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post #91 of 219 Old 06-11-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Bahama View Post

A 32 degree field of view is required for someone with 20/20 vision to fully resolve the detail in a 1080p image. That is an exact parameter.
A 21.33 degree field of view is required for someone with 20/20 vision to fully resolve the detail in a 720p image. That is an exact parameter.
82.7% of statistics are made up on the spot, and in my experience, very few people find a THX optimal recommendation (resulting in a 40 degree field of view) too small. In fact, for the VAST majority of my customers, it's a hard sell because they think it's going to be way too big. Sure, it's different among AVS members. Personally, I prefer a 50 degree FOV (mid-cinema equivalent).
Yes, THX/SMPTE minimum and maximum seating distances were created precisely for that purpose - but optimal is not.
The numbers that don't add up here are a 108" screen from 14 feet away.
Aw shucks, I guess you're right. I'm sure the scientists and engineers at THX and SMPTE just pull those numbers out of their asses. They're probably just numbers snobs. No way they've based those recommendations on scientific studies on the immersion effect, etc.

I really don't understand how 20/20 vision plays into the field of view argument for field of view while watching movies. You could have 20/20 tunnel vision, and be able to" resolve" only the center 1/3 of a 32% field. I have friend that have to swing their heads back and forth to see the whole screen at the movie theater from the back row. 20/? Vision tests are static, narrow focus tests to determine how far straight in front of you you can resolve objects, mostly letters. There are a lot of variables in human vision that determine what optimal viewing distance and width of screen works. THX and others are general guidelines. Conditioning factors in as to the immersive feeling too. if you are used to watching a 26"screen from 15' distance, then upgrade to a 50" from 12', you tend to dart your eyes around the image until you adjust and let the whole picture come to you at once. Going to a 120"would be a bigger adjustment, hence the "whoa" factor.
This is why some people enjoy a 120"screen from 10-12'viewing position, and some can't enjoy anything larger that 84"from the same distance, and all the engineers at THX or anyplace else absolutely can not say if either individual is or is not "resolving"a full 1080p image, unless said engineers test those individuals.

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post #92 of 219 Old 06-11-2013, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Donny: Sorry to see you leave. Thanks for your thoughts and input. Come on back.

As for painting, the room has long been overdue for it. The stains on the ceiling and walls is quite a lot. One of the reasons I like the dark colour paint option is to hide the future smoke stain that are sure to come back. I agree with not going black but something dark should look good. What that something is is the question. Though I may have just decided on espresso bean for the colour. Whole room same.

Projector needs to be ceiling mounted. It's going to be in the way on the floor. Who knows what can happen to it. Bumped into, someone will end end spilling on it, etc. Falling on it when doing a touchdown dance drinking during football season biggrin.gif

I can't tell you the last time I've been to a theatre. I hate it. The lines, the large crowds, the cost, etc. Much rather watch at home. I can smoke, pause, etc.

Going to see the projector on Friday. Guess I should before I just buy one. Hoping I'm not affected by RBE. That would change things.

Any suggestion on a good shallow mount?
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post #93 of 219 Old 06-11-2013, 08:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm never going to understand where the mount and projector needs to go in correlation with screen frown.gif

Lets's say I go with 115" screen. I get this from the Benq calculator:



The bottom of the screen will be at 22" from the floor. The couch on the right wall will be a small issue when lying down. Not sure so how much an issue when sitting. The arm of the couch is 24" from the floor. The sceen will be 50" larger diagonally than I currently have. The picture says I mount the projector 9"7" from the screen. The 5" space at the top to the ceiling is going to be frame. The screen is 100" wide. Since wall to wall is 128" and I want equal space on each side for speaker am I correct in mounting the sceen to so that I have 14" on each side to the wall? Assuming yes, does the projector need to be in the middle of the screen so at 64" from the wall? Now, according to the picture it shows Projector Position Distance from the ceiling at 3". The Projector is 4.1", not including mount. Not sure how shallow a mount I can get but lets say it adds two inches. That gives a projector position of 6.1" from ceiling. So 3.1" more that what the calculator says. How can this not be an issue when watching?

Sorry for continuing to harp on this but I just cant get a grasp on this.
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post #94 of 219 Old 06-11-2013, 10:41 PM
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6'5" ceilings and you are going to hang a pj ? I think that even with the lowest profile mount the bottom of your pj will be 8" lower than the ceiling so 5'9" and I presume in a potential walking path in the room , hope you and all your friends are under 5'6" and never wear heels. I can't get the numbers you state in the benq calc. minimum room height won't go below 6'7" for me . You said your screen would be 100" wide , that would be 114" dia. and 4'8" tall . add that to your 22" off the ground and the 5" frame at the top and you have 6'11" . If I read your first post correctly and your ceiling is 6'5" then figure 4'8" + 6" to the center of the lens on a short mount + 3" frame for the screen , that leaves you 12" from the bottom of the screen to the floor . I personally don't think this screen size is going to work with your configuration , especially laying on the couch.
The pj lens has to be centered to the screen center , side to side so in your example if the center of the screen is going to be 64" from the left wall , then the center of the lens has to be 64" off the left wall too.

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post #95 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I checked back on my first post and noticed the measurement error. I fixed that first post but here are the actual dimensions. Floor to ceiling is 7ft (84"). Side to side is 10'8" (128"). Length is 20ft

Acaras: I originally thought 110" diagonal. Then thought maybe 104-106. Then found a nice FF screen at 108". Some said go bigger and just put the screen lower to the floor. I don't think it works.

So back to 108" screen. Screen has 5" frame. This is what I get from BenQ



The way I read it is: Projector goes 9 ft from the screen. Bottom of screen is 24" off the floor (frame ends 19" off floor). Top of screen is 7" from ceiling (frame ends 2" from ceiling). Screen is 94" wide (104' with frame). The centre of the sceen is 47". To get the screen centered on the wall I put the edge of the frame at 12" off from the side. The edge of the frame at the other wall woud end 12" off the side. So the mount has to put the centre of the lens 64" from either side of the wall or in other words kind of right in the middle of the room. Am I good so far. Now for the part that that has my head spinning. The picture shows the projector position distance from ceiling at 4". I have 7" from the top of the screen to top of ceiling. The mount is going to add some distance depending on how shallow it is. Let's say I get a 3' mount. Does this work? Can i even get a 3" mount? So confused, still.

Thanks
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post #96 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 06:10 AM
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108" is the very max you could possibly squeeze in as it only leaves 2-3" for the mounting plate, you'll need to affix a mounting plate pretty much directly to the ceiling and projector with no actual mount. Yes, it's possible but it's hard to align when it's installed. This means you will have no mount, but just a plate to the ceiling or a special flush mount. I don't know which flush mounts will work or if you will need to just buy a plate and screw it directly into the ceiling (honestly this is a tight install). People have done custom setups with only the base plate into a ceiling plate, I have installed a few projectors, but I've never tried this before, but there are people in teh forum that have done it successfully.

All this said, you can actually fudge an installation by an inch or two without using keystone and gain another 1/2 to 2 inches, depends how picky you are. Basically that means a tiny bit of the border will overflow onto the black frame of the screen.

A 4" clearance between the PJ and ceiling is more realistic to be able to find compatible flush mounts, otherwise you may have to have them install a plate directly (which is really no mount). If you can, just drop the bottom of the screen down to 1 ft 10 in.
The frame size doesn't matter since your top of screen to ceiling is > your frame size anyways.

Since your ceiling is 7 feet high, in order to make this simple I changed the Offset to 3% to be safe (you don't want to be at 2.5% of the lens shift as that is too close to the max).



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post #97 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 07:55 AM
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Something like this.http://pics.omnux.com/Misc-4805ProjectorMount would probably be the slimmest adjustable mount you could do. Use 1/2"mdf and you could get pretty close to 3" from ceiling to lens center. Cut out the drywall where you want to mount it and replace that with the top plate of the mount and you can get 2.5". Use carriage bolts for the adjusters so the plates can have close to zero clearance between them.
Coder guy, am I correct that the distance from the ceiling measurement on the class ( Ben and yours) is measuring to the lens center, so your have to add the distance from top of PJ case to lens center? So with a 3" mount you would be at 5" for the ceiling to PJ measurement?

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post #98 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 08:45 AM
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My current calculator has a bug with the mounting pole length when a projector is near the top of the ceiling like the w1070, it can improperly show the mounting pole length. The bugs are fixed in the upcoming version. You can get around the bug by being careful how you use the slider (slider goes down too far), but it is what it is. It does add in a Lens Center to Base distance to the length, but it may or may not show up correctly.

Here are the numbers done manually, if the projector has a minimum offset of 2.5% of 100" diagonal (about 2.7" for 108"), let's just round it up to 3". So if his projector is 2 feet above the floor (24 inches), and the screen height is about 53" high, that means the top of screen is 77" above the floor or 7" below the ceiling. If the PJ has a 3" minimum offset, and a 2" Lens Center to base, that leaves only 2" left for mounting (and that doesn't even include any mounting plate thickness).

84"ceiling height - 77" top of screen above floor = 7" LEFT - 3" Offset = 4" Left - 2" Lens Center to Base = 2" FINAL


His biggest problem is going to be the thickness of the mounting plates with a flush mount, though as I said he can fudge it 1/2 inch or more if he isn't too picky on overflow of border.

He would benefit by lowering the screen to 1ft 10 inches above the floor as he will have an easier time flush mounting it.



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post #99 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So if i really wanted the 108" screen it would be best to just lower the screen so the bottom is 22" off the floor or better to go with a 106" screen at 24' off the floor or a 104" screen with 24" off the floor and have even more room to negotiate with the mount? Or go with the 106 or104 and still go 22" off the floor? Any suggestion for a good shallow mount.

Thanks as always.
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post #100 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 10:15 AM
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If it were me, I'd go the 108" and make it work, but it's up to you.

104" will fit easily with many flush mounts, 106" will still be tight but will probably work, 108" is going to probably need a custom flush mount that someone just drills a plate straight into the ceiling.
I don't know, I'd ask your installer how good he is at this... If you get a pro-installer, he can probably fit the 108" with a custom base mount.

Remember there is a fudge factor you can use, but like I said depends how picky.

You are also so close to the tolerances and error margins (1 inch), that we cannot even be sure either way, it's impossible to know for sure until you do it. What I can say is though that it will work if someone is good at installing, whether or not you have them use a fudge factor just depends if they end up getting too frustrated where they give up getting it perfectly aligned.



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post #101 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 04:14 PM
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Sometimes the adventure of getting there is greater than the destination it's self. biggrin.gif

Maybe one day someone would invent some paint or some type of substance that would react to light and change color as you turn the lights on or off.
wink.gif
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post #102 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

My current calculator has a bug with the mounting pole length when a projector is near the top of the ceiling like the w1070, it can improperly show the mounting pole length. The bugs are fixed in the upcoming version. You can get around the bug by being careful how you use the slider (slider goes down too far), but it is what it is. It does add in a Lens Center to Base distance to the length, but it may or may not show up correctly.

Here are the numbers done manually, if the projector has a minimum offset of 2.5% of 100" diagonal (about 2.7" for 108"), let's just round it up to 3". So if his projector is 2 feet above the floor (24 inches), and the screen height is about 53" high, that means the top of screen is 77" above the floor or 7" below the ceiling. If the PJ has a 3" minimum offset, and a 2" Lens Center to base, that leaves only 2" left for mounting (and that doesn't even include any mounting plate thickness).

84"ceiling height - 77" top of screen above floor = 7" LEFT - 3" Offset = 4" Left - 2" Lens Center to Base = 2" FINAL


His biggest problem is going to be the thickness of the mounting plates with a flush mount, though as I said he can fudge it 1/2 inch or more if he isn't too picky on overflow of border.

He would benefit by lowering the screen to 1ft 10 inches above the floor as he will have an easier time flush mounting it.

Thanks for wok the help and clarification Coder, I was going off memory for your calc. And forgot it listed ceiling to base and lens to base separately. I experienced the bugs you talked about right after I posted. When I input the op's numbers the pole length put the PJ lens center 2" below the to edge of the screen. It also had lens center to mounting base at 4 inches. Thank you for building the calc, I really like the interface and I'm looking forward to the updated calc. You've done a ton of work to assist the community with this, thank you.

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post #103 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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For sure I'll be picky about about overflow on the border. I want everything to look perfect.

Who knows how good the installer is. I'm not sure who the installer is yet. It may be better to get a smaller screen just to be safe. Plus, I do a lot of lying on the sofa so I think 24" from the floor makes the most sense. The sofa is down the right wall and the arm of the couch is going to get in the way. 24" off the floor will also help with the centre channel speaker and equipment like the AV receiver, etc. I can place a small stand beneath the frame of the sceen, so I have like 19" for that stuff. So having said that were now choosing between 106" or 104". Using the Benq calculator I get the following:

106: Top of screen to ceiling = 8". Projector position, Distance from ceiling = 6"
104: Top of screen to ceiling = 9". Projector position, Distance from ceiling = 7"

What mount would work for each? Keep in mind I may not be able to get the Chief RPMAU up here at a reasonable price. Amazon here has it for like $235+ tax. Yikes!

Thanks
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post #104 of 219 Old 06-12-2013, 07:32 PM
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Check and shop eBay for the Chief RPMAU - it comes up used/open box from time to time.

Really, this is all up to you and with a screen this size a half inch isn't going to kill you. The reason that projector screens have black borders is to deal with minor flaws in the image that is delivered to the screen.

Keep in mind the LENS of the projector must be on center to the screen, and since the lens of the W1070 is not in the center of the projector - the mount will not be in the center of the room! No mount 64" off the wall, but several inches to the left of center so that the lens is on center exactly.

It's nice to talk about a 'flush' mount, but unless you have some serious technical skill in setting up a projector, this is just a terrible way to go. Good installers use good mounts - for good reason. An exact setup is simply not easy to achieve without the right equipment.

Really, we are talking about an inch or two - not a foot or two, so any decisions you make should be done while laying on your couch, looking at your wall, and considering what impact it will really have.


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post #105 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 03:07 AM
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Peerless PRG-UNV has been mentioned as, easy to work with, and might be found for around $100. I'd just mount the pj, get it all leveled/squared away, then put up a screen where the image fell. LOL
So did we decide a pj would work for you? smile.gif
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post #106 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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jnabq: Go big or go home is the motto. So yes, pj all the way smile.gif With the peerless and the desire for all to be perfect what size screen? Trying to figure out how big and make everything as perfect as possible is the fun part.

AV: Your flush mount comment is exactly why I'm getting this done professionally. I can barely measure properly, can you imagine me mounting a projector and screen biggrin.gif

So grateful for all the replies in this thread. I'm learning so much though I am slow in understanding it all. Going to visit Eastporters tomorrow to see projector and screen and talk with them. They may even be the ones installing all this. Hopefully they can make a 108" screen work.

Lights, electrical and wire running in a few weeks. The electrician is going to run HDMI + other cables from the ceiling area where the projector will go, thru the ceiling and down to the area where the AV equipment will go. Other than 2 HDMI cables what elese do I need? In that vein, when playing with the Benq calculator to determine the distance from projector to sceen should I be using anything more than a 0 zoom? I see that adding zoom allows the projector to be farther from the screen. Is there a benefit in that?

Thanks again
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post #107 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 02:56 PM
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Is this room a basement with open floor joists or a living room upstairs ?
To bad you can't punch a hole into the sheetrock above and see if there are floor joist to mount a projector mount and make it more recessed.
Would be nice to make the whole projector go back up into the celing with your finished watching with a button.biggrin.gif
6 months ago I managed to get a Inland 109 inch screen for $ 65 with 1.2 gain at Micro Center.
Have you thought about using accoustical tiles with cloth over them to use on the celings instead of painting it black ?
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post #108 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 03:28 PM
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Run at least 3 cat-6 cables to the projector along with whatever else you end up running. Don't overpay for cables.


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post #109 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLPProjectorfan View Post

Is this room a basement with open floor joists or a living room upstairs ?
To bad you can't punch a hole into the sheetrock above and see if there are floor joist to mount a projector mount and make it more recessed.
Would be nice to make the whole projector go back up into the celing with your finished watching with a button.biggrin.gif
6 months ago I managed to get a Inland 109 inch screen for $ 65 with 1.2 gain at Micro Center.
Have you thought about using accoustical tiles with cloth over them to use on the celings instead of painting it black ?

If you are suggesting acoustic panels in a drop ceiling would think that would just make screen placement harder, not to mention lowering a 7' ceiling even more, and fitting the panels into the grid with only an inch or two clearance above is a major PITA.

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post #110 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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DLP: This is a basement in a 60 year old house. There is likely space above the ceiling and below the kitchen floor above. I do know there is no insulation up there as things can get loud over my head. So maybe it could be mounted more recessed. I guess I'll find out when the electrician is here installing the recessed lighting. The projector needs to be in place at all times. This won't be just for movies but rather a TV replacement. It will get like 60hrs of use per week

AV: What are the cat-6 cables for? Equipment will run to AVR and then 1 HDMI cable to projector. Running the second one for possible future use. Got 2 30ft Redmere cables for that. Also figure I need to run RCA audio from projector. Anything else?

Anyone got anything so say about using zoom on the projector?

Thanks
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post #111 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 06:57 PM
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You do not need audio from the projector.

HDMI to your A/V receiver
A/V receiver HDMI to the projector
HDMI cable fails - Replace and use cat-6 over Ethernet extender.
Technology changes, HDMI is obsolete, requirement for something different that you don't know about.

You always run the proper cables in any difficult installation so you don't kick yourself five years down the road for not running them. This means spare cables & future cables - or conduit. Conduit is a nice alternative, then you just run one HDMI cable and call it a day.


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post #112 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 08:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So 3 of these http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8121&seq=1&format=2 and 3 30ft cat6 or just the cables for now and get the extenders when/if necessary? Probably best to get one extender right away.
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post #113 of 219 Old 06-13-2013, 08:19 PM
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If the run between the PJ location and your a/v components is difficult ( need to drill holes through joist) it would be a good idea to run what was suggested by AV in conduit , then run a secondary conduit parallel to it , with a pull string in it . That way you are guaranteed that you can pull in any future needs , or replacement HDMI if the first fails . Your electrician can install the runs when he comes out , and the cost of the second conduit will be minimal . If you never want to have to punch a hole in drywall , then run the two conduits no matter what .

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post #114 of 219 Old 06-14-2013, 10:19 AM
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No not a whole drop ceiling but separate panels wrapped in cloth tacked to or fastened to the ceiling.
Sort of like acoustic panels on walls in a theator room.
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post #115 of 219 Old 06-14-2013, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Went to see projectors and screens today:

Projectors: Didn't have the 1070 on display but I was able to see the w7000 in action. I didn't notice much if any RBE so that's good. I guess my eyes are not as sensitive to the effect. Dave at Eastporters says he saw the RBE. From what I understand the W1070 does a better job at minmizing RBE so even better. Also checked out the JVC x35. That thing is nice but out of my price range at current time. 3D is cool smile.gif He did suggest the W7000 might be a better choice as it does better black level performance

Screen: Checked out the Elunevision Reference 4K, at 108". Nice picture. No hotspotting. Whites were white everywhere on screen. Couldn't see screen texutre. I like it, though the 5' frame may be a bit much. I guess I'll get used to it. We discussed the ceiling height issue and the mounting of the projector close to the ceiling. Was told they would use an Omni mount ( http://www.omnimountpro.com/Product/Projector_Mounts/PRO-PJT/ ) and it would not be an issue putting a 108" screen and having all look good and done correctly. They do offer installation service which is good since if I did any of the installation it woud be a disaster.

Is there a compelling reason to go with a W7000 or even an Epson 3020 over the W1070 or just get the 1070 and upgrade a few years down the road to something better? Maybe by then the JVC and comparable projectors will be more in my price range and who knows what 4K projectors will cost then.
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post #116 of 219 Old 06-14-2013, 12:34 PM
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how far away were you standing when you viewed the 4k screen? my screen is definitely the weak link now, and while i'm not in a position to upgrade right now, i'd like to have a running plan so i'll be able to order quickly when the time comes. funny how i never noticed screen texture with my uber cheap, bundled in white screen. only noticed it from my front row(about 11-12feet) with the grey screen and 720p projector, and now it's clear as day from even my back row(17-18feet) with the 1080p projector. and here i thought i just wasn't sensitive to screen texture issues...

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post #117 of 219 Old 06-14-2013, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Whatever you do, do not go soley based on my word. I don't really have a reference as I have not seen other screen. It was the 1.0 white gain screen. I was sitting like 10ft away and it look great. When he put up other samples against the white background I could see what I thought was screen texture. Obviously the samples were intended to do that. Standing like inches in front of the screen with nothing viewing the texture wasn't too visible. Then again, I'm not even sure what I'm looking for.
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post #118 of 219 Old 06-15-2013, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Surprise, surprise! More questions about projector, mount, and screen size. Below is a measurement pic of the mount:


The way I read it is that the mount is 3.6". Add that to the 4.1" projector and we get 7.7". If the screen is 2ft from the floor I have 7" to the ceiling. Do I worry about the .7" and move the sreen to 1'11" so I have 8" to top of ceiling? In that vein, should I get a smaller screen to be better ready for a larger projector in the future? Any thought on this mount (see post 115)? It will save me like $90 over getting the chief mount?

Thanks as always
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post #119 of 219 Old 06-15-2013, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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!@#$%& me!!!!!!! I have to much time on my hands and thinking is throwing me.

Lets say I get the w1070 and mount it at 10'3" from the screen. All is great until I upgrade. Then the mount has to come down and cables won't be long enough as a better projector is going to need to be mounted further away from screen. I was hoping it would be as easy as just swapping out projectors. So, do I mount the w1070 at like 11'9" using no zoom as per the projector central site and when I upgrade mount the new projector in the same place but use lot's of zoom or just live with the fact the when I upgrade I will have to move the mount and rewire?

Is it better to use some zoom when mounting the Benqw1070? How much is to much zoom for other projectors? As per PC calculator at 11'9" JVC, Sony, etc. would have to be somewhat close to max zoom.

Just when I thought things were good I'm back to being confused.
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post #120 of 219 Old 06-15-2013, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squigly1 View Post

!@#$%& me!!!!!!! I have to much time on my hands and thinking is throwing me.

Lets say I get the w1070 and mount it at 10'3" from the screen. All is great until I upgrade. Then the mount has to come down and cables won't be long enough as a better projector is going to need to be mounted further away from screen. I was hoping it would be as easy as just swapping out projectors. So, do I mount the w1070 at like 11'9" using no zoom as per the projector central site and when I upgrade mount the new projector in the same place but use lot's of zoom or just live with the fact the when I upgrade I will have to move the mount and rewire?

Is it better to use some zoom when mounting the Benqw1070? How much is to much zoom for other projectors? As per PC calculator at 11'9" JVC, Sony, etc. would have to be somewhat close to max zoom.

Just when I thought things were good I'm back to being confused.

Dude, you need to chill. You haven't mounted the Benq and now you're worrying about some unknown upgrade in the future? You're going to give yourself a stroke before you watch anything if you keep this up.
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