Quiet LED projectors that are not DLP? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 42 Old 05-29-2013, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone know of a quiet LED projector that is non (single-chip) DLP - e.g. LCD / LCoS / D-ILA - and is under say $2,000?

The LG PA70G / PA75U are exactly what I need, except I see RBE (Rainbow Effect) on them a whole lot. Those are basically the same model (one has a few more features not related to picture), 700 lumens, but IMHO the best part about them is that you can set them to less then that (maximum "eco mode") and they are super-quiet (and still plenty bright for use in a dark room).

I can't find anything via the Projector Central website, hoping there is something that they missed or that is very new...
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post #2 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 02:45 AM
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Lots of cheap junk out there, nothing real I can think of except this but it's only 720p and pretty old by today standards.

Are all the new laser projectors dlp? I can't remember now.
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post #3 of 42 Old 05-30-2013, 03:46 AM
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there was one that looked good at the time I bought my projector but it is 768x1024 res (square pixels) it was the Samsung f10m and there is a thread on it on this forum, quiet, advanced 3lcd 1000 lumens. There is also the cre x1000 but im not to sure about that one and there is also a very large thread on here for you to read.
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post #4 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Re: Amber's link to the SiVal iSiVal MINI Projector MP720B1 - it is indeed what I asked for, a non-DLP projector (LCoS).

However it looks like I didn't know what to ask for...

The newest Amazon review says "The only thing I really don't like about this projector is when the frames of the movie move fast, you see these momentary rainbow colors. I find it bothersome and sometimes unbearable."

It turns out that what I really want isn't a certain display technology, but instead anything with three light paths...

At http://www.avsforum.com/t/1426244/rainbow-artifacts-with-lcos from Sisyphus:

"""
It isn't DLP or LCOS specifically that generates color separation/rainbow artifacts. It is the speed of the color wheel or for LED the rate the LEDs are pulsing on/off. Any single chip DLP or LCoS that is monochrome will require a cycling red, green, and blue light source. If the colors cycle fast enough, rainbows will be minimal; however, if they cycle slower, rainbows will be more visible.

3 chip projectors with 3 LCoS, LCD, or DLP panels have separate red, green, and blue light sources that are on constantly don't generate rainbows (usually).
"""

So sadly it looks like anyone who is really sensitive to rainbow effects and wants a somewhat light and portable LED projector at this point is sort of screwed.

Going to go see if there are any portable 3 x LCD or 3 x LCoS projectors with inexpensive bulbs...
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post #5 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 09:07 AM
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Why I'd bulb cost so important?

My projector is outdated, I have yet to change the bulb.
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post #6 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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It will be on almost every day for almost the whole day. With 20,000 hours (LED), that's about 3 years with no additional costs.

Based on quick research, it looks like you can get 3000 hours of normal bulb life from a lower-end projector for around $150 (using non-OEM lamp modules that may be sketchy). So for 3 years that's about an extra $1000 above the initial projector cost, plus a lot of annoyance, and the possibility of messing something up each time, or paying big $ to a pro to do the bulb modules changes.

So now I'm guessing I'll end up going with a Samsung f10m if I can find a new one or an older one with not so many hours on it... I'd really wanted something less bulky and heavy than my current Panasonic PT-AE700U for the occasional times it'll be moved around / taken on the road, but the f10m seems to be the best choice given current options available in the market.

Thanks, fido dido! smile.gif
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post #7 of 42 Old 05-31-2013, 11:43 AM
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Lots of heat in those micro projectors, and they are built with cost in mind.

Not so sure you will get 20k hours out of one either.
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post #8 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 12:34 AM
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If you read through the led projector topics, many do not make it to the magical 20k life. Heat, cheap capacitors, the list goes on. $499 projectors are not built to last, I would expect to maybe get two years out of it and thats it. Anything more is gravy. Here is a tip, ignore what they put on the box, it's mostly marketing bs.
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post #9 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru64 View Post

Sorry but this is an extremely dumb question, I can use an LED projector for eight hours per day for things like gaming, web surfing

You could, but it's like using a spoon to shovel. I use my home theater projector, in my theater, to watch theatrical movies.

For web browsing I use a 1080p computer monitor, actually, 2 of them. Gaming on a low latency flat screen, and I can leave the lights on. It's great!
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post #10 of 42 Old 06-01-2013, 02:43 PM
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LED projectors are starting to become more common for a reason and LED lights have proven for more than forty years that they have a very long life span compared to other light sources.

Using LEDs is the biggest advancement in projector technology and this not guessing something, it's a fact.

If I pay $900 or more for something that I can only use two to three hours per day for about one year then this is worse than burning money and I'd rather get a TV instead.

LED projectors completely wipe out this insane limit and now they can replace actual TVs, albeit in low light setting.

I want something that can replace my TV and give me a 100" screen, this is impossible with non-LED projectors.

I can game and watch shows for hours without living in constant fear of quickly burning out the non-LED bulb.

Like I said I want a projector to replace my TV so I can get as much fun and use of it as I can from a TV but on a giant screen so three hours of fun with non-LED vs eight hours with LED, the choice is too easy.
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post #11 of 42 Old 06-02-2013, 06:19 PM
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Why would you be in fear of your projector lol. You people are crazy.

Not so sure why the reliability of these cheap led's is unquestioned.
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post #12 of 42 Old 06-03-2013, 11:57 PM
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does the projector have to be small and portable ?

I've been using crt projectors for close to 10 years now and I am quite happy with their image quality and cost of owner ship.
The biggest drawback is the mounting, usually to a ceiling, weight, usually 1 to 2 hundred pounds, and physical size.
My only reasons for wanting to upgrade is to obtain 4k images and 3d effects.

But at $5,000 and up, I'll need to find a rich lady, win a lottery or both.
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post #13 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amber Ale View Post

If you read through the led projector topics, many do not make it to the magical 20k life. Heat, cheap capacitors, the list goes on. $499 projectors are not built to last, I would expect to maybe get two years out of it and thats it. Anything more is gravy. Here is a tip, ignore what they put on the box, it's mostly marketing bs.

I have been reading the LG LED threads and I don't get they we have a lot of things going wrong with them. The only thing some complained about is if you get unfocused model, just exchange it for focused model. Plenty of bulb based PJ have more things going wrong, since I do read the bulb based PJ's too.

It's too bad the OP had the problem with the RBE with the LG pa70g, other than that, he liked it. I am sensitive to RBE and with my screen and room setup I don't see RBE with the pa70g. But some are more sensitive to it than others, I wish him well in getting a model that he can view without RBE.
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post #14 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

I have been reading the LG LED threads and I don't get they we have a lot of things going wrong with them. The only thing some complained about is if you get unfocused model, just exchange it for focused model. Plenty of bulb based PJ have more things going wrong, since I do read the bulb based PJ's too.

It's too bad the OP had the problem with the RBE with the LG pa70g, other than that, he liked it. I am sensitive to RBE and with my screen and room setup I don't see RBE with the pa70g. But some are more sensitive to it than others, I wish him well in getting a model that he can view without RBE.

? Are the pa70s even a year old? How can you all them ultra reliable in such a short time?

The OP is talking about running them 8 hours per day, will take almost 7 years to hit 20k hours. Long way to go. When you have companies putting in plastic lenses, I don't think it's a stretch to say they probably sourced other low cost components. The jury is definitely still out.
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post #15 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 07:50 AM
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Calm down , bro. I was saying about LG LED projectors and commenting that I didn't see many people having problem with them except for focus issue. I then mentioned the lg70g because the OP got it and liked it, except for RBE. And I hoped he got model that would be good for him.

Seems like you think your viewpoint is "right" and some of our's are "wrong". Maybe just look at it as we see it a little differently based on our experiences and research. Your point is a valid viewpoint, but so are our viewpoints valid too.

I'm not sure there is data to support either viewpoint. There are plenty of cheap hdtv's and very expensive ones, and they problaby break down about the same, or it could depend on company making them. LG seems like a good company. But no-name models I wouldn't trust in hdtv's or LED PJ's. So many of us are talking "name brand" PJ's and not "white van scam" types. ok?
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post #16 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

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Calm down , bro. I was saying about LG LED projectors and commenting that I didn't see many people having problem with them except for focus issue. I then mentioned the lg70g because the OP got it and liked it, except for RBE. And I hoped he got model that would be good for him.

Seems like you think your viewpoint is "right" and some of our's are "wrong". Maybe just look at it as we see it a little differently based on our experiences and research. Your point is a valid viewpoint, but so are our viewpoints valid too.

I'm not sure there is data to support either viewpoint. There are plenty of cheap hdtv's and very expensive ones, and they problaby break down about the same, or it could depend on company making them. LG seems like a good company. But no-name models I wouldn't trust in hdtv's or LED PJ's. So many of us are talking "name brand" PJ's and not "white van scam" types. ok?

I can't get any calmer, what exactly is my viewpoint lol. They need a sub 500 dollar section for you guys to troll with your business projectors.

Sorry OP for implying you might not get 20k hours out of projector created with cost as one of the top priorities. I am apparently dumb and jaded. Product reliability should remain unquestioned.
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post #17 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Guru64 View Post

100% agree with rgtaa!

smile.gif

Why are you pushing these cheap portable projectors so hard? Which one are you currently using lol?
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post #18 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:28 AM
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I had a PA75U, I got to see its insides and learn everything about it.

The picture was very impressive but the focus issue was not tolerable.

Some of us like these LED projectors and you don't, that's fine but at least accept that we don't have to agree with you.

I will no longer respond about this, let's stay back on topic.
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post #19 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

Why are you pushing these cheap portable projectors so hard? Which one are you currently using lol?

Verge2
There are 2 groups in this under 3,000 section. A LED PJ group and a Bulb based group.

The OP got the pa70g and liked it except for RBE, so us LED guys were just giving our condolences to him. We hope he finds something that doesn't give him RBE.
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post #20 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru64 View Post

I had a PA75U, I got to see it's insights and learn everything about it.

The picture was very impressive but the focus issue was not tolerable.

Some of us like these LED projectors and you don't, that's fine but at least accept that we don't have to agree with you.

I will no longer respond about this, let's stay back on topic.

Oh I think they are awesome actually. Way to keep an open mind. But I don't expect to automatically get something that will last to that type of abuse. Especially a first or second generation product. How many have you returned to the store?
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post #21 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

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Stop it already. There are 2 groups in this under 3,000 section. A LED PJ group and a Bulb based group. Unless you have been following the LED threads like I do and a number of us do, butt out. Is that clear enough for you.

The OP got the pa70g and liked it except for RBE, so us LED guys were just giving our condolences to him. We hope he finds something that doesn't give him RBE.

You are not for 399 dollar LG led's (I picked up the pa70g from fry's for 399). We heard you the first time. I don't care what you believe, and others voiced the same viewpoint. But you are free to share it all you want. Go for it. smile.gif

The OP was asking specifically about bulbs and bulb life, I responded and was called dumb. If there is anybody that needs to keep their opinions to themselves, it would be you.(I group you both together, you sound like the same person). You guys have officially trolled the OPs thread in spectacular fanboy fashion.
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post #22 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:42 AM
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Like I mentioned, LG does have a out of box focus problem. You just got to get one with good focus and you are good to go. Also, LG comes with 2 year warranty which is nice. 30,000 hours on LED's! I picked up the LG pa70g for 399 from fry's 6 months ago. Super slick price for great PJ. I have bulb based PJ too, and I have read plenty of threads where guys had problems with bulb based PJ's too. My bulb based PJ has 3 year warranty. Now do they break, yeah, both bulb and LED types can break. Both. And after 2 years if the LED PJ breaks, I got my money's worth out of it, because I can use it just like LED hdtv, turn it on and off all I want. But I'm not expecting it to break. I guess we will have to wait and see. Peace
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post #23 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

Oh I think they are awesome actually. Way to keep an open mind. But I don't expect to automatically get something that will last to that type of abuse. Especially a first or second generation product. How many have you returned to the store?

I had to exchange it three times because of the focus issue but thanks to all the posts and threads about this I think that it is a flawed design rather than a money shortcut by LG.

I doubt any of us can tell with certainty whether these LED projectors can last for ten or more years unless that time actually passes but LEDs do last for a very long time so I don't see why not.

The capacitors are a small concern but I remember seeing very few when I removed the top from my PA75U and I don't know how you can tell if they are good quality ones.
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post #24 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 10:53 AM
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since you got 3 of them that have bad focus, I got to ask you. "did you set it up the same place , all 3 of them?". I shared in the pa70g thread a few times how it's important with this PJ to line it up correctly to get "perfect focus". If it's 1 foot to the left of center of screen or 1 foot higher than center of screen you will get problems with focus. I likened it to having a flashlight from below pointing up towards screen , you get an OVAL instead of a circle. If flashlight is centered with center of screen you would get "circle of light". If you ceiling mounted it, all 3 would be unfocused.
On a few occassions, I placed the pa70g in different locations and got unfocused uniform image, I then keep moving the PJ until the image was all in focus.
You getting 3 pa70g's all unfocused could mean, your set up, it could also be LG quality control issue. It would be cool if you found out it is just a setup problem, right?
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post #25 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:04 AM
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I am hoping that LED projectors get brighter and come down in price to where they compare to a $2k-$3k projector soon. I watch my Epson 1080 (I purchased it new when Epson first came out with a 1080 projector... many years ago) everyday and get around 2500 hours out of the bulb (which means it lasts me 1 year).

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post #26 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

Guru64
since you got 3 of them that have bad focus, I got to ask you. "did you set it up the same place , all 3 of them?". I shared in the pa70g thread a few times how it's important with this PJ to line it up correctly to get "perfect focus". If it's 1 foot to the left of center of screen or 1 foot higher than center of screen you will get problems with focus. I likened it to having a flashlight from below pointing up towards screen , you get an OVAL instead of a circle. If flashlight is centered with center of screen you would get "circle of light". If you ceiling mounted it, all 3 would be unfocused.
On a few occassions, I picked the pa70g in different locations and got unfocused uniform image, I then keep moving the PJ until the image was all in focus.
You getting 3 pa70g's all unfocused could mean, your set up, it could also be LG quality control issue. It would be cool if you found out it is just a setup problem, right?

Here is my story with those PA75's I returned:

I did a complete focus test with letters repeating across the entire screen for each of them:

One was sharp on top and very noticeably blurry on bottom or it would do the opposite if you focused it the other way. You had to adjust the focus wheel within a micrometer to get tolerable focus but it still wasn't uniformly sharp and it would loose focus instantly if you slightly tapped the projector. In other words it was extremely sensitive with getting the image sharp.

The other one would not focus as sharply on the top half as it would on the bottom no matter where I placed the projector.

Another one had the center slightly blurred compared to the corners.

So I tried to fix this problem with two of them by opening the projector and completely unscrewing the lens in order to spin it differently and screw it back together, this would align the lens differently from the last time and I figure it might help.

The result was that once I tried my fix idea, the projectors still had the focus issues but now they were in a different spot, this made me realize that the lens was the issue since the blurriness moved when you moved the lens. Also just to clarify when I say moving the lens I don't mean adjusting the focus dial, I had to spin the whole lens clockwise and than screw it back and then try focusing it.

Now some might say that I should have ignored some of the blurriness but If I'm paying $700 for something then this is unacceptable. frown.gif

I place my pj on my computer desk and beam it on a wall behind me, and I've tried placing it anywhere but that's not a solution either IMO because they are suppose to be small and portable so if I have to be careful with where I place them then this is not a good thing.

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post #27 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:22 AM
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The fact of the matter is you do have to place it in the right place. Because when I didn't center it , I would get focus problems. That is just the way it is. Now if you get the upper in focus the bottom will be out of focus, or reverse it, doesn't matter.
I was getting unfocus problem until I realized I had to set it up "correctly" with center of screen "dead center" back, not to high , not to low, not to right or left. Trust me, if my pa70g is not dead center , some part of the screen will be unfocused. Knowing this, I can live with it, if it's not dead center back, because I know my unit when lined up right would be in focus. The flashlight example I gave holds true, the streching of image is what was causing the unfocus. Next time try it, experiment with placement. And if as you say, you don't want model where you have to get it exactly lined up, I don't think any of these models will work. Now it could be production problem too, so I'm just suggesting experiementing with placement, that is all.
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post #28 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

The fact of the matter is you do have to place it in the right place. Because when I didn't center it , I would get focus problems. That is just the way it is. Now if you get the upper in focus the bottom will be out of focus, or reverse it, doesn't matter.
I was getting unfocus problem until I realized I had to set it up "correctly" with center of screen "dead center" back, not to high , not to low, not to right or left. Trust me, if my pa70g is not dead center , some part of the screen will be unfocused. Knowing this, I can live with it, if it's not dead center back, because I know my unit when lined up right would be in focus. The flashlight example I gave holds true, the streching of image is what was causing the unfocus. Next time try it, experiment with placement. And if as you say, you don't want model where you have to get it exactly lined up, I don't think any of these models will work. Now it could be production problem too, so I'm just suggesting experiementing with placement, that is all.

My projector was always paralleled to the wall, I never had it slightly curved. Is this what you meant by "centering" it?



Thank you for the advise, I definitely will experiment more with placement the next time.
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post #29 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:44 AM
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Sort of what I mean, but more than that. If the center of screen it 6 feet off the floor, then place PJ 6 feet on tripod or table, then same with left or right of center too. I couldn't believe it myself, when I had the PJ at right height but 1 foot to left of center,and part of screen was unfocused (left or right of screen), moving it 1 foot over, made the whole image in focus. I know I was amazed when I realized how important it was. I was just thinking auto correction would fix things, but "centering the image with center of screen works for me". So I pass on that message. I freaked out a month ago, I had my PJ 5 months and when I got it , I checked focus and it looked good... so when I set it up in same place the image looked out of focus on the left of screen. Then I moved the PJ one foot to right, and everything was back in focus. So that is what sold me on correct focus with correct placement. smile.gif
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post #30 of 42 Old 06-04-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by rgtaa View Post

Sort of what I mean, but more than that. If the center of screen it 6 feet off the floor, then place PJ 6 feet on tripod or table, then same with left or right of center too. I couldn't believe it myself, when I had the 1 at right height but 1 foot to left of center,and part of screen was unfocused (left or right of screen), moving it 1 foot over, made the whole image in focus. I know I was amazed when I realized how important it was. I was just thinking auto correction would fix things, but "centering the image with center of screen works for me". So I pass on that message. I freaked out a month ago, I had my PJ 5 months and when I got it , I checked focus and it looked good... so when I set it up in same place the image looked out of focus on the left of screen. Then I moved the PJ one foot to right, and everything was back in focus. So that is what sold me on correct focus with correct placement. smile.gif

Yup I should have tried this when I had mine but now I'll wait and see what other new stuff is coming out. I can still get the PA75U again but I'm hoping that LG has a new model in the works, just like the recent PG65U which sounds very nice but I'd rather wait a little more. smile.gif
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