First foray into a projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So we have home being built presently and now that there is a foundation poured and we can actually see an end in site the preparations for the family room of our dreams begin. Straight off I would like to say that I understand that this is not the most ideal situation for audio and light as I describe the room but for our lives and the way we like to entertain this is how we specifically designed the home. The home is a split level with a fully finished daylight basement where the family room is to be located. The side of the basement that the family room is on measures roughly 30' W by 35' D and will be wood laminate flooring throughout minus the dedicated family area which measures (sideways to original dimensions) 14.5' W by 22.5' D. Viewers will be seated at the 22.5' area from the screen when this is complete and the family area will be carpeted for comfort of lying down watching a movie or enjoying interactive games. The doors to the back patio are behind the seating area and perpendicular to the viewing area so not much foreseen issue with light there as the large deck off the 'upper' floor will be serving as a cover all day. On the viewing end of the room there is a 4' wide window about 3' away from the corner again perpendicular from the screen, it will have plantation blinds and curtains as well so light control isn't too much of an issue as far as I can tell from my readings here. There is plan for a ceiling fan to be in that area as well to keep interactive players cool during spirited Kinect, PS3 Move or Wii sessions (my son gets especially into the games and my daughter loves to goad him into working harder just to enjoy his frustration, typical older sibling stuff. My though is to use a Epson 5020UB on a Elite screen, I figure with a little ambient light that I can still get a great picture with little effort. I was looking to know at what distance I could mount the projector and what size screen I do at the most. I would really like the fan to be up near the kids to keep them cool while playing around but their bodies as well as the fan would possibly be an issue with the projector getting to the screen correct? Any help is appreciated!
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post #2 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 08:49 AM
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Holy wall of text Batman...smile.gif

Try this calc here, http://www.eliteprojectorcalculator.com/ and use the Epson 5010 template. It'll give you an idea of the distances, screen sizes and gains, and the resulting light output. Then depending on the throw distance from pj to screen, and your wall dimensions, you should be able to get a good idea.

Oh, you'll have to deal with shadows, from players, using the Kinect. Might not be an easy task, for a long throw distance.
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post #3 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Just want to make sure that everything was set out in a visual word picture, maybe I did the Sistine Chapel...

So putting the projector behind fan is impossible because of shadowing more than likely? I'll get cracking on the calculator and see what comes up. Thank you for the help!
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post #4 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I've used the calculator but have questions still. It shows the zoom as 2.1 for a 120" screen with a 1.0 gain screen and a mounting at 11' 7". I could have them put a plug and also run my HDMI cable through the ceiling to about 11' 10" and then put the fan box around 12' 6" or even 13". This would keep the projector cooler and not get it in the way of the actual display correct? The Kinect is best for two players at around ~8", if they are in that area the downward angle from the projector will be over their head and not have shadowing correct? What is the recommended mounting distance from the ceiling, I really liked the glass shelf mount I have seen another member here use for their setup. Would CineGrey be a better choice for us or should we do the CineWhite?
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post #5 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 02:42 PM
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I think you have more options for where to put fans or a/c units than you do for mounting the projector. if your kids are going to use the projector for Kinect/psmove games you want the projector at least as close to the screen as they will be standing, which really means you're looking at within 10-12feet for sure I think. the height of your ceiling, height of your screen, and height of your kids will determine how much further back you can go. it's high school trig at this point, just measure the bottom height of your screen, the height of the projector when mounted, get the angle of the 'line' connecting those two points and do a little math to see if your kids will get in the way.

the 5020 seems like a good choice for your needs. good install flexibility as well, maybe even enough to let you mount the projector off to the side to further alleviate issues with shadows?

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post #6 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I had simulated the bottom of the screen to be 2.5' from the floor and the top of the screen 7" from the ceiling. Trig?! Damn, I can't do that type of measuring until framing is up, besides the fact that I was under the impression I'd never need said math after learning it in high school. From what I've written and figured I think it'll work. Kids are short as is my wife but figure 6' as the tallest person in front of the screen.
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post #7 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 04:12 PM
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my gut feeling, without knowing the measurements, is that you'd want to keep the projector within about 3feet of the playing area. it's probably not the worst thing if there's the odd shadow(when they jump or stick their hands up) but if you go much further back it'll likely get annoying.

I still think, if it works with your room, taking advantage of the 5020's lens shift and putting the projector close to the side wall instead of dead centre would reduce a lot of these shadows as well.

if you don't want to do the math, use laser pointer. hold it where you want the projector mounted, point it at the wall where the bottom of your screen would be, and see if it shines over your kids heads(obviously with them facing away, haha)

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post #8 of 25 Old 06-02-2013, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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I had given as many measurements in my initial novel, do they help at all?
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post #9 of 25 Old 06-03-2013, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantamancave View Post

I had given as many measurements in my initial novel, do they help at all?

Just throwing this out there...

If standing in front of the screen is really a big requirement then you may want to consider the short-throw BenQ W1080ST projector.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/BenQ-W1080ST.htm

A throw of 6' 7" throw is required to achieve a 120" (16:9) picture which means that your kids would be standing behind the projector and not in front of it.

I don't have any experience with this projector so perhaps someone else can advise.

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post #10 of 25 Old 06-03-2013, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantamancave View Post

I had given as many measurements in my initial novel, do they help at all?

ok, so, since my math class had a work period, and i used you as an example of why trig isn't useless smile.gif, i crunched some numbers for you based on a couple assumptions.

bottom of screen at 2.5feet, or 30"
projector mounted at 8.5feet, or 101"
throw distance of 12feet, or 144"
'obstruction' being 6feet tall, or 72"


using these numbers i calculated an angle of depression of about 28.1*
using that angle of depression i calculated that the light will have dropped the 2.5 feet(to be 6feet off the ground) within 4.5 feet. so wherever your kids are going to stand, you'd want to keep the projector within about 4 feet so that it can shine over top of them.

DISCLAIMER: all calculations are based off the above data, which may not be 100% accurate, and the assumption that I know how to do trig. no money back gaurantee is offered smile.gif hope it helps

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post #11 of 25 Old 06-03-2013, 08:10 AM
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A projector can be placed in any room, but what are your expectations for actual quality?

This isn't going to look like a LCD flat panel during the daytime - it's going to look weak. Perhaps even terrible.

I'm guessing that there is no intention of giving up aesthetics to paint the room dark colors or paint the ceiling? That while you have some blinds, you don't really have 'light control' in any significant manner.

This is a huge problem IMO, because your local movie theater doesn't turn the lights up before a movie, they turn them off, and there's a reason for that. So, you can't expect anything approaching movie theater like quality when you aren't planning a room that is anything at all like a movie theater.

All that said, your expectations have to be in line with that reality.

Once you are there, I would go with a brighter, shorter throw projector. I do like the BenQ W1080ST as an option there. It will really help with the shadows you may get from interactive gaming.

You will have to keep in mind where game systems are going, and where people are standing and the range of controllers. The Wii sensor bar, by example, may start to have issues with range at 12+ feet from the screen (I've seen this). Likewise, the Kinect needs special cabling in place (I believe) to allow it to work if the X-Box is not sitting right next to it.

So, there are a bunch of technical considerations which need to be thought out as well which have nothing to do with the projector/screen combination.

I might consider/recommend a black screen in this type of environment if you are set on a projector setup. A Black Diamond screen is pricey, but combined with a decent projector you may end up with the best results possible for daytime viewing in less than ideal circumstances. You can certainly paint your projection wall white to begin with and see what type of results you are getting before you invest in a screen at all. Cheaper to paint a couple of times, then to buy a screen a couple of times.

Most of the projectors out there right now for home theater are pretty good units at the very least. You have an open canvas to work with, but whether or not a projector makes the most sense considering your room layout is something that I consider very much 'up in the air'.

At the very least, I would put conduit in place for a projector, and I would also put it in place for a flat panel display along with power connections. That way, should I find myself very disappointed with the projection setup, I could always go to a 80"+ flat panel display and enjoy day or night without headaches of a terrible image.

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post #12 of 25 Old 06-03-2013, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I was actually considering a Mitsubishi 92" before my wife actually proposed going bigger with a projector. I think I was pretty close with my calculations and use of that elite calculator, but glad I could assist to educate today's youth. Mounting height I guess at 7' 6" since the ceiling is 8'.
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post #13 of 25 Old 06-03-2013, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantamancave View Post

I was actually considering a Mitsubishi 92" before my wife actually proposed going bigger with a projector. I think I was pretty close with my calculations and use of that elite calculator, but glad I could assist to educate today's youth. Mounting height I guess at 7' 6" since the ceiling is 8'.

oh, woops, I thought I read 9foot ceiling

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post #14 of 25 Old 06-04-2013, 09:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, will be painting the ceiling a darker color, not black but more like a chocolate brown, and the walls will be getting a treatment up to the carpet line on the side. Basically doing accent walls on the screen wall and also the wall to the left that has that small lone window I mentioned in an earlier post. Hopefully this will help a bit but as it is a multipurpose room and then the rest of the basement will be the pool table, poker table and wet bar.
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post #15 of 25 Old 06-17-2013, 09:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Have spoken with the builder and they will allow me to throw my Redmere in myself while electrical is being roughed in. Question here is the Monoprice HDMI wall jack compatible with it so my ceiling installation looks cleaner? I am going with the BenQ W1080ST and mounting at about the 6' 9" mark for a ~135' screen. I was going to have them put a electrical socket at 7' back for future projectors that may not have as good of a throw. I figure 30' Redmere should cover it for the wall and ceiling and then short Redmere jumpers from receiver to wall jack and then ceiling jack to BenQ or would that be overkill?
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post #16 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 01:07 PM
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if you're adding wires to be future proof you may want to leave the hdmi out and run 2-3 lengths of cat5 cable instead. by the time you upgrade it might be for a 4k projector using a cable that hasn't been invented yet. cat5 is pretty standard and you can be sure pretty much any new cable will have a compatible adapter to connect to cat5

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post #17 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 02:05 PM
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I would run the HDMI cable for sure, but on top of that you definitely want to run at least 2-3 pieces of cat-6 cable. I would not run cat-5e as the bandwidth it is capable of, while excellent, likely won't be as solid for future formats. Cat-6 is fairly inexpensive, and is what I would call a requirement cable. You really must put that cable in place, OR run conduit. Conduit is actually a far better option if you can do that. 1" or larger conduit is awesome to have in place.

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post #18 of 25 Old 06-18-2013, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you, I think I will indeed run the 1" conduit and then use the HDMI. For future use I can attach the Cat to the cable and thread it through. Any input on those HDMI blocks?
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-19-2013, 08:33 AM
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I would run the HDMI cable for sure, but on top of that you definitely want to run at least 2-3 pieces of cat-6 cable. I would not run cat-5e as the bandwidth it is capable of, while excellent, likely won't be as solid for future formats. Cat-6 is fairly inexpensive, and is what I would call a requirement cable. You really must put that cable in place, OR run conduit. Conduit is actually a far better option if you can do that. 1" or larger conduit is awesome to have in place.

whoops. shows how familiar i am with cat cable:p

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post #20 of 25 Old 06-19-2013, 11:24 AM
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Thank you, I think I will indeed run the 1" conduit and then use the HDMI. For future use I can attach the Cat to the cable and thread it through. Any input on those HDMI blocks?

Don't run HDMI inside the conduit. Leave the conduit empty for future use as it can be difficult to add multiple wires at a later point, especially if you only need one or two later on to go with the HDMI.

I'm one of those people who just goes out and buys a 1,000' roll of cat-6 cable and uses it whenever I need it. I lean towards throwing in a couple of pieces of cat-6, the HDMI, and conduit, so in 5 or 10 years everything I need is still in place. It's just my mentality that always gets a bit quirky on this stuff because in the grand scheme of setting things up, the wire is one of the least expensive portions, but can cause the most headaches down the road.

At the ceiling and wall locations, I would recommend a scooped wall plate instead of a junction connector.

While you can certainly use something like this:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042501&p_id=7330&seq=1&format=2
...at both the wall and the ceiling, the coupling of the HDMI can degrade the link quality and cause some problems.

Instead, I would use this:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=105&cp_id=10425&cs_id=1042509&p_id=3994&seq=1&format=2

I like this for a few reasons...
1. Because it is black it will blend in with your dark paint (you are using dark paint right?) compared to a white wall plate.
2. The cable can pass through very cleanly and provide a better connection path to the projector / receiver.
3. Any extra slack on the cable can be pushed back into the wall/ceiling so that you have exactly as much cable as you need going to the projector/receiver.

I have certainly used the HDMI coupler style wall plates, and you can purchase HDMI couplers in black and use them in black keystone connections...
About $12 each shipped or so...
http://www.discounthomeautomation.com/On-Q-Legrand-HDMI-Keystone-Insert-OQWP1234x?AdID=12950cm00cm0OQWP1234BK&gclid=COeehuLe8LcCFc-f4AodTg8AhA

Yes, that works, but IMO it's not as clean as a pass through plate.

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post #21 of 25 Old 06-19-2013, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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That's interesting that you suggested those as it was what I was leaning to but figured would get dinged for install from you guys in the future. I was intending to run both cat and HDMI through the 1". Not a good idea huh?
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post #22 of 25 Old 06-19-2013, 06:24 PM
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You won't get dinged from me at all, or from most other guys who have been doing and seeing installations for a while. The pass-thru wall plate is by far a better way to go when you want the best possible connection and highest signal quality. About the only time I go to wall plates is with a Cat-x termination as you can make patch cables to exact lengths and they can be easier to deal with, but even then I typically take them straight to my device for the cleanest final look.

While you 'could' run your cable in the conduit, this is generally not the way to do things. You want your conduit as wide open as possible, and just throw the HDMI and cat-6 cable alongside the conduit. It is easy to do this during construction, and it leaves you the most room for future use that you can get.

I also typically run cat-6 up behind the screen in case I want to add a gaming device later. (wii sensor bar, x-360 Kinect, etc.)

I actually overkill on cabling typically.

Just to give you an idea of my setup so far...
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/electronic-house-showcase-ce-pro-installation-center/83272-so-here-we-go-24-v-zones-w-10-sources.html

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post #23 of 25 Old 06-19-2013, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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So this is the framed and walled basement area that will be used for the projector. Plumbing is done as of today as well, electrical rough in is next. The roll placed in the picture is about at the 24' mark where the back of the couch will be. Next up for questions is speakers, I'm going 7.x this time and would like input on the idea of doing ceiling rears and sides. Perhaps a Cinegrey AT if one could be had is could do in wall LCR? I am still rocking with my Infinity Minute system that has made it through two marriages and many, many, many years in the Marines, so they too can be retired. I can prewire with no issues from the construction crew. The width is 11' 5" from wall to pillar is and the screen I was thinking was 135" hence my new found desire to perhaps go AT for the screen. I will need a new receiver with 3D HDMI as my STR DH710 doesn't support it so input on those two items will be appreciated. We will be running the PS3 (PS4), XBox and Wii through it as a single source to the BenQ. Off to the right past the pillars the remaining open space will be wood laminate with pool table, circular card table and wet bar.
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post #24 of 25 Old 11-14-2013, 05:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So here is an update. TV is a Samsung DLP 61" and the curtains my wife and roller derby teammate made. I will capture better pics but distance back edge of carpet to screen is 22'.
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post #25 of 25 Old 11-14-2013, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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To the right...
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