than center (or most focused point) sharpness.


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post #11 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:32 PM
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I did get a chance to see a Mitsubishi HC7800D and that is what I've been making my comparison of sharpness to. I haven't seen the the W6000/7000. I get what you're saying about seating distance. It's almost like trying to say you can discern 1080p vs 720p at certain distances when it's not humanly possible. My perceptions of the Mits I saw was that it wasn't quite as sharp compared to an 8150. But I'll have to see a W7000 for myself to see if it's really as sharp as you say.

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post #12 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:39 PM
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You'll have to wait until the firmware is updated because Benq w7000 had to fix a pixel mapping issue on the HDMI port with the firmware. Go see a Benq w6000 instead, they didn't have this issue. I believe the Mits had a pixel mapping bug sort of like the Benq w7000 but different (Zombie helped Benq fix), so next firmware update the w7000 will be the same as w6000 sharpness.

The Benq's focus uniformity seems to have some variance between units, but I've never verified that myself, however assuming a good unit, it should be a tad sharper than the Mits hc7800, especially if you saw a Mits with a sharpness bug.

I owned a Mits hc4000 (hc7800 has better lens), and it was fairly sharp, but the focus uniformity wasn't perfect, it was off enough to be barely visible in Video. On the w6000 I saw, the focus uniformity although not 100% perfect, the center point was just so ridiculously sharp that focusing the PJ at about 1/4 screen width point made the image sharper than the other PJ's I've seen. It was definitely sharper than any other projector I've seen close up. I have seen super expensive DLP's in showrooms (didn't catch all the models), one was a Runco LS-5 I believe, but I would have needed test patterns to determine anything. I was at Fry's when I played with the Benq, but I brought a disc with me and the guy let me try it.


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post #13 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:49 PM
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Yeah, I usually focus a 1/3 of the way out. If I see a used one on eBay I may pick up a W6000 sometime this summer to compare. They're actually very cheap and seem like a great deal.

It seems most people sort of despise Sim2 and Runco in the forums. I would assume people aren't happy with prices and that they are "dealer only" companies. Personally I always like going to those boutique home theater stores just to check out what they're offering. Most of them are also a dealer of another brand. For example, one of the stores near me is a Runco, Epson, and Sony dealer. Just a few weeks ago I got to compare a Sony 95ES, Epson 5010, and the Runco Q750i (LED based DLP). Where else can you go to not only ask questions but compare 3 totally different projectors like that? Sure they have price hikes but if you're someone who likes warranties and a helpful service if you need it, Runco dealers (and the company itself) are top notch.

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post #14 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 02:55 PM
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I want to visit more of those places, I've been to a few of the big showrooms in Dallas and a few other cities, as well as a few trade shows.

From the big retailer places, the Sony hw30 was/is at some Best Buy Magnolias, the w6000/w1200/w1100 is at Fry's. However, the w6000 is usually not on display but they often have one in the back that was returned. If you can find someone nice enough to help you at these places, which isn't always easy.

The Sony hw30 and ACer9500bd are about the only main projectors I haven't seen from this year if you count comparable models (RS-45 close enough to RS-55, w6000 close enough to w7000, etc...), I did see it at one place but it wasn't hooked up.


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post #15 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 03:04 PM
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I don't despise the Runco's, for people that have the money to splurge it works out, but it's just most of us in the forums don't want to pay that much for a projector, we'd rather just upgrade faster.


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post #16 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 07:08 PM
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There is no way that I would buy a single chip DLP projector. I just would not want to take the chance that I, or family and friends, would be sensitive to the rainbows. Also, the zoom and lens shift range of most DLP projectors are dismally low compared with LCD projectors. This means that you probably have to hang it from the ceiling and cannot rear shelf mount, and if you want to go to a 2.35 CIH set up you will have to fork out thousands extra for an anamorphic lens because your DLP has insufficient zoom and shift to do the zoom method of CIH. Also, pixel visibility is a non-issue with 1080p LCD projectors, particulary the Panasonics which have zero SDE. Contrast and color saturation are now as good or better than DLP projectors. Finally there's no spinning color wheel to crap out.
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post #17 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 07:45 PM
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All of that has to do with how much you're willing to spend. In the under $1500 price range DLP is by far the king of overall PQ. Current DLPs have color wheels that spin much faster than they used to and have more segments. Any RBE that is seen will be minor and not often.

There are drawbacks to LCDs as well. Seeing how there are 3 LCD panels there is a higher chance of one of them failing. Dust blobs are also a huge risk with many LCD models. You also have to take into consideration panel convergence. The pixel fill is also higher on DLPs. Sharpness is also usually better on DLPs. Also, SDE is kind of a thing of the past. Both technologies rarely have issues with it in the 1080p world and at normal viewing distances it isn't an issue at all.

All technologies have their drawbacks. But if DLP was as bad as you make it sound no one would buy one. Considering almost all the major PJ manufactures put out new models each year I would imagine they still sell fairly well.

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post #18 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffman View Post

Also, pixel visibility is a non-issue with 1080p LCD projectors, particulary the Panasonics which have zero SDE. Finally

High pixel fill doesn't just reduce the obvious visibility of pixels, it creates a smoother more analog looking image. That is why cinemas use 4k digital at commercial cinemas. If it really weren't any issue, the commercial theaters would just use 1080p LCD.

Otherwise in this forum people wouldn't be paying so much to get a higher pixel fill.
Not a single commercial cinema uses LCD, only LCOS or DLP. LCD is fine, but DLP does produce a better image at some price points, and IMHO even in the sub-$2500 categories the pixel fill and sharpness can still help vs. some LCD's, especially with gaming or HTPC. The JVC I am most impressed with the sharpness, but the LCD's I've seen are still a step back from DLP in sharpness for some reason.

The placement flexibility can be an issue however, and LCD does darker blacks on the cheaper side, but DLP has it beat in other categories. No comment on Panny's smoothscreen tech...


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post #19 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

All of that has to do with how much you're willing to spend. In the under $1500 price range DLP is by far the king of overall PQ. Current DLPs have color wheels that spin much faster than they used to and have more segments. Any RBE that is seen will be minor and not often.

There are drawbacks to LCDs as well. Seeing how there are 3 LCD panels there is a higher chance of one of them failing. Dust blobs are also a huge risk with many LCD models. You also have to take into consideration panel convergence. The pixel fill is also higher on DLPs. Sharpness is also usually better on DLPs. Also, SDE is kind of a thing of the past. Both technologies rarely have issues with it in the 1080p world and at normal viewing distances it isn't an issue at all.

All technologies have their drawbacks. But if DLP was as bad as you make it sound no one would buy one. Considering almost all the major PJ manufactures put out new models each year I would imagine they still sell fairly well.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I have always thought that the DLP spinning color wheel is a bit of a kluge. It reminds me of the early 1900's Kinemacolor film system, where they generated the color from black and white film by spinning a red and green filter wheel in front of the camera and projector. Imagine what the DLP single chip system does to your brain, trying madly to assemble the correct color information from three or more RGB images flashing at it. As if the brain does not already have enough to do merging the 24fps picture into continuous motion. No wonder some people get headaches and nausea, and occasionaly seizures, watching single chip DLP images.
How much more sophisticated (and easier on the eye/brain) is the 3LCD or 3DLP system.
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post #20 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

All of that has to do with how much you're willing to spend. In the under $1500 price range DLP is by far the king of overall PQ. Current DLPs have color wheels that spin much faster than they used to and have more segments. Any RBE that is seen will be minor and not often.

There are drawbacks to LCDs as well. Seeing how there are 3 LCD panels there is a higher chance of one of them failing. Dust blobs are also a huge risk with many LCD models. You also have to take into consideration panel convergence. The pixel fill is also higher on DLPs. Sharpness is also usually better on DLPs. Also, SDE is kind of a thing of the past. Both technologies rarely have issues with it in the 1080p world and at normal viewing distances it isn't an issue at all.

All technologies have their drawbacks. But if DLP was as bad as you make it sound no one would buy one. Considering almost all the major PJ manufactures put out new models each year I would imagine they still sell fairly well.

I had the w6000 and everyone in my household seen rainbows.
Too bad to because it throws an assume picture that is razor sharp.
DLP's usually have a louder fan noise floor as well and light leaks.

I've owned 3 LCD projectors and no dust blobs.

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post #21 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

I had the w6000 and everyone in my household seen rainbows.
Too bad to because it throws an assume picture that is razor sharp.
DLP's usually have a louder fan noise floor as well and light leaks.

I've owned 3 LCD projectors and no dust blobs.

You have to take into consideration the extremely bright image the W6000 throws. The brighter the image the more susceptible the projector is to color separation. My single chip Planar PD8150 is around 650 D65 lumens with a new bulb and I very very rarely see rainbows. But it also has unishape lamp technology incorporated into the projector to help alleviate RBE.

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post #22 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taffman View Post

Well, to be perfectly honest, I have always thought that the DLP spinning color wheel is a bit of a kluge. It reminds me of the early 1900's Kinemacolor film system, where they generated the color from black and white film by spinning a red and green filter wheel in front of the camera and projector. Imagine what the DLP single chip system does to your brain, trying madly to assemble the correct color information from three or more RGB images flashing at it. As if the brain does not already have enough to do merging the 24fps picture into continuous motion. No wonder some people get headaches and nausea, and occasionaly seizures, watching single chip DLP images.
How much more sophisticated (and easier on the eye/brain) is the 3LCD or 3DLP system.

I wasn't aware single chip DLP projectors made people sick. I know 3D can do the things you mention but I've never heard anyone say DLP made them have seizures. Todays single chip DLP projectors with very fast spinning wheels produce a very stable image in regards to color reproduction.

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post #23 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:03 PM
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I wasn't aware single chip DLP projectors made people sick. I know 3D can do the things you mention but I've never heard anyone say DLP made them have seizures. Todays single chip DLP projectors with very fast spinning wheels produce a very stable image in regards to color reproduction.

Do a search on the web and you will find plenty of reports on single chip DLP inducing headaches and nausea during 2 hour feature films. 3D has the same effect on some people. The epyleptic son of a friend of mine cannot see any 3D movie as it brings on a seizure for sure. It alL comes down to overtaxing the brain. Most people have no problem, but there are many out there who just cannot tolerate the extra neuro processing demanded by single chip DLP.
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post #24 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:41 PM
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I am hugely sensitive to rainbows, I can see too many on the Benq w6000 unless I watch it below say 14 fL brightness (and even then I still see slightly too much). Brightness makes a huge difference, but there are DLP's with less RBE.


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post #25 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:49 PM
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I only on occasion see them. What I don't get is how it is an issue for people? You only see them on dark contrasty scenes, like during rolling credits for example.They don't really bother me. They don't make the image look worse. Its kind of like "hmmm something seems off" because they're only seen in your periphery. Then the next scene comes up and they're gone as fast as they came. I could understand if they were in your direct line of sight. That would truly be bothersome.

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post #26 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 09:54 PM
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It is an issue because on some projectors (like the Mits hc4000), to me the RBE actually was like a bright flashing light even in purely dark scenes. It felt like someone taking a camera flash in your face all the time. The reason it doesn't seem like an issue to you, is because the RBE is probably more tame (does not appear as perceptibly bright), even though you see it. So it's not just about how much you see, it's how bright it is and the frequency in a row you see it.

It was BARELY a deal-breaker to me on the Mits hc4000, but it was a deal-breaker (again barely). I could have lived with it, but it was really annoying in games as well as some TV shows like Stargate Universe. In most movies, it was just a slight nuisance, but some it ruined the experience for me. Luckily with the Pro8200, it's not an issue at all, I can barely ever see it even if I look for it.

I am glad I found the Viewsonic which had less RBE and was cheap (remember I own a JVC as well), but I like the DLP a lot. I am hesitant to ever buy another pj with a flat 4x-6seg color wheel, but I am not 100% against it either (just hesitant). I really wish the others would at least adapt the 7-seg instead or all go to 5x or 6x wheels.

Hope that makes sense of it...


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post #27 of 30 Old 04-16-2012, 10:12 PM
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RBE can appear directly on the screen in your direct line of sight, that is what happens to me with some projectors. It really never does on 6x wheels to me or the VS 7-seg 4x, but occassionally I can see an outlined flash on the edges of black and white (but not enough to be bothersome). The Mits and Benq are tough on me RBE-wise, that said I have considered buying the Benq anyways and just keeping the JVC for SCI FI (or even selling the JVC and buying a second DLP other than the VS).

I was really mainly waiting for a non-Optoma 6x based DLP that is under $3000 that has the attributes I want, have not seen that yet and unti I do I'll stick with what I have.


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post #28 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 01:58 PM
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I was really mainly waiting for a non-Optoma 6x based DLP that is under $3000 that has the attributes I want, have not seen that yet and unti I do I'll stick with what I have.[/quote]

It seems you are not to keen on Optoma Projectors. Wondering why?
Have you ever seen the HD3300 in action?
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post #29 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 02:09 PM
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the led/laser dlp pjs wont have color wheels,the 1080p viewsonic will only be 1200 lumens tho,to the pj makers i think rbe is a non issue so few are affected by it.

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post #30 of 30 Old 04-17-2012, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLWTX View Post

It seems you are not to keen on Optoma Projectors. Wondering why?
Have you ever seen the HD3300 in action?

I actually have nothing against Optomas, and have recommended the hd33/3300 several times. It is just that I want my next DLP to have different attributes, preferably an IRIS, and some Optomas have focus uniformity issues. I would like one slightly sharper.

I am basically waiting for a DLP projector that does not yet exist, let me put it that way.


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