When is someone going to make a decent projector???? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know about everyone else but I'm frustrated with projector manufacturers. What is so frutrating is that the technology exists to build a really inexpensive, great PQ and long lasting projector but I can't figure out why no one is building it. I'm speaking specifically on LED light engines. LEDs have the ability to turn completely off!! Why do theses projectors, Qumi, K330, the clones, PA70G not have infinite contrast ratios???? I'm mean someone correct me if i'm wrong but it's just a software change. Whatever software algorithm is being used to open and close a dynamic iris, use it for the LEDs. I just don't get it. It's like there is a conspiracy to slowly increment technology so that we buy more and more projectors.

Attention projector manufactures!!!! Just slap in the PA70G light engine into a bigger casing for lower fan speed, add a DC3 or DC$ 1080p DMD and adjust the LEDs to dim based on the image for infinite contrast and you are done!! You have just build the perfect projector. Will somebody please build this @#$@ing thing already!!!!!!!!
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post #2 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 12:50 PM
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I am with you on this.

Also a LED light has almost unlimited life, not the 4000 to 6000 Hours of the current projector bulb.

AND LEDs will add life to the projector due to much cooler running temperatures.

Rich

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post #3 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 02:22 PM
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I agree in some ways, but if you had a fully dimable LED source with a DC3 then you would only gain a perfect fade to black. As soon as any image appears on the screen then you are back to the 5,000:1 (or whatever) that the DC3 can give you. Sure there are dynamic iris arrangements that can also adjust the gamma/contrast in dark scenes to compensate for the reduced light output, but you only gain an infinite contrast on paper. Dark scenes wouldn't look any better than now (or than they look on dynamic iris models anyway).

What does sound good though is the more consistent light output over a longer life time and also the need for recalibration is greatly reduced. Unfortunately I think it'll be some time before these really start to fall into the budget price range.

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post #4 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 03:01 PM
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I'm tired of Projectors being so expensive if you ask me, in some cases I can see like a movie theater or 4K right now..

but like I say to others it's like they just pull a number out of a hat and say lets sell it at this price.
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post #5 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

Attention projector manufactures!!!! Just slap in the PA70G light engine into a bigger casing for lower fan speed, add a DC3 or DC$ 1080p DMD and adjust the LEDs to dim based on the image for infinite contrast and you are done!! You have just build the perfect projector. Will somebody please build this @#$@ing thing already!!!!!!!!

No need for anger. If you convinced that this is a great idea, you can implement it by yourself. Take out a loan from bank, create an ideal projector and sell lot of them, you'll be rich.
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post #6 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

I don't know about everyone else but I'm frustrated with projector manufacturers. What is so frutrating is that the technology exists to build a really inexpensive, great PQ and long lasting projector but I can't figure out why no one is building it. I'm speaking specifically on LED light engines. LEDs have the ability to turn completely off!! Why do theses projectors, Qumi, K330, the clones, PA70G not have infinite contrast ratios???? I'm mean someone correct me if i'm wrong but it's just a software change. Whatever software algorithm is being used to open and close a dynamic iris, use it for the LEDs. I just don't get it. It's like there is a conspiracy to slowly increment technology so that we buy more and more projectors.
Attention projector manufactures!!!! Just slap in the PA70G light engine into a bigger casing for lower fan speed, add a DC3 or DC$ 1080p DMD and adjust the LEDs to dim based on the image for infinite contrast and you are done!! You have just build the perfect projector. Will somebody please build this @#$@ing thing already!!!!!!!!



So you think it would be in a corporations best interest to build a product that will last for many many years providing an image you won't want to upgrade and a light source that does not need to be replaced, and on top to that it has to be dirt cheap so their profit margin is next to nothing.. Really?

Doug

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post #7 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 03:50 PM
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Not to mention the fact that technology changes constantly. What is current and hot today will be tomorrow's bargain bin fodder.
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post #8 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

I don't know about everyone else but I'm frustrated with projector manufacturers. What is so frutrating is that the technology exists to build a really inexpensive, great PQ and long lasting projector but I can't figure out why no one is building it. I'm speaking specifically on LED light engines. LEDs have the ability to turn completely off!! Why do theses projectors, Qumi, K330, the clones, PA70G not have infinite contrast ratios???? I'm mean someone correct me if i'm wrong but it's just a software change. Whatever software algorithm is being used to open and close a dynamic iris, use it for the LEDs. I just don't get it. It's like there is a conspiracy to slowly increment technology so that we buy more and more projectors.
Attention projector manufactures!!!! Just slap in the PA70G light engine into a bigger casing for lower fan speed, add a DC3 or DC$ 1080p DMD and adjust the LEDs to dim based on the image for infinite contrast and you are done!! You have just build the perfect projector. Will somebody please build this @#$@ing thing already!!!!!!!!

Somebody needs a Snickers bar.

Willie
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post #9 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 04:30 PM
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Now THAT was funny. smile.gif
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post #10 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah but this is the same thing that an LCD projector does like the Epson 6020UB, using a dynamic iris to get its contrast ratio. But in this case a DLP has an inherently better ansi contrast ratio versus lcd so the viewing experience should be better. Plus LEDs can dim faster and go all the way to zero versus a dynamic iris.
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post #11 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

So you think it would be in a corporations best interest to build a product that will last for many many years providing an image you won't want to upgrade and a light source that does not need to be replaced, and on top to that it has to be dirt cheap so their profit margin is next to nothing.. Really?

I thought it was a free market with competition.... aren't you implying some sort of anti competition conspiracy??

Personally I would pay 2k easily for this projector. Considering what a DC3 and an LED light engine I would estimate it would cost 500 to build. I think there's money to be made.
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post #12 of 22 Old 12-09-2012, 05:30 PM
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so someone do a kickstarter, for a good led projector.

#1 priority glass lens with good focus.

add in what your top 3 features should be for a good quality projector. What would be on your wish list?
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post #13 of 22 Old 12-10-2012, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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so someone do a kickstarter, for a good led projector.
#1 priority glass lens with good focus.
add in what your top 3 features should be for a good quality projector. What would be on your wish list?

1.. 1080 DC3 DMD
2 Large casing for quiet operation.
3 Dim the leds to increase dynamic contrast ratio.
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post #14 of 22 Old 12-11-2012, 11:18 PM
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I am in total agreement with your point...if I could get a dc3 with full black and no lamp...a big, quiet case...then, we're done!

THey probably don't do it because it would have lower margin and wouldn't have the specs...in terms of lumens. I personally think every digital I've had is too bright anyhow....

I'll be back in the digital camp if they do make one of these...for sure!

What about a 3 chipper? If dc3 is so cheap, why not make a cheap 3 chipper? It would probably look better than the jvc's, and they are hugely popular. I suppose I should answer my own question...people feel 1080p is a must! I personally don't...and I don;t think people could really tell much of a resolution difference.

3 chip dc3 with LED's....2k price point. I'm totally down!

3d - who cares
lumens - overrated
resolution - overrated
black level - very important
quietness - very important

Bring it!!
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post #15 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 10:48 AM
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I have the Q5 and beside absolute black very happy and is quiet. Rumor
has it Vivitek will lead the way with larger case high grade optics and twice the light
output of the Q5 in 9 months. Now count me in now and then again in 9 months!!!!!!

 Specialize in maximizing performance on a beer budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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post #16 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 11:30 AM
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as someone who's been interested in front projection for at least the past 12 years, yall don't know how good it is. it's pretty amazing what you can get for $1000 these days. though i do admit that we've seen a sort of lull in advancement since we achieved quality 1080p at the $1K price point. but i'm not complaining.
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post #17 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 11:46 AM
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as someone who has owned over 30 projectors of all different technologies in the last 15 years...I think i know how good it is...and I'm telling you, it ain't good enough.

the reason this thread is open is because we think it could be a whole lot better with the pieces available today...just put them together in the right mix.
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post #18 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno View Post

I am in total agreement with your point...if I could get a dc3 with full black and no lamp...a big, quiet case...then, we're done!
THey probably don't do it because it would have lower margin and wouldn't have the specs...in terms of lumens. I personally think every digital I've had is too bright anyhow....
I'll be back in the digital camp if they do make one of these...for sure!
What about a 3 chipper? If dc3 is so cheap, why not make a cheap 3 chipper? It would probably look better than the jvc's, and they are hugely popular. I suppose I should answer my own question...people feel 1080p is a must! I personally don't...and I don;t think people could really tell much of a resolution difference.
3 chip dc3 with LED's....2k price point. I'm totally down!
3d - who cares
lumens - overrated
resolution - overrated
black level - very important
quietness - very important
Bring it!!

I agree with your comment about 3D who cares and quietness but the rest I'm not so sure:

Without enough lumens I find my picture doesn't 'pop' it just looks flat and dull. I bought a lux meter and make a point of setting up to get 12-14fL peak white, as the lamp ages and I drop below this figure I have to open the iris to regain the light (though smaller drops are hard to tell).
Resolution is important to me: Even though I couldn't see the pixels when I used to zoom for 2.35:1 I still found the image looked better with more pixels (even though they are upscaled) when I bought an A lens. I still at 1.3 screen width so maybe that counts for some of it. That's with a 1080p projector too.
Black level is very important to me, which is one reason why I would struggle to chose a DLP projector full stop (single chippers give me a headache anyway due to the colour wheel/rainbow).

Anyway, it's largely moot as I can't imagine a company going to the trouble to make a 3 chip DLP with only 720p panels in it as I think they'd have a hard time selling it. People will buy on a numbers anyway and with Eshift 4K already dropping into many people's price range now then 720p isn't going to get a look in. I also think that it wouldn't work out as cheap as you'd like anyway. I think this last point is probably the answer to the OP as they already do make some decent projectors, but it's just that the price might be more than some are willing to pay. However, you can always wait until next year when some eager buyers will sell off their 'old' projectors in order to upgrade to the newest (very slightly improved) projector.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #19 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 12:20 PM
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lumens - who cares - this is in reference to manufacturers always claiming more and more and more lumens. I say, who cares? Show me the pic quality.

If I have to use a smaller screen to get a much nicer pic, I'll do it. To me, huge screens are just huge screens...they don't offer a better picture. So...lumens...I don't really care. But, I would obviously need a useable amount of light...which I'm sure they could provide.

resolution - who cares? Yes...I still stand behind this statement, although I do realize...that it may require a smaller screen. WHich again, I'm ok with.

If given the option of a 1080p single chipper or a 720p 3 chipper, I would go 720 in a heartbeat! No questions asked...and if DC3 then it would have a very good fill factor and hide screen door to a very nice screen size.

And yes...i fully realize that this simply won't happen...but, sometimes it's nice to dream smile.gif
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post #20 of 22 Old 12-12-2012, 12:48 PM
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Yes, I guess it's nice to dream, but I think my dreams would be a little different as I wouldn't accept a small screen otherwise I may as well just get a new TV: No projector can match the ANSI contrast of a flat panel and they are far less effected by the room conditions, but I do still prefer to have a projector and for me that means going large (though no where near as large as some on here).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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post #21 of 22 Old 12-13-2012, 08:07 AM
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I to have owned more projectors than I can count and LED is the way to go. You talk about
usuable Lumens and the Qumi Q5 has more than the RS2 and RS1 it replaced. 500 led lumens
is better than 900 lamp lumens calibrated on a 133 diagonal screen.

Now what we do know is pixel fill on the 720p chip is amazing no screen door from 12 feet
in my theater. I am using a A-LENS so this might help a bit with brightness and pixel fill.

I would want a 3 chip DLP led 720p with the hex chip ,Vivitek 5085 lens good enough, with local
dimming for black levels and 1000 lumens. All for under 3500.00.

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post #22 of 22 Old 12-13-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greg1292 View Post

in my theater. I am using a A-LENS so this might help a bit with brightness and pixel fill.

are you using that with the qumi ?

somebody posted about these in another

http://www.jasperdisplay.com/products/detail/253/

http://www.jasperdisplay.com/products/detail/255/

prob just another cre type projector.
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