Is it widely agreed that DLP is better for video games and LCOS is better for movies? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 10-29-2012, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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A while ago someone assured me that you'd be hard pressed to beat the image of a DLP overall, but more recently my readings have lead me to believe that for watching movies, the black levels and contrast ratio of LCOS projectors, like the JVC RS1, are far superior hands down. Is this the case?
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post #2 of 22 Old 10-29-2012, 11:13 AM
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I would agree with that.
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post #3 of 22 Old 10-29-2012, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I would agree with that.
Cool. Is that the common consensus? What are the drawbacks of either technology when it comes to movies?

I'm comparing the JVC RS1 and the BenQ W6000. I will be almost exclusively using it for movies.
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post #4 of 22 Old 10-30-2012, 12:40 AM
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Plus for a DLP is sharpness, motion resolution, ANSI contrast, ghost- and flicker-free 3D image. Minus is on/off contrast (except some newer LED/Laser and high-end ones), rainbow effect, cleaner image due to lack of dithering (?). I don't know, I like DLP technology more and my next (and first, lol) projector is going to be either Mitsubishi HC8000 or Panasonic PT-RZ470.
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post #5 of 22 Old 10-30-2012, 12:57 AM
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I would say not very many drawbacks for Lcos or LCD when it comes to movies (the better models anyhow, the ones that can do really deep blacks). DLP: Rainbows, weaker blacks, but man....what a nice picture a DLP displays!

I would and I am using a dual projector setup. My DLP for regular TV watching, video games and 3D. My Epson 8500Ub, soon to be 5020, for movies and possibly 3D. I love the DLP look but hate the RBE-rainbows and the weaker blacks for film.
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-30-2012, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I would say not very many drawbacks for Lcos or LCD when it comes to movies (the better models anyhow, the ones that can do really deep blacks). DLP: Rainbows, weaker blacks, but man....what a nice picture a DLP displays!
I would and I am using a dual projector setup. My DLP for regular TV watching, video games and 3D. My Epson 8500Ub, soon to be 5020, for movies and possibly 3D. I love the DLP look but hate the RBE-rainbows and the weaker blacks for film.

Right on. What exactly is the rainbow issue?

Also, which technology looks more lifelike?
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post #7 of 22 Old 10-30-2012, 09:20 PM
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Rainbows are basically a flash of RBE from the colour wheel. In high contrast scene's or if you shift your eye's you may see a streak of light, RBE's, caused by the spinning colour wheel of the DLP....it kind of resembles a brief quick rainbow, hence the term. The W7000 has a 4x colour wheel or it spins 4x per frame and some people are susceptible to the effect (the W7000 does have a 6x colour wheel but ONLY when used in Dynamic mode). Some DLP projectors use a 6x colour wheel to limit the effect. The DLP produces a really nice image. The skin tones look so good but hard to watch a film in total darkness because of the effect, if you are susceptible.

In my opinion, I like the film look from my Epson 8500Ub better than my W7000 when watching movies. I like watching regular TV , sports and video games much more on the W7000.
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post #8 of 22 Old 10-30-2012, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

The W7000 has a 4x colour wheel or it spins 4x per frame and some people are susceptible to the effect. Some DLP projectors use a 6x colour wheel to limit the effect.
W7000 has a 6x color wheel in Dynamic mode. Many calibrate this mode just to have 6x speed color wheel.
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post #9 of 22 Old 10-31-2012, 12:54 AM
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That is true but you need to use a N/D filter to knock down some of those lumens. Again, only in Dynamic mode.

I wish they could do a firmware update to get the 6x working in all modes.

I know I should have said it had 6x in dynamic, my fault and didn't mean to mislead or misinform anyone. Above post fixed.
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post #10 of 22 Old 10-31-2012, 01:47 PM
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Re: Rainbow Effect or RBE...

I got a Mitsubishi HC4000 DLP - my first projector - and right out of the box I was super upset about RBE. I figured oh no I'm susceptible, bought an ND filter, etc. as I couldn't send the unit back without paying a restocking fee. Some here said "don't worry about it, it's too soon, the bulb is just new" and others said that they believe most people get used to it over time. I was skeptical...

Now with around 200 hours on my PJ and not using the ND, I can say that the bulb must have settled down or I could have just grown accustomed to the effect because I never notice them anymore. The only time I see it is if there is say... a dark room in a house, with light streaming through the window. I will catch RBE off of those high contrast images, but it's subtle and doesn't bother me at all.

Everyone is different of course, but I'm a super picky person about these sorts of things and can honestly say that I believe now that probably everyone can see RBE if they know what to look for (sure, some maybe more than others). I would wager that the brain just needs to adjust.

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post #11 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funstuff View Post

Re: Rainbow Effect or RBE...
I got a Mitsubishi HC4000 DLP - my first projector - and right out of the box I was super upset about RBE. I figured oh no I'm susceptible, bought an ND filter, etc. as I couldn't send the unit back without paying a restocking fee. Some here said "don't worry about it, it's too soon, the bulb is just new" and others said that they believe most people get used to it over time. I was skeptical...
Now with around 200 hours on my PJ and not using the ND, I can say that the bulb must have settled down or I could have just grown accustomed to the effect because I never notice them anymore. The only time I see it is if there is say... a dark room in a house, with light streaming through the window. I will catch RBE off of those high contrast images, but it's subtle and doesn't bother me at all.
Everyone is different of course, but I'm a super picky person about these sorts of things and can honestly say that I believe now that probably everyone can see RBE if they know what to look for (sure, some maybe more than others). I would wager that the brain just needs to adjust.

I see. Which technology looks more lifelike and real?
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post #12 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TomT99 View Post

I see. Which technology looks more lifelike and real?

I'm sure the more expensive LCOS units like the JVCs you were mentioning would be no-brainers.

For my price range and what I was able to see...I liked DLP better than LCD (say Mits HC4000 DLP vs Panasonic AR100 LCD) because DLP was more filmic -- similar to what you'd see at the cinema (they played The Dark Knight side by side).

LCD has always seemed too 'shot on home video at a high frame rate' to me. This is if you can use something like the HC4000 DLP in low/no light room, etc. LCD does better with lights on in the room and - in the showroom I was looking at them in - looked better with bright movies (animated films, etc.).

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post #13 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 03:08 PM
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I totally disagree with the above mentioned, with my setup. I have the BenQ W7000 (DLP), an Epson 8350 and the 8500Ub (3LCD).

The DLP gives you a really sharp (W7000 is bright) picture with better handling of motion so it looks better in ambient light with regular TV, sports and video games. It gives film a more digital look, ultra clear so it loses it's cinematic quality. The LCD and LcoS have a less sharp of an image, better blacks(better models, 8500Ub and up) and gives the picture a more cinematic look in a darkened setting. Animation looks much better on my DLP because of its better colours, sharpness and brightness. Again, this is my opinion with my setup.

Even my 8350 will look better (more cinematic) on movies than my BenQ but the overall quality of the picture is much better on the BenQ. DLP has a very nice looking picture and the quality of skin tones and clolour are a step above the Epsons. But again, the Epsons will look better in a cinematic setting.

This is why I have a two projector setup. W7000 for ambient light TV watching, sports and video games. My 8500Ub soon to be 5020 for movies in a darkened setting.

If you're gonna spend a mit-full and get a 3 chip DLP, well I believe that's a whole different story.
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post #14 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I totally disagree with the above mentioned, with my setup. I have the BenQ W7000 (DLP), an Epson 8350 and the 8500Ub (3LCD).
The DLP gives you a really sharp (W7000 is bright) picture with better handling of motion so it looks better in ambient light with regular TV, sports and video games. It gives film a more digital look, ultra clear so it loses it's cinematic quality. The LCD and LcoS have a less sharp of an image, better blacks(better models, 8500Ub and up) and gives the picture a more cinematic look in a darkened setting. Animation looks much better on my DLP because of its better colours, sharpness and brightness. Again, this is my opinion with my setup.
The 8350 will look better on movies than my BenQ but the overall quality of the picture is much better on the BenQ. DLP has a very nice looking picture and the quality of skin tones and clolour are a step above the Epsons. But again, the Epsons will look better in a cinematic setting.

This is probably true; you have the projectors on hand to tweak and compare.

Admittedly after I left and eventually purchased the Mits, I haven't had anything to compare it to.

I was in a showroom with the Mits HC4000 and Panasonic AR100U side by side, playing the same content and comparing those two in that particular setting with their configuration (assuming it was professionally calibrated), the HC4000 looked more filmic and had more 'wow' factor. He threw up a variety of content and had the lights off, ambient and fairly bright... as he did that the HC4000 began to lose. It's great at least that there are so many options out there and nowadays, with many of the choices most average consumers will happy.

Here's an alright article discussing the topic: http://www.projectorreviews.com/advice/dlpvslcd/index.php

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post #15 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 03:50 PM
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That article is obviously way outdated. LCD projectors and LcoS will now produce deeper blacks than DLP's. Even the more expensive DLP's ($10 000+) get beat by blacks from an under $3000 LCD projector.

Very little tweaking in my setup. I use Disney WoW to adjust contrast and brightness and use my eye to adjust for the colour.

edit:

I should also say, I don't know much about the two projectors you compared but know the Mits HC4000 is considered one of the best projectors in its price range.
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post #16 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

I totally disagree with the above mentioned, with my setup. I have the BenQ W7000 (DLP), an Epson 8350 and the 8500Ub (3LCD).
The DLP gives you a really sharp (W7000 is bright) picture with better handling of motion so it looks better in ambient light with regular TV, sports and video games. It gives film a more digital look, ultra clear so it loses it's cinematic quality. The LCD and LcoS have a less sharp of an image, better blacks(better models, 8500Ub and up) and gives the picture a more cinematic look in a darkened setting. Animation looks much better on my DLP because of its better colours, sharpness and brightness. Again, this is my opinion with my setup.
Even my 8350 will look better (more cinematic) on movies than my BenQ but the overall quality of the picture is much better on the BenQ. DLP has a very nice looking picture and the quality of skin tones and clolour are a step above the Epsons. But again, the Epsons will look better in a cinematic setting.
This is why I have a two projector setup. W7000 for ambient light TV watching, sports and video games. My 8500Ub soon to be 5020 for movies in a darkened setting.
If you're gonna spend a mit-full and get a 3 chip DLP, well I believe that's a whole different story.

What about live action movies w CGI like Prometheus and Avatar? You want them to look cinematic but theres animation
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post #17 of 22 Old 11-07-2012, 10:55 PM
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JVC and LCOS in general wins against any lower to mid-range DLP in Prometheus easily due to darker blacks, but I think Prometheus was a poorly filmed movie from a color and contrast standpoint with the way the CG was mixed in (just my opinion). There were a lot of issues with odd looking color and poor contrast in many scenes. The Epson should win in Prometheus as well.

LCOS does not look ALL that much different in animated content than a DLP, and LCOS will still win in the darker scenes, so the only way DLP is going to win in animated content is if the overhwhelming majority is bright scenes and motion.

A good sharp DLP should beat an LCOS overall in a movie like Avatar or Transformers as another example, because of all the shiny gliterry color bright scenes that help emphasize sharpness and all the ridiculously fast animation and explosions. That said, the difference will not be as big as some think it is (usually takes A/B to even tell that much).


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post #18 of 22 Old 11-08-2012, 12:14 AM
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I watched Avatar on my W7000 and it being a movie, cinematic rules apply. Same thing goes for Transformers, Tron and similar CGI movies. My 8500Ub looks much better than the digital look of the W7000 on these cinematic type movies. I was talking more about animated films like Toy Story, Monsters vs. Aliens etc. etc. I find the sharpness, brightness, colourfulness, and smoothness of the W7000 really make these types of movies PoP...in a good way. It's with these types of movies that I prefer the look of my W7000 over my Epson's.

Again, this is all subjective. If the digital look is what you like and are trying to achieve, then the W7000 (minus the deep blacks) is a perfect projector for this scenario. If you're trying to go for more of a cinematic experience, then a better Epson, Panasonic moving into the Sony's and JVC's is what you want. Unless of course you want a 3 chip DLP (Runco, Sim2), my understanding is that these machines look awesome (just what I heard, I've never seen) but come with a hefty price tag.

I like the cinema look so I choose not to use my W7000 because of its lack of cinematic quality. My 8500Ub wins hands down.
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post #19 of 22 Old 11-08-2012, 02:10 AM
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Well, with a DLP like the w7000 and it's lower native on/off, an Epson 8500ub is better for MANY movies. Let's however be clear that all DLP's do not fall under the same cinematic rating as the Benq w7000, there are higher-end DLP's that have those same attributes as the Epson (higher contrast).

That said, I'm going to have to have a different opinion about the film-like look (sorry). The DLP has the better pixel fill, and overall looks more similar to LCOS than it does to LCD (but many cheap DLP's have poor blacks, so in dark scenes LCD does look more similar to LCOS). So I can see how someone can call an LCD more cinematic and more film-like, but let me clarify that the opinion in the forum and overall of experts would say DLP is more film-like (keep reading before you throw a tomato)...

LCOS is the owner of the film-look over both other techs, this is inarguable as directors and cinematographers screen films on LCOS and DLP, not on LCD. So, movie theaters do not use LCD projectors but they do use DLP, so it's kind of hard to call LCD more film-like than DLP, but I think the reason the 8500ub appears more film-like to you is the higher native on/off and the better blacks as well as it not being as sharp as the w7000 (this is a valid argument, except that most commercial movie theaters actually have poor blacks). In the forums we generally consider film-like in this order LCOS > DLP > LCD, this is because if you have a DLP calibrated correctly it can look very film-like almost as much as an LCOS projector. The Benq is very sharp (sharper than some 3-chip DLP's at movie theaters), so this could be one issue. You can tone down that sharpening a bit though.

Film-like means looking as close to 35mm shot film as possible. To see the film-like look as intended by a master of cinematography you do NOT want to see any effects of pixel fill, so watch parts of the movie "Tree of Life" and watch this on an LCOS projector (this is the film-like look), very very boring movie but very good camera work. Most movies these days are filmed on digital cameras and not 35mm film, that one was done in 35mm film.

That said, I do know the Benq (although a good DLP projector) is not the most film-like DLP, but I am not sure I would call DLP more digital looking than LCD since the pixel fill of LCD has a digital effect to the image. As far as cinematic goes (I guess you partly mean the higher contrast and better blacks), well some higher-end home theater DLP's ($5000+) with good contrast have blacks closer to the Epson (but DLP's at movie theaters do not because the bright lamps they need for such large screens, and the ambient lighting they use mess with the contrast).

As you noted though, it does depend what movie or animated content you are watching to what particular technology might win. Also keep in mind that you are running a DLP with very high sharpness and very low Native on/off, some of these other DLP's have much higher On/Off and look more film-like than the Benq. I think it is generally accepted in the forum that DLP is more film-like than LCD (sorry if we disagree here a bit), other than the Panny 7000 with its smooth screen (which is a mixed bag).


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post #20 of 22 Old 11-08-2012, 10:44 AM
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That's why I said with My Setup. I was passing a direct experience from my setup and it is not in agreement, it's in fact the total opposite with post #12. My Epson has a WAY more cinematic look when compared to the W7000. I'm not talking just blacks so please don't infer what my definition of cinematic is, although deep blacks really do help. Even my 8350, as I stated above, has a more cinematic look when compared to my W7000 (IMO) and the BenQ's blacks are better than the 8350.

I can only go by with what my eyes see and it's with this that I base my conclusions on.

I feel I have to pass my experience on because when I first got into projectors and wanted to go big, I was encouraged to stay away from the 133" screen I was planning. I was told, by the self appointed experts, that my 8500Ub couldn't do it and that the image wouldn't have enough fl and that it's too big and I wouldn't be happy. I now run a 153" with absolutely no issues. Maybe my bulb won't last as long as some other setups but it's a small price to pay for the cinematic experience. This is why when all the self appointed experts try to discourage newcomers from going too big I have to post MY experience and let them know it can and has been done.

If I was a sells person trying to push a certain product over another, I could set such product up so that there is a huge bias. That's why I trust the experience of owners on this site and trust them rather than sells people in stores.

At least now the OP knows...
Quote:
Cool. Is that the common consensus? What are the drawbacks of either technology when it comes to movies?

I'm comparing the JVC RS1 and the BenQ W6000. I will be almost exclusively using it for movies.

...what my experience was. The BenQ W6000 is basically the same as the W7000 so my experience with this projector is what I was passing on to him. If I were going strictly for movie viewing then the JVC would be my choice because of the digital look of the BenQ (how it fits in with my definition of a cinematic look).

Again, this is all my opinion from my experience.
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post #21 of 22 Old 11-08-2012, 12:57 PM
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No problem, I tend to go into "teachy" mode sometimes, sorry.
We weren't disagreeing on the picture aspects, just on the definition of how the terms were used.


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post #22 of 22 Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Plus for a DLP is sharpness, motion resolution, ANSI contrast, ghost- and flicker-free 3D image. Minus is on/off contrast (except some newer LED/Laser and high-end ones), rainbow effect, cleaner image due to lack of dithering (?). I don't know, I like DLP technology more and my next (and first, lol) projector is going to be either Mitsubishi HC8000 or Panasonic PT-RZ470.

I hope you're right about the motion resolution. This is the #1 reason I'm trying out an Optoma HD20. I'm so sick of LCD motion issues that I'm going to try to use an Optoma HD20 in small room with a small screen size of 38 "to 45".

Also I'm hoping to get into gaming again, LCDs killed gaming for me and I'm scared of IR with plasma.
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