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post #1 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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the specs on the HC4000 website state that it can handle 1080p at 50hz, 60hz and 24hz. Does the projector actually refresh at 24hz or at a multiple of 24hz or is it just displaying 24 at 60hz with pulldown?
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 02:33 PM
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It multiplies it by 2, it's 48hz for 24p content just like other (60hz max capable) DLP projectors do to reduce flicker instead of showing it at 24hz. Going to pure 60hz causes 3:2 judder. You can watch it at 60hz as well if you wish, but some will notice the judder.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It multiplies it by 2, it's 48hz for 24p content just like other (60hz max capable) DLP projectors do to reduce flicker instead of showing it at 24hz. Going to pure 60hz causes 3:2 judder. You can watch it at 60hz as well if you wish, but some will notice the judder.

thanks for clarification. it says in the site there is a variable refresh rate in excess of 72hz so i thought there was a possibility of it doing 72 instead. is there flicker at 48?
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:13 PM
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Normally DLPs frame double to 48hz. They can do this because DLP has a 100% digital pathway to the DMD whereas LCOS and LCD normally can't do 48hz without flickering so they go higher to 72 or 96. There should be no flickering at all with this DLP at 48hz.

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post #5 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Normally DLPs frame double to 48hz. They can do this because DLP has a 100% digital pathway to the DMD whereas LCOS and LCD normally can't do 48hz without flickering so they go higher to 72 or 96. There should be no flickering at all with this DLP at 48hz.

does something like the 5010 do 72hz then? I was under the impression those lcds did 60hz always. I'm looking at the hc4000 because in the end motion is more important than black level. I can always see ABL on plasmas which is making me shy away from things with auto-irises like the 5010 and the w7000 since I know I will be very sensitive to it, so the hc4000 sounds more and more like a great choice.
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:36 PM
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I know my old JVC DLA-RS20 did 96hz with 24p material. I don't know what the Epson does. But it very well could be 120hz.

If you're coming from a plasma you're not going to too happy with the black level performance of the HC4000. Dynamic irises in general are leaps and bounds better than they were just a couple years ago. It seems they have tweaked the algorithms and settings over the years. Sony has one of the best iterations of a dynamic iris but their cheapest current model worth having is the Sony HW30 which is more than double the cost of the HC4000. So if you're very sensitive to an over-eager DI I would stray away from it. I used to have an Epson 6500UB and the DI drove me insane which is why I switched over to the JVC. The JVC had a VERY stable looking picture which was really nice. The HC4000 is a great product for the price, though.

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post #7 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
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you think the motion on the hw30 is better or equal to dlp?
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post #8 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:40 PM
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The motion on the Mits hc4000 is very good if that is what you are into. Many have referred to it as reference level in motion, that was Krane's comment from his review site I believe.

I have owned a few DLP's including the hc4000, and the hc4000 for some reason looks slightly better at 48hz than my other DLP's. Not sure why. That said, some DLP's that have a higher HZ give more options in different ways to convert video frames, so these might be better depending on what your goal really is. I owned a Sanyo z4000 which had 5:5 pulldown, and the motion was pretty good. I am pretty sure it was better than the JVC's motion even though they are the same HZ (not sure why though).

Motion isn't just affected by hz and frame rates, but also the panel drivers and pixel response time. This stuff varies between projectors, DLP is faster, LCOS and LCD lag behind a bit, although it seems like LCD is better than LCOS in motion usually on a level playing field (haven't tested enough to be sure though).

I am guessing the 5010 uses 5:5 pulldown or some derived one I believe as standard (24p x 5 = about 120hz). I think it can go even higher though.

That just duplicates the frames, but you can add Frame Interpolation to add more frames but then you get the soap opera effect.


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post #9 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema626 View Post

you think the motion on the hw30 is better or equal to dlp?

Although the DLP would have better motion in some senses, I don't think I would buy a DLP projector just for that reason if you are wanting the Sony instead. I would factor others more into the decision, like sharpness, brightness, gaming, 3D, price points, setup considerations, etc...

I doubt anyone is going to be bothered by the motion on the Sony (maybe someone, but not many).

Motion cannot be equal on a NON-DLP projector technically, because the pixel response of DLP is like 1000+ times faster, even at the same refresh rate. The refresh rate is only the ability to process and display frames at certain intervals and how many within a given time frame, but the pixel response is how fast the pixel changes itself. Think of it this way, if I drew an animated cartoon on notebook paper like the way we did as kids and then shuffled the pages, regardless of how fast the pages are turned, if the images were instead made up of pixels, they can blur together (almost like ghost of the previous pixel's color) no matter how fast I am flipping the pages so to speak.

So a super fast refresh rate with a super slow pixel response would still show some blur. Blur can be caused by a combination of things though.


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post #10 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

Although the DLP would have better motion in some senses, I don't think I would buy a DLP projector just for that reason if you are wanting the Sony instead. I would factor others more into the decision, like sharpness, brightness, gaming, 3D, price points, setup considerations, etc...

I doubt anyone is going to be bothered by the motion on the Sony (maybe someone, but not many).

Motion cannot be equal on a NON-DLP projector technically, because the pixel response of DLP is like 1000+ times faster, even at the same refresh rate. The refresh rate is only the ability to process and display frames at certain intervals and how many within a given time frame, but the pixel response is how fast the pixel changes itself. Think of it this way, if I drew an animated cartoon on notebook paper like the way we did as kids and then shuffled the pages, regardless of how fast the pages are turned, if the images were instead made up of pixels, they can blur together (almost like ghost of the previous pixel's color) no matter how fast I am flipping the pages so to speak.

So a super fast refresh rate with a super slow pixel response would still show some blur. Blur can be caused by a combination of things though.


right. that's why I still see motion blur even at proper frame-rate with digital projection. the sony is a bit too expensive for me but it's a good thing to keep in mind. i have just always assumed dlp with manual iris was the way to go for purest image.
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post #11 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:51 PM
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If you're thinking about the Sony HW30 you shouldn't have an issue with motion. It uses Sony's newest SXRD panels which are much faster than their older and are a lot better natively with motion compared to JVCs DILA panels. I say natively because a lot of people nowadays attribute frame interpolation into their assessment of how motion looks on these projectors. DLP will still be a tad better as DLP DMDs are 300x more responsive than LCD type panels.

edit: damn my post was too late :P

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post #12 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 03:54 PM
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LOL, sorry...

I gave him the long answer because I owned all those projectors before he was mentioning except the newer Sony. The Mits hc4000, the RS-45, various LCD's, and a Sony vw70.
For me anyhow, motion on the JVC could be better, but even JVC's motion is not a deal breaker to me. On a Sony, I doubt you would notice.


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post #13 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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very good info here guys. thanks. DLP still sounds like the way to go at my pricepoint. I wish there was a better option without a dynamic iris though. I still think the hc4000 looks good but I haven't seen it in person to know if the black levels outweigh the advantages of a bigger screen and proper 48hz.
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post #14 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:06 PM
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You could always go used. There are a bunch of older BenQ models that have great blacks and have manual irises. The BenQ W5000, W9000, W10000, and W20000 would all be great options and can be had for very cheap. I see a couple good deals on eBay right now.

This is an amazing deal and is loads better than the Mitsubishi. You could probably get it close to $999 if you make an offer. It's a refurb with a one year warranty.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Benq-W10000-...ht_3402wt_1396

If you're interested check here to make sure it will work in your environment. DLPs are known to have the worst placement flexibility out of the current digital projector technologies:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ...ulator-pro.htm

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post #15 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

You could always go used. There are a bunch of older BenQ models that have great blacks and have manual irises. The BenQ W5000, W9000, W10000, and W20000 would all be great options and can be had for very cheap. I see a couple good deals on eBay right now.

interesting. so the models you listed have better black levels than the mits but also have similar motion handling?
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:14 PM
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Considering both are DLP and neither have a frame interpolation mode in question they should handle motion very similarly.

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post #17 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema626 View Post

very good info here guys. thanks. DLP still sounds like the way to go at my pricepoint. I wish there was a better option without a dynamic iris though. I still think the hc4000 looks good but I haven't seen it in person to know if the black levels outweigh the advantages of a bigger screen and proper 48hz.

The Mits has decent blacks for no IRIS, but the Sony is much better at this and the Sony's IRIS is invisible anyhow. Each projector has pro's / con's. If you are struggling with the budget of the Sony, grab the Mits hc4000 if it works for you (if its bright enough for your screen). You cannot go wrong with the hc4000 for the price for movie watching. Black levels aren't everything (and I own a JVC and can say that). I mean I like the added blacks for some movies, but it isn't but maybe 10% of my viewing I really crave it, if that.

A few points, it partly depends how far back you can mount the projector. If you can mount it all the way back for the given screen size, you will get a bit better blacks on a DLP. Considering the hc4000 only does about half the native on/off at closest throw as compared to farthest throw, and the Benq's are probably similar. If you have to mount the DLP near closest throw, the blacks are going to be kind of sucky. The Mits has higher Native on/off over the Benq's, the Mits is like the only cheap DLP projector that can exceed 3000:1 on/off without an IRIS. The newest Benq w1200 may get to 3000:1, I've seen a measurement claim it did, but not sure. The infocus sp8602 had the highest native on/off for any DLP projector under $4000 that I know of. It was around 5000:1, but more importantly it did it at a very high lumens. There is an Optoma or two that have over 4000:1 native on/off I believe (the hd8600 I think), but I am not sure if the Infocus beat it at native. I measured 3,800:1 on a Mits hc4000 which just a couple tweaks very near D65, that is quite a bit higher then what I get with the Viewsonic Pro 8200. Although the VS's black levels are not nearly as bad as some of the reviewers claimed, they are like a Benq without an IRIS basically. I got 2,800:1 on a Viewsonic Pro8200, but that was in an unuseable mode. I measured around 1500:1 in the mode I calibrated, maybe 2000:1 (there is some error when taking these measurements and measuring in different ways gave me different results).

Most native On/Off measurements for Benq's (the contrast you get without an IRIS) are generally in the 1500:1 to 2500:1 range, except the w1200 which might be slightly higher.
The Optoma hd33 is also in this same general 2500:1 range.


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You guys are like walking consumer grade projector encyclopedias. surprising it comes in at 3800:1, close to advertised. The mits still sounds like the best, especially if i splurge on a calibration with the saved $. I can use a grey screen to enhance the black as well, right?

edit: i'm drooling over these infocus sp8602 specs
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:34 PM
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A grey screen will help a bit. With a grey screen you should definitely get it calibrated. The color of the screen will have a nasty effect on the overall color projected on the screen.

I've only started reading about/buying projectors for a little over a year now. This site is one of the greatest resources in the world on unbiased and subjective information on projectors (and other A/V goods too). When you have no idea what you want in a projector all you need to do is sit down and read some of the threads. Give it a little time and you'll probably know more than me.

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post #20 of 20 Old 04-16-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinema626 View Post

You guys are like walking consumer grade projector encyclopedias. surprising it comes in at 3800:1, close to advertised. The mits still sounds like the best, especially if i splurge on a calibration with the saved $. I can use a grey screen to enhance the black as well, right?

The Mits hc4000 is very good, but the Benq w6000 is slightly better depending on your uses, but the w6000 is much more audible (fan and IRIS noise). The Benq is sharper, the Mits has better blacks if you turn the IRIS off on both, but not by a huge amount or anything. The Benq's blacks are much darker after the IRIS engages. The Mits is very sharp for movies, but the focus uniformity is slightly noticeable in HTPC use, more so than on the Benq.

I only know so much about CERTAIN projectors because I read the forums religiously for 6 years and I have been comparing them since then, it's a hobby of mine.

On the Mits most of my measurements were around 3,200:1, I tweaked it to get to 3,800:1. Still the tweaked 3,800:1 didn't lose any noticeable PQ, it was slightly off of D65 by like 3 dE or something, I forgot as that was like almost 3 years ago (don't remember what I changed). BTW, there is a trade-off/reason the Mits has the higher On/Off than most DLP's in its price range. For one, it has a different design which reduces the brightness to increase the contrast. It also has DC 3 instead of DC 2 (that barely makes a difference, I estimate 20%). Keep in mind that it is bright enough for many setups, but the Benq's are tons brighter.

The Benq's have DC 2 and not DC 3. Oddly enough the $800 Viewsonic also has DC3. Note that some cheaper projectors have DC 3 as well (even some 720p DLP's). DC 3 vs. DC 2 doesn't matter nearly as much as the coating on the optics, so it's more of a secondary benefit, but better to have it than not I guess.


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