BenQ W1080ST 120Hz operation - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-19-2013, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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There's been a trend lately to overclock the input stage of display devices to increase refresh rates. Blurbusters, 120hz.net, and other sites document several successes with various consumer monitors and HDTVs.

I'm currently running 3 Optoma GT720 projectors at 1280x800 at 120Hz which is slightly above spec from the officially supported 720p@120Hz. What I'd like to know is if anyone has tried to feed a 1080p 120Hz signal into a W1080ST projector over the HDMI interface?

The W1080ST projectors would be drop-in replacements for the Optomas in my nVidia Surround gaming rig. HDMI has had the bandwidth to support 1080p@120Hz since v1.3 .... it's simply a matter of the HDMI chipset in the projector actually being able to do it.

If anyone has one of these projectors hooked up to a PC I'd be really interested to hear if you can drive in a 120Hz 1080p signal. Google "force pc 120Hz" for a quick rundown on the steps involved (it's pretty easy).

Thanks for any help you guys can provide,
Mike
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-20-2013, 02:29 PM
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I'd be willing to try it on my w1070, but I doubt it will work. If it does, then I'll feel like a complete idiot for not doing that sooner, but I suspect the HDMI 1.4a input port bandwidth is the problem. E.g. it definitely does NOT support 1080p / 30 in Frame Packing mode 3D (only 1080p/24), even though that's exactly the same bandwidth as 1080p/60.

If I could get even 1080p / 48 = 96 in 3D to work, that'd be great, then it'll be just a matter of tracking down a copy of The Hobbit in 3D / HFR smile.gif But I doubt any of this will be realizable. You'll probably have to pick up a replacement HDMI input chip and hope it just "works". We have access to all the firmwares, but disassembling those == good luck, mate. That's something I can't be bothered with, my time is too valuable, especially for the near-certainty of bricking my PJ. Maybe once it's a few years old, but then, I'll be better off just selling it at that point to get a true 4K PJ by then, or at least something with 1080p / 120 natively.
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post #3 of 26 Old 06-20-2013, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post

I'd be willing to try it on my w1070, but I doubt it will work. If it does, then I'll feel like a complete idiot for not doing that sooner, but I suspect the HDMI 1.4a input port bandwidth is the problem. E.g. it definitely does NOT support 1080p / 30 in Frame Packing mode 3D (only 1080p/24), even though that's exactly the same bandwidth as 1080p/60.

If I could get even 1080p / 48 = 96 in 3D to work, that'd be great, then it'll be just a matter of tracking down a copy of The Hobbit in 3D / HFR smile.gif But I doubt any of this will be realizable. You'll probably have to pick up a replacement HDMI input chip and hope it just "works". We have access to all the firmwares, but disassembling those == good luck, mate. That's something I can't be bothered with, my time is too valuable, especially for the near-certainty of bricking my PJ. Maybe once it's a few years old, but then, I'll be better off just selling it at that point to get a true 4K PJ by then, or at least something with 1080p / 120 natively.

HDMI 1.4a has the bandwidth for 1080p@120Hz. HDMI has actually had enough raw bandwidth since 1.3 was released in 2006. The only problem is that the resolution isn't officially supported. In fact 1920x1200@120Hz Reduced Blanking (pixel clock of 317MHz) is even possible from a purely bandwidth perspective (max pixel clock on HDMI 1.3 is 340MHz). This is why people are having some success with driving a 120Hz signal into some late model HDTVs.

If you could try this out for me with your projector that would be awesome. The micro-mirror array already operates faster than this when displaying 1080p 24Hz 3D content (it's doing screen updates at 144Hz when in this operating mode) and 720p 120Hz also works. It all comes down to whether the HDMI input stage can process it or not. Thanks.
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-20-2013, 09:15 PM
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HDMI 1.4a as a standard doesn't support 1080P at 120Hz regardless go the cable you are using. The HDMI 1.4b standards released late last year will support that refresh rate; however I haven't seen any gear with HDMI 1.4b outputs yet. Additionally there are only a handful of true 120 Hz displays out there, and most of them are computer monitors. To get 1080P @ 120 Hz on a computer is to use a display port cable or a dual link dvi; HDMI won't give 120 Hz on a PCM either.
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post #5 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rdqlus View Post

There's been a trend lately to overclock the input stage of display devices to increase refresh rates. Blurbusters, 120hz.net, and other sites document several successes with various consumer monitors and HDTVs.
I find this a bit silly as a concept.

Overclocking is typically the process by which you tell the Bios of a computer to run a processor at a higher speed than it is rated for. Typically it requires special cooling, etc. to not overheat and shut down.

I wouldn't call feeding any 120hz source to a display an 'over clocking' thing.

The display's input either accepts 120hz at certain resolutions or it does not. Since the input processor is almost never manufactured by the company which makes the display, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the display manufacturer is only receiving partial lists of accepted resolutions. Often full PAL formats are accepted, and resolutions that are odd are also often accepted, but just not listed in the 'official list' of supported resolutions.

I would think of overclocking a display's input as actually making a real modification to that input to force it to accept a resolution that it truly was never designed to accept and having it work reliably at that resolution.

But, feeding a display a 120hz source will all depend on the chip sets used in the display, and if a display supports 120hz and actually looks good with a 120hz source, then that's a good thing. Still, it's probably a LCD flat panel which doesn't generally look as good as a plasma display will look at 60hz, but that's a different forum. For projectors, you can try almost any resolution you want, but I wouldn't expect 1080p/120 to be accepted by any projector over HDMI yet. Soon, yes, but just not yet. The HDMI 2.0 specification leads me to believe that 1080p 3D and 120hz will be accepted in the next 1-2 years, along with UHD resolutions. At which point, people will want UHD 60hz/120hz capability.

All in a little package that should never cost more than $1,000.


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post #6 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 10:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post

HDMI 1.4a as a standard doesn't support 1080P at 120Hz regardless go the cable you are using. The HDMI 1.4b standards released late last year will support that refresh rate; however I haven't seen any gear with HDMI 1.4b outputs yet. Additionally there are only a handful of true 120 Hz displays out there, and most of them are computer monitors. To get 1080P @ 120 Hz on a computer is to use a display port cable or a dual link dvi; HDMI won't give 120 Hz on a PCM either.

I'm well aware of the HDMI and VESA DisplayPort standards. I'm an electrical engineer and my day job is to design/verify silicon with integrated DP/DVI/HDMI receivers and transmitters. I could write a wall of text and math to try to convince you that 1080p@120Hz has a chance of working but maybe you'll just take my word on it. (Also, if you don't actually own one of these projectors and can't perform the experiment then I'd be wasting my time.)
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

I find this a bit silly as a concept.

Overclocking is typically the process by which you tell the Bios of a computer to run a processor at a higher speed than it is rated for. Typically it requires special cooling, etc. to not overheat and shut down.

I wouldn't call feeding any 120hz source to a display an 'over clocking' thing.

The display's input either accepts 120hz at certain resolutions or it does not. Since the input processor is almost never manufactured by the company which makes the display, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find out that the display manufacturer is only receiving partial lists of accepted resolutions. Often full PAL formats are accepted, and resolutions that are odd are also often accepted, but just not listed in the 'official list' of supported resolutions.

I would think of overclocking a display's input as actually making a real modification to that input to force it to accept a resolution that it truly was never designed to accept and having it work reliably at that resolution.

But, feeding a display a 120hz source will all depend on the chip sets used in the display, and if a display supports 120hz and actually looks good with a 120hz source, then that's a good thing. Still, it's probably a LCD flat panel which doesn't generally look as good as a plasma display will look at 60hz, but that's a different forum. For projectors, you can try almost any resolution you want, but I wouldn't expect 1080p/120 to be accepted by any projector over HDMI yet. Soon, yes, but just not yet. The HDMI 2.0 specification leads me to believe that 1080p 3D and 120hz will be accepted in the next 1-2 years, along with UHD resolutions. At which point, people will want UHD 60hz/120hz capability.

All in a little package that should never cost more than $1,000.

I assure you, it is an 'over clocking' thing. HDMI is composed of 3 channels (RGB) and a fourth differential pair used for the TMDS clock. When you send in a 120Hz source the net effect is that you're sending in a faster clock. You're right though, it will probably come down to whether or not the chipset in the display supports it or not. Some HDTVs are accepting 1080p@120Hz so it's possible that this projector can do it as well. If not then I'll need to wait until HDMI 1.4b or 2.0 finally arrives.
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rdqlus View Post

I'm well aware of the HDMI and VESA DisplayPort standards. I'm an electrical engineer and my day job is to design/verify silicon with integrated DP/DVI/HDMI receivers and transmitters. I could write a wall of text and math to try to convince you that 1080p@120Hz has a chance of working but maybe you'll just take my word on it. (Also, if you don't actually own one of these projectors and can't perform the experiment then I'd be wasting my time.)

I'm not saying it can't work. I am saying 1.4a doesn't support it. Please hook up your pj to your PC via HDMI and take a screenshot of windows allowing you to set the refresh rate at 120 Hz. I imagine you might have to make a custom EDID to get 120 Hz as a refresh option with that pj.

If it works ill be tickled. I am a decent FPS PC gamer (final 16 in qcon duels last qcon). The only reason I don't game on a pj at home is because you currently can't get pj's to refresh at 120 Hz. That high refresh rate makes a giant difference in fast paced shooters like Q3. This is the reason why I would love to see proof of it working.
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eqpablon View Post

I'm not saying it can't work. I am saying 1.4a doesn't support it. Please hook up your pj to your PC via HDMI and take a screenshot of windows allowing you to set the refresh rate at 120 Hz. I imagine you might have to make a custom EDID to get 120 Hz as a refresh option with that pj.

If it works ill be tickled. I am a decent FPS PC gamer (final 16 in qcon duels last qcon). The only reason I don't game on a pj at home is because you currently can't get pj's to refresh at 120 Hz. That high refresh rate makes a giant difference in fast paced shooters like Q3. This is the reason why I would love to see proof of it working.

My current gaming rig is using 3 Optoma GT720 projectors in nVidia Surround at 120Hz (effective resolution 3840x800). I created a custom EDID to add 1280x800@120Hz support so that I can set the resolution in Windows. Another solution is to use ToastyX's Custom Resolution Utility that performs a registry hack to effectively do the same thing (haven't tried it myself). http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU

I'd like to upgrade to these projectors but only if they can do 1080p@120Hz. And yeah, I use my projector setup solely for FPS games. I get called a cheater daily.
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 03:14 PM
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Well, I have a GT720, as well as a W1080ST briefly. I have tried the EDID hack, and wasn't able to even 720P working under 120hz.

I am very interested if someone can make it work. I miss the higher rez, better contrast/black/OOB color accuracy of the W1080ST since the day I returned it...

Rdqlus - please keep in mind, if you are critical about response/lag, the W1080ST has a little bit over 1 frame (approx 22ms) input lag, and GT720 has a little under half a frame lag (appox 8ms) input lag.
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Damn, over a frame of lag at 60Hz doesn't bode well for working at 120Hz. I doubt the logic is there to buffer frames so this may be a non-starter. I'm surprised you had trouble getting 720p@120Hz working, that's supposedly a supported mode. I'm curious what the input lag is when using that mode (should be reduced to ~8-10ms but impossible to know for sure without testing it).

I may end up just buying one of these to test myself. If it doesn't work out I'll keep it for movies in the living room.
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-21-2013, 07:06 PM
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That was my plan as well smile.gif. The black level and contrast is night and day between the two, that already make it a worthy upgrade.

The W1080ST only support 3DTV Play by default like the GT750, and surprisingly its handling of 3D material via DLP glasses gives brighter and more vivid visual than the GT720 3DVision setup

Since you have GT720 as well, the W1080ST has slightly shorter throw, and the vertical offset is almost flat from the lens to the bottom/top of the image/screen. So you may have to make some adjustment on placement accordingly, or just put it on a coffee table.
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post #13 of 26 Old 06-26-2013, 01:15 PM
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I signed up for this forum just because I am buying this projector within the next 3 weeks and am so intrigued you guys are doing this! Please tell me you guys have an update of testing and can make this W1080ST actually 120h@1080p! That would be awesome!! I may even have to test this for myself when I recieve it!
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post #14 of 26 Old 06-26-2013, 07:58 PM
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1080p / 120hz 2D on my AMD 6950 (latest drivers) doesn't work on my w1070 on windows desktop.

I wonder if hacking the bios is the only way to do it. E.g. I would LOVE to get 1080p / 144hz (72hz per eye) on my projector, I'm not really that savvy in bios hacking, but I'm willing to try. Definitely by the time I'm ready to upgrade, I'd be willing to do it. I was going to try to hack together a way to auto-detect 3D sources better, as there is already code in the firmware to do that, it just sucks at detecting those signals, and reproducing them should be a piece of cake, with the right equipment and specs documents. E.g. detecting 1080i / 60 SBS or whatever.

Having to manually switch the 3D mode is the most annoying thing of this projector.
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post #15 of 26 Old 07-08-2013, 09:04 PM
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I am about to pull the trigger on the w1080st and I had a few questions for you guys who own the w1080st.

Can the w1080st do 120Hz 2D gaming via HDMI when hooked up to a PC? If so, can it do 120Hz 2D gaming in 1080p? Or does it have to be 720p to do 120Hz 2D gaming?

I do gaming on both PC and consoles, and I have recently started using only 120Hz displays for PC gaming, and it would be hard to go back to 60Hz. I don't care about 3D really at all.

Thanks in advance! smile.gif
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post #16 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SoupyFlow View Post

I am about to pull the trigger on the w1080st and I had a few questions for you guys who own the w1080st.

Can the w1080st do 120Hz 2D gaming via HDMI when hooked up to a PC? If so, can it do 120Hz 2D gaming in 1080p? Or does it have to be 720p to do 120Hz 2D gaming?

I do gaming on both PC and consoles, and I have recently started using only 120Hz displays for PC gaming, and it would be hard to go back to 60Hz. I don't care about 3D really at all.

Thanks in advance! smile.gif

1080p@120hz is not possible on any current HDMI inputs unless you "overclock" .

if the display has DVI it is sometimes possible or with display port.

You cannot do 1080p 3D from a PC at 60hz (since it is 60hz per eye, hence 120hz), it can do 3D 720p@60hz.

the HDMI chipsets might be capable of handling 120hz 1080 2D ( or 60hz per eye 1080p 3D) but since it isn't part of the HDMI spec, the EDID and HDMI handshake eliminate those.

Currently there aren't any HDMI input based consumer projectors that will do 120hz , or any monitors either that I know of.

the HDMI chipsets that might possibly handle 120hz 1080p just aren't built since HDMI 1.4 doesn't specify it and they would have to be built better and costlier even when nothing officially can output it over HDMI in the first place.

Once 60hz 3840x2160 comes along, maybe we'll see 120hz input capable 1080p projectors when HDMI 2.0 is fleshed out, until then a 144hz Computer monitor is the only option for better gaming otherwise the projectors that could do it cost as much as a car and are outside most consumers means and space constraints.
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post #17 of 26 Old 07-09-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by undermined View Post

1080p@120hz is not possible on any current HDMI inputs unless you "overclock" .

if the display has DVI it is sometimes possible or with display port.

You cannot do 1080p 3D from a PC at 60hz (since it is 60hz per eye, hence 120hz), it can do 3D 720p@60hz.

the HDMI chipsets might be capable of handling 120hz 1080 2D ( or 60hz per eye 1080p 3D) but since it isn't part of the HDMI spec, the EDID and HDMI handshake eliminate those.

Currently there aren't any HDMI input based consumer projectors that will do 120hz , or any monitors either that I know of.

the HDMI chipsets that might possibly handle 120hz 1080p just aren't built since HDMI 1.4 doesn't specify it and they would have to be built better and costlier even when nothing officially can output it over HDMI in the first place.

Once 60hz 3840x2160 comes along, maybe we'll see 120hz input capable 1080p projectors when HDMI 2.0 is fleshed out, until then a 144hz Computer monitor is the only option for better gaming otherwise the projectors that could do it cost as much as a car and are outside most consumers means and space constraints.

Thanks for the info. The GT750 I had could do 2D 120Hz gaming when in 720p over HDMI 1.4, can the w1080st also do 120Hz 2D gaming when in 720p mode over HDMI 1.4?
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post #18 of 26 Old 07-11-2013, 04:25 AM
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Nice thread!!

Actually I have an Optoma GT720, and I'm using it at 1280x800 @120hz too (with modified EDID).
I want to buy now the Benq W1080st and I have the same question... someone have tried to modify the edid to force 1920x1080 @120hz??
In Summary:
- Hdmi 1.4a (benq W1080st) doesn't support 1920x1080 @120hz.
- Hdmi 1.4b support 1920x1080 @120hz.. but there are no devices with it.
- The DIsplay Port can support 1920x1080 @120hz
- The DVI Dual Link can support 1920x1080 @120hz.

Should be nice to try with the DVI - HDMI adapter and with the DIsplayPort - HDMI adapter.. alwwys with the modded EDID.

Another dubt: If we use 720P or 1080P @120hz with the frame sequential 3D.. we always need the 3d glasses @144hz or can work also the glasses @120hz?
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post #19 of 26 Old 07-25-2013, 06:45 PM
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What's the app to modify a device's EDID again? Or do I need a hardware HDMI passthrough gizmo to do it.

I'm willing to try my DP -> 1080p / 120hz but I doubt it will work. I would LOVE to get 120hz 3D to work at like 1920x800 though.
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post #20 of 26 Old 07-25-2013, 09:34 PM
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With my current PC, when I used the intel onboard GPU I was able to set say 720p/100hz on my old Infocus projector.
When I put in an Nvidia GPU, I wasn't able to set anything higher than 60hz, even though I knew the Projector could support it.
So i'd be keen to know how people did this with Nvidia GPUs.
I guess the Intel GPU has some option to create whatever you want, without worrying about EDID.
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post #21 of 26 Old 07-25-2013, 10:17 PM
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I think if its possible, it will require one of these new adapters meeting this new DP++ spec. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DOZHLAA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER or the passive model http://www.amazon.com/Accell-B086B-004B-2-UltraAV-DisplayPort-Passive/dp/B00DUTIYQU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_pc_6 If anyone gets one of these two particular adapters, please post your experience. This projector would be king kong for gaming if those adapter and a hack monitor driver can pull it off.
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post #22 of 26 Old 07-25-2013, 11:00 PM
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so without these adapters, has anyone had this projector running at like 720p/120hz?
I'm tempted to actually swap over to my intel GPU port and see what sort of connection I can fire to it.
I do recall trying to get 1080p 100hz in the past with my last projector and with the intel gpu and it had a pop up saying the bandwidth exceeded the cable
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post #23 of 26 Old 07-25-2013, 11:02 PM
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Sorry I realise that 720p 120hz is supported by the projector.
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post #24 of 26 Old 01-28-2014, 10:17 AM
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Necro'ed! Nobody has tried those adapters?
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post #25 of 26 Old 01-28-2014, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdqlus View Post


My current gaming rig is using 3 Optoma GT720 projectors in nVidia Surround at 120Hz (effective resolution 3840x800). I created a custom EDID to add 1280x800@120Hz support so that I can set the resolution in Windows. Another solution is to use ToastyX's Custom Resolution Utility that performs a registry hack to effectively do the same thing (haven't tried it myself). http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Thread-Custom-Resolution-Utility-CRU

I'd like to upgrade to these projectors but only if they can do 1080p@120Hz. And yeah, I use my projector setup solely for FPS games. I get called a cheater daily.

Just tried it on a w1070 with a gtx 560m.  It appears the projector can process it but I don't know what I'm doing in the manual settings in Nvidia control panel.  In 1080p 120hz interlaced it does display an image but some horizontal lines are missing.  720p @ 120hz interlaced works but does not fill up the whole screen (could be fixed in aspect ratio settings).  It never displayed an image in progressive mode, only interlaced.  I tried +/- 5hz at 1080 and no difference except the missing lines would switch faster or slower.  Also this is without any adapter.

 

Here's what it looked like:

http://imgur.com/a/11Vp7

You can see on some of the file names on the desktop that the top or bottom line of pixels is missing.

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post #26 of 26 Old 06-27-2014, 09:00 AM
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We should see 120hz 3D Projectors with HDMI 2.0 very soon.

The next gen models will do this for sure!!!!


Have a look at the HDMI section in the Features tab.
http://www.powercolor.com/global/pro...#Specification
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TV: SONY 65" 4K X900 - AVR: DENON AVR x4000 - AMP: ROTEL RMB 1585 5Ch 200w - OPPO 103D BD PLAYER
CENTRE: KEF Q600c - FRONT L/R: KEF Q900 - WIDE FRONT L/R: KEF Q300
SURROUND L/R: KEF Q800DS's - SURROUND BACK L/R: MINX 21's
SUB: SVS PC13-ULTRA
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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