Projector loses signal from Blu Ray. - AVS Forum
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I am hoping for some help with a long standing issue that I have.

I have the following equipment in my home cinema and configuration is below:

AMP: Denon AVR1910
BLU-RAY: Panasonic DMP-BDT310
Projector: Optoma HD20

Denon Amp has HDMI switching and all equipment is plugged in here. Only 1x HDMI out to 2 sources so i use a Cablesson SVP-12S HDMI Splitter.

When watching a BLU-RAY only, the projector seems to lose signal at around 1hr50min (always the best bit) of a movie. The projector cycles through the inputs until it sees the signal again and it happens again around 1min later.

If I feed the projector directly from the AMP I don't get the issue, only when using the splitter. I also only get the issue from the BLU-RAY player: XBOX, SKY, APPLE TV are all ok.

I have so far tried the following:

1. Swapped the splitter with a friend and have the same issue.
2. Swapped BLU-RAY
3. Plugged HDMI (15Meter Van Den HUL) directly into AMP and this resolves the problem.

I have another friend with they same kind of system who gets the same issue. It seems common to 1080p as another friend with 720p and same config is ok.

So, maybe a booster is required or some config on the BLU-RAY player but Im not sure where to go next. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks alot,
Jim.
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:14 AM
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Sounds like you are at the far end or beyond the HDMI cable length max.
Move your BRP under the projector and use a sort 10 or 15' good quality cable and see if your problem doesn't go away.. Then trouble shoot from there..
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawnyjim View Post

Hi all,
I am hoping for some help with a long standing issue that I have.
I have the following equipment in my home cinema and configuration is below:
AMP: Denon AVR1910
BLU-RAY: Panasonic DMP-BDT310
Projector: Optoma HD20
Denon Amp has HDMI switching and all equipment is plugged in here. Only 1x HDMI out to 2 sources so i use a Cablesson SVP-12S HDMI Splitter.
When watching a BLU-RAY only, the projector seems to lose signal at around 1hr50min (always the best bit) of a movie. The projector cycles through the inputs until it sees the signal again and it happens again around 1min later.
If I feed the projector directly from the AMP I don't get the issue, only when using the splitter. I also only get the issue from the BLU-RAY player: XBOX, SKY, APPLE TV are all ok.
I have so far tried the following:
1. Swapped the splitter with a friend and have the same issue.
2. Swapped BLU-RAY
3. Plugged HDMI (15Meter Van Den HUL) directly into AMP and this resolves the problem.
I have another friend with they same kind of system who gets the same issue. It seems common to 1080p as another friend with 720p and same config is ok.
So, maybe a booster is required or some config on the BLU-RAY player but Im not sure where to go next. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks alot,
Jim.

As airscapes says it's almost a 50 foot length of HDMI cable, that is pretty long especially when splitting the output but the Cablesson has a 5 volt booster to keep the signal as strong as when it is outputted by the Denon at 5 volts. When you eliminate the splitter from the signal path the problem goes away? Both you and your friend own the same splitter? Does the other display also lose signal when the HD20 does? Is the Cablesson hot to the touch at 1 hour and 50 minutes? Then possibly it's a heatsink problem in the splitter. I'm trying to figure out why it works fine for almost 2 hours and then fails. Do you have a different receiver to try?

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Old 12-31-2012, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Guys,

Yes when I take the splitter out and go direct from the Amp the problem does go away. Also, when using any other source I don't get the issue, just when using the BLURAY (not sure whether the TV loses picture too as its behind the screen but will look out for it next time I use it.

So, it makes me think that its related to the Bluray. I know that DVD's used to skip slightly when changing layers but not sure if BluRay have the same kind of formatting??
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Old 12-31-2012, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawnyjim View Post

Hi Guys,
Yes when I take the splitter out and go direct from the Amp the problem does go away. Also, when using any other source I don't get the issue, just when using the BLURAY (not sure whether the TV loses picture too as its behind the screen but will look out for it next time I use it.
So, it makes me think that its related to the Bluray. I know that DVD's used to skip slightly when changing layers but not sure if BluRay have the same kind of formatting??

BR at 1080p24Hz requires the most bandwidth Switch the BR player to output 720p and I bet your problem goes away, unless it is a heat issue as was suggested and the splitter is just dropping the signal when it gets hot enough
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Old 12-31-2012, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Good plan, wont be watching a movie tonight as out for NYE but will test it tomorrow and let you know..

Thanks for you help.
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Old 12-31-2012, 06:43 PM
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I have A C6900 Samsung bluray player and it had the same problem losing signal on my Epson 5010. I went to the Samsung C6900 Thread and mrobvious suggested turning OFF the HDMI DEEP COLOR it was on AUTO. That did the trick did not lose signal after that. So try turning OFF the HDMI COLOR MODE if that is the same as HDMI DEEP COLOR on the Samsung.

mark
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sparky7 View Post

I have A C6900 Samsung bluray player and it had the same problem losing signal on my Epson 5010. I went to the Samsung C6900 Thread and mrobvious suggested turning OFF the HDMI DEEP COLOR it was on AUTO. That did the trick did not lose signal after that. So try turning OFF the HDMI COLOR MODE if that is the same as HDMI DEEP COLOR on the Samsung.
mark

Hi Mark,

Have found that option and turned it off. Will let you know how it goes smile.gif
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Mark,

No luck, still happens... Just watched Star Wars and at 1hr54m it cycled and then did it again about 1min later....

Very strange.

Also, no heat issues with the splitter. Cool to the touch.. Will try 720p to see if that resolves it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 09:49 AM
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If I were you, I would have the TV on behind the screen to see if that gets dropped as well. If the TV does not drop, then switch the cables for the TV and Projector at the splitter (i.e. move the cable for tv from where it is plugged in the splitter to where the projector is plugged into the splitter and vise versa).
Try again and if the projector still goes off, it is most likely a cable length issue or connection at the projector. Try unplugging the cable at the projector and reseating it. Could be the connection is getting hot enough to raise resistance after the projector is on for almost 2 hours. If this turns out to be the issue, I have had some luck with VERY GENTLY squeezing the HDMI cable end with a pair of needle nose pliers (VERY slightly) to make it fit just a little tighter..
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

If I were you, I would have the TV on behind the screen to see if that gets dropped as well. If the TV does not drop, then switch the cables for the TV and Projector at the splitter (i.e. move the cable for tv from where it is plugged in the splitter to where the projector is plugged into the splitter and vise versa).
Try again and if the projector still goes off, it is most likely a cable length issue or connection at the projector. Try unplugging the cable at the projector and reseating it. Could be the connection is getting hot enough to raise resistance after the projector is on for almost 2 hours. If this turns out to be the issue, I have had some luck with VERY GENTLY squeezing the HDMI cable end with a pair of needle nose pliers (VERY slightly) to make it fit just a little tighter..

Ok cool I will have a look at that and check out the TV tonight.. Although when the kids what Blu-Ray on the TV I dont remember this happening..

Also, does the signal from the BluRay carry more data than from Sky or Xbox as I can watch these with no issues on the Projector..

Thanks again.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawnyjim View Post

Ok cool I will have a look at that and check out the TV tonight.. Although when the kids what Blu-Ray on the TV I dont remember this happening..
Also, does the signal from the BluRay carry more data than from Sky or Xbox as I can watch these with no issues on the Projector..
Thanks again.

It depends on the resolution they are outputting. If less than 1080p then yes, it is less data.
Try and do these thing in order, one at a time,to eliminate each possibility.
720p from the BR and no drop then we now know why the other devices don't drop and you have a bandwidth issue.
If tv stays on and projector goes off, then we need to see if it is the splitter so switch those cables and try again.
If the TV goes off now.. you know it is the splitter, if the projector still goes off you now know it is the cable or connections between the splitter and projector.
So don't jump head, one thing at a time to find the exact location of the issue.
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Old 01-01-2013, 05:38 PM
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i've been having problems with my k330 and hdmi dropping, but only with bluray players. 2 players and 4 different cables and they all have drop outs. i finally gave up and bought a wdtv live and haven't had a single dropout yet, even with the cheap meritline cable. i tried turning off every setting that would decrease the bandwidth and nothing fixed it. weirdly my (wife's) w710st works fine with both br players and all the cables.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok have tried all of the above and still happens. Even when the movie is paused it drops the signal... On the TV it is fine.

Have moved the cable to the second HDMI port on the projector and still get the same issue...

Will try at 720p tonight and let you know.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spawnyjim View Post

Ok have tried all of the above and still happens. Even when the movie is paused it drops the signal... On the TV it is fine.
Have moved the cable to the second HDMI port on the projector and still get the same issue...
Will try at 720p tonight and let you know.

So you switched the port between the TV and Projector at the splitter, and you got the same outcome.
Placing the BR player under the projector with a short cable works fine all day?
If the above are both true, sounds like signal strength with the long runs is the issue..
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

So you switched the port between the TV and Projector at the splitter, and you got the same outcome.
Placing the BR player under the projector with a short cable works fine all day?
If the above are both true, sounds like signal strength with the long runs is the issue..

Ok, in 720p I don't get the issues.

So the only time I do get the issues is when I am in 1080p using the splitter on Bluray only. XBOX360, Satellite and Apple TV (all in 1080p) are all fine through the splitter. All also go through my Amp.

I agree that it could be related to the long run and adding in the splitter may tip over the edge but not sure why only on Bluray. The splitter also has a small booster built in???

Confused.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:26 AM
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Are all the other devices using 1080p 24fp? Or are they 1080i (sat box) and 1080p 60fp maybe for the others? I do believe that 1080p 24FP actually has more issues than 60fp on a beyond the specs run length. Your lengths are beyond HDMI specs, stuff doesn't always work.. The signal output of the BRP may be weaker than the other devices. Just because they sell 50' cables doe not mean they will work correctly for all components at all resolutions.
You may want to spend some time in the HDMI forum as there may be better answers there.
http://www.avsforum.com/f/168/hdmi-q-a-the-one-connector-world
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:59 AM
 
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The booster is probably only boosting voltage and not correcting for capacitance, a common problem with many boosters. For HDMI and long runs the impedance might make the voltage drop enough to not be seen by the receiving device. HDMI is 5V and should work down to 4.7V according to spec. However, voltage is often not the issue. Longer runs and because of multiple connections like port savers, wall jacks etc. capacitance gets altered which alters the waveform of the signal. The altered waveform can not be recognized by the receiving device. This is the reason why there are no passive cable over ~25 feet that passes HDMI high speed spec. Because 1080P is LESS than half bandwidth of HDMI high speed spec plus a little fudge factor built into the spec we get away with longer runs currently but won't if we use a higher bandwidth like 4k2k. Capacitance can change slightly with temperature as well and if you on the edge of that digital cliff between a readable signal an not it can make a difference.

There are other problems with HDMI cabling but without test equipment the best way to for consumers to diagnose a problem is to put all the equipment near each other and test it with short cables <6ft. Although you can have a bad short cable it is less likely. If your system works with short cables you have a cabling problem, plain and simple. Forget trying to change settings and/or swap equipment. Because it works with one device and not another or if one connects the source direct to the display and works but not with the receiver or splitter does not mean you don't have a cabling problem. Testing with short cables can't be stressed enough. For longer runs you can use a signal restorer, balun or wireless solution to solve the problem.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

The booster is probably only boosting voltage and not correcting for capacitance, a common problem with many boosters. For HDMI and long runs the impedance might make the voltage drop enough to not be seen by the receiving device. HDMI is 5V and should work down to 4.7V according to spec. However, voltage is often not the issue. Longer runs and because of multiple connections like port savers, wall jacks etc. capacitance gets altered which alters the waveform of the signal. The altered waveform can not be recognized by the receiving device. This is the reason why there are no passive cable over ~25 feet that passes HDMI high speed spec. Because 1080P is LESS than half bandwidth of HDMI high speed spec plus a little fudge factor built into the spec we get away with longer runs currently but won't if we use a higher bandwidth like 4k2k. Capacitance can change slightly with temperature as well and if you on the edge of that digital cliff between a readable signal an not it can make a difference.
There are other problems with HDMI cabling but without test equipment the best way to for consumers to diagnose a problem is to put all the equipment near each other and test it with short cables <6ft. Although you can have a bad short cable it is less likely. If your system works with short cables you have a cabling problem, plain and simple. Forget trying to change settings and/or swap equipment. Because it works with one device and not another or if one connects the source direct to the display and works but not with the receiver or splitter does not mean you don't have a cabling problem. Testing with short cables can't be stressed enough. For longer runs you can use a signal restorer, balun or wireless solution to solve the problem.

Bob, this all sounds fine but the big question (at least in my mind) is why the Blu-ray player works fine for almost 2 hours before failing...and only when using the splitter. You would think problems whatever they may be would occur right away or randomly off/on during that near 2 hour period. This is the first I've heard of anyone having this type of time delayed problem.

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Old 01-06-2013, 02:19 PM
 
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That is a tough one but my guess would be heat as I have seen that happen before. Without test equipment it is trial and error. With your long cable you are probably on the edge of the digital cliff and a change of a couple picofarad of capacitance due to heat might be what makes it fall off the cliff. The question comes is it a single component, the cable or a combination of all the items in the chain? The best way to test is with short cables to rule out the cable or combination. If you can move your projector to try it it will help isolate the problem.

Think of it like tuning a radio/TV station or a satellite dish. Let's say you need 30% signal to get a good signal. Once you move the antenna/dish to a position that gets a 30% signal do you stop there? Or do you try to get a stronger signal so that it will still work on cloudy or rainy days when the signal isn't as strong? HDMI with capacitance is the same way. There is only about 100 picofarads of capacitance change before you lose signal and in a normal system probably half of that is used. By normal I mean no long runs or extra connections (i.e. port savers, wall plates, etc).
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Are all the other devices using 1080p 24fp? Or are they 1080i (sat box) and 1080p 60fp maybe for the others? I do believe that 1080p 24FP actually has more issues than 60fp on a beyond the specs run length. Your lengths are beyond HDMI specs, stuff doesn't always work.. The signal output of the BRP may be weaker than the other devices. Just because they sell 50' cables doe not mean they will work correctly for all components at all resolutions.
You may want to spend some time in the HDMI forum as there may be better answers there.
http://www.avsforum.com/f/168/hdmi-q-a-the-one-connector-world

Hi Airscapes,

I went back to 1080p and disabled 24fp, no issues works fine. So must be an issue with the Splitter..
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

Bob, this all sounds fine but the big question (at least in my mind) is why the Blu-ray player works fine for almost 2 hours before failing...and only when using the splitter. You would think problems whatever they may be would occur right away or randomly off/on during that near 2 hour period. This is the first I've heard of anyone having this type of time delayed problem.

Hi guys,

Thanks for the detailed analysis here, much appreciated.

As above, I turned off 24fp and didn't get the issue last night. Being in Telecomms and working with transmission I do see alot of these kind of error bursts that are unexplainable and usually caused by electronics, in this case probably the splitter vs cable length. I just didn't really click that HDMI uses the same kind of technology.

I am thinking that I need to either source a splitter that actually boots the signal (even maybe regenerates it), buy an Amp that has x2HDMI out or the cheap option which is to leave 24fp turned off for now?? I done really want to throw money at this just now but am open to other suggestions?

Thanks again all for you comments and help with this. At least we have narrowed it to one area so I can stop beating my head against the wall!!!
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Thanks for the detailed analysis here, much appreciated.

As above, I turned off 24fp and didn't get the issue last night. Being in Telecomms and working with transmission I do see alot of these kind of error bursts that are unexplainable and usually caused by electronics, in this case probably the splitter vs cable length. I just didn't really click that HDMI uses the same kind of technology.

I am thinking that I need to either source a splitter that actually boots the signal (even maybe regenerates it), buy an Amp that has x2HDMI out or the cheap option which is to leave 24fp turned off for now?? I done really want to throw money at this just now but am open to other suggestions?

Thanks again all for you comments and help with this. At least we have narrowed it to one area so I can stop beating my head against the wall!!!

Ok scrub that, it now happens with Sky and everything that is 1080p. Must be the splitter and cable length.

Can anyone recommend any good splitters please?
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:09 AM
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check monoprice, and read the reviews for ones in your price range/needs.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:25 PM
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I also am having the same problem but not using a splitter.

Optoma hd23
Audioquest chocolate hdmi 3meters
Sony bluray


TV and xbox360 work fine but when I watch a bluray it loses signal and takes a few seconds to get picture back. I've also noticed that if I fast forward by chapter it loses signal.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:47 AM
 
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Change the audio quest to something that has been tested.
http://www.dpllabs.com/page/dpl-approved-products
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:54 PM
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i posted here about a few observations. it seems that devices that can get the resolution of a device and adjust accordingly have this drop out. devices that have a fixed output have no drop out. i'm not 100% about it, but it's been what i've noticed for the last few weeks.
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Old 05-13-2013, 10:06 AM
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Dear all please keep in mind that wifi routers located close to yor av reciever can cause hdmi loss .In my case i am using an asus ac66u acting as a bridge to the acces point and it is a 2.4 and 5 ghz router with ac compatability.i suspect its the 5 ghz that is causing the untimely dropouts in other words interferance such as snowy picture then a black out ,until system regains its handshake from my epson 8350 projector to my pioneer 1021 av reciever.if i turn the router off which is about 2 meters away from the av reciever of i get no hdmi drop outs.And my hdmi cable runs for a good12 meters.
So yeah make sure wifi routers nearby are not the cause of your problems
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