projectors damage with massive subwoofers - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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So the question is can a massive amount of bass cause any damage to your projector?

I just helped a friend of mine complete construction of a huge subwoofer enclosure which houses an FI 18" driver powered by 1500 watts Peavey Pro amplifier. For those of you unfamiliar with this subwoofer it is typically used in the car audio world and it’s incredible.
The bass output in his living room is unreal. The box is tuned to 32hz and it makes everything in the room vibrate around.
I would like to duplicate this set up for my theater but am honestly concerned with possible vibration damage to my projector. (Epson 6010)
In the early days I had a Toshiba Cinema series CRT rear projection TV that I had to converge on a weekly basis and I always thought it was due to the sub I was running at that time. This monster sub will be very over the top.

Anyone have thoughts on this?
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post #2 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 08:05 AM
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Anything is possible, but it's probably unlikely. They are made to have vibration tolerances. I've seen a projector dropped once from higher than 7 feet onto a thin carpet and still worked fine after being dropped, so some of these projectors can take a beating regardless.

I'd just say if you have a warranty, that's what it is for.


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post #3 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 04:09 PM
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I'm guessing that there are hundreds of tiny micro connections and points of electric current transfer (AKA solder connections) inside the projector that will eventually be subject to constant pounding from sympathetic vibrations and various sound waves. The arc in a metal halide lamp could also be affected by a constant pounding. You already have wild heat swings that occur in a Projector and I believe adding strong vibration to this mix is not a bright idea. My opinion is this will have a negative effect on the projector.

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post #4 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 04:22 PM
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Google buttkickers.


There's no need for bass that loud in a theater, save your projo and your neighbors.
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post #5 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Bohanna, you addressed my exact concerns. It just seams like all the electronics and more importantly the optics involved would take a beating.

I already run a 15” Velodyne Subwoofer for general movies and gaming but at times, mostly for music, the incredible visceral impact of massive bass is just something I crave.
Yes I realize it’s not properly balanced with that level of bass output but for some of us, once you go down the road of big bass you seem to need more and more. What, huh, ohh maybe it’s my hearing, but that’s another topic.
,
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post #6 of 46 Old 07-13-2013, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mactoast View Post

Yes I realize it’s not properly balanced with that level of bass output but for some of us, once you go down the road of big bass you seem to need more and more. What, huh, ohh maybe it’s my hearing, but that’s another topic.
,

Install some tactile devices in your seat and turn down the sub!
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post #7 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mactoast View Post

Bohanna, you addressed my exact concerns. It just seams like all the electronics and more importantly the optics involved would take a beating.

I already run a 15” Velodyne Subwoofer for general movies and gaming but at times, mostly for music, the incredible visceral impact of massive bass is just something I crave.
Yes I realize it’s not properly balanced with that level of bass output but for some of us, once you go down the road of big bass you seem to need more and more. What, huh, ohh maybe it’s my hearing, but that’s another topic.
,

The actual IC's or on-board electronics are very doubtfully a concern unless we are talking unbelievable earth quake level bass (and even then it would take a while), so I would only be concerned with the lamp and maybe the fan alignment or other motorized objects like optics. You will probably have to re-focus a lot. The projector would most likely go out of focus way before there was enough force to damage any electronics inside the projector.

I would probably go for a DLP though in this kind of environment, since there is no convergence and what not to be vibrated off.

Do you know how much beating most soldered connections can take, as an example you can completely bend most of these parts without them even breaking (like a system board for instance). It is possible over time enough BASS could wiggle loose a ribbon cable or some poorly soldered cable, but projectors are already designed for the most part to be semi-vibration proof. The projector MFR's know people sometimes walk above mounted projectors and people slam doors which sends bad vibrations to mounts.

After major earthquakes, car crashes, etc... Usually the only thing left working are the electronics, heck there have been cars in accidents that have pulled enough G's to where peoples' bodies were literally torn into pieces from the force, yet the IC's in the car and the radio itself were still functioning.
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post #8 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 02:49 AM
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Have a look around AVS, there are many people with far more bass output than the single Fi 18", most of the systems with really serious bass just happen to use front projection.

Heck my modest system will likely out do that single Fi 18" (other than at its tuned frequency) and I am not even close to the top tier of bass madness that frequents AVS.

Tune that Fi down to the single digits (if it's capable) and see if the walls crack and stud nails vibrate loose, then you've got something to worry about. biggrin.gif

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post #9 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Have a look around AVS, there are many people with far more bass output than the single Fi 18", most of the systems with really serious bass just happen to use front projection.

Heck my modest system will likely out do that single Fi 18" (other than at its tuned frequency) and I am not even close to the top tier of bass madness that frequents AVS.

Tune that Fi down to the single digits (if it's capable) and see if the walls crack and stud nails vibrate loose, then you've got something to worry about. biggrin.gif

Jason

DaGamepimp Obviously doesn't understand what kind of sound pressure level a Professional sound reinforcement amp like the peavey will produce If its coupled with a woofer in a direct radiation front loaded cabinet like most home and audio systems use. You may want to go to Walmart and buy a whistling Tea Pot,,,, fill it up, let it boil and listen to it because that the sound of the Tinnitus you will be hearing for the REST OF YOUR LIFE! The more damage you do to your hearing the worst the RINGING will get!

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post #10 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 04:20 PM
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Car audio amps and other electronics in cars have no problems with SPL thats way higher than any HT system. Why would the electronics in a PJ be any different?
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post #11 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Manic1! View Post

Car audio amps and other electronics in cars have no problems with SPL thats way higher than any HT system. Why would the electronics in a PJ be any different?

Audio systems have a lot less moving parts than a typical projector,,, Try leaving your cell phone directly in front of a high powered speaker for a day and see if it still functions properly afterwards

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post #12 of 46 Old 07-14-2013, 05:08 PM
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This might give you an idea what kind of stress a sound system can put on your equipment.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeC3Bir_UHA
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post #13 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohanna View Post

DaGamepimp Obviously doesn't understand what kind of sound pressure level a Professional sound reinforcement amp like the peavey will produce If its coupled with a woofer in a direct radiation front loaded cabinet like most home and audio systems use. You may want to go to Walmart and buy a whistling Tea Pot,,,, fill it up, let it boil and listen to it because that the sound of the Tinnitus you will be hearing for the REST OF YOUR LIFE! The more damage you do to your hearing the worst the RINGING will get!

Bohanna

Well as someone that DJ'd for years as well as playing drums I likely have a far better understanding of it than many. wink.gif

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post #14 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohanna View Post

Audio systems have a lot less moving parts than a typical projector,,, Try leaving your cell phone directly in front of a high powered speaker for a day and see if it still functions properly afterwards

Bohanna

Well what about night clubs and banquet halls that have large systems and projectors. They don't seem to have a problem.
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post #15 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

Well as someone that DJ'd for years as well as playing drums I likely have a far better understanding of it than many. wink.gif

Jason

Yep you're probably right . However As someone who has had over 35 years as the owner of a Sound Reinforcement company and who's company has worked with thousands of live acts and who has designed and built several different style sound systems I think I have an understanding as well. You have a nice home set up but it is not capable of generating the kind of high sound pressure levels i am talking about. Not even close. But let me make this even simpler for those of you who ACTUALLY believe that you can take an image producing electronic device that relies on an electric arc as a light source (AKA a projector) and put it in close proximity to an audio device that is mimicking the percussive characteristics of a Howitzer . Go right ahead. GOOD luck with that!

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post #16 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 07:54 AM
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Sound waves don't become shock waves until 194 dB, which is supposedly 19 dB more than a Howitzer Cannon which is only 175 dB.

Haha

SOURCE:

http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html


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post #17 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 07:55 AM
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A sub that's only tuned for 32hz is not a true HT sub, regardless of how many dB it can produce. A true HT sub should output every bass note down to below 20hz flat (and helped by your room acoustics). OP's sub is just like a giant car sub, very loud but mostly you will only hear one note at 32hz, aka a boom box, and possible massive distortion.

If you tune that boom box to 14hz, then suddenly 1500W does not appear much that powerful. Because most of the watts are consumed by low notes. That's the reason massive PA speakers are only tuned to 32 or 28 hz. They sacrifice the base response to gain decibels.

We are enjoying a movie experience, not a disco club. And, your ear drums will wear out faster than your PJ smile.gif
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post #18 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 08:42 AM
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This is ridiculous.

Projectors are mounted under floors that people walk on, they are put in ships and trains and trucks and moved from halfway around the world.

I would think the best way to protect a projector would be to add a shock mount to it to help decouple it from the ceiling, and not set it right on top of the vibrating subwoofer box, but it's just silly to imagine that the sound waves from a really good subwoofer will hurt the projector in the short term.

In the long term, the vibrations from the ceiling, from all causes, will impact all electronics in the room, and the projector is certainly more susceptible to those vibrations and damage. It likely may mean a new lamp a bit earlier if things are really cranked up for long periods of time, but this is likely less of an impact than, let's say, a projector mounted in a basement which has little kids in the home running around upstairs on the floor (basement ceiling) all day long. That REALLY will put some vibration into a projector, and you don't see those complaints every five seconds.

Bottom line is that unless that projector is sitting right on top of, or just a couple of feet from a subwoofer, it will have minimal impact at almost any survivable volume level.

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post #19 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 09:27 AM
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If the floor vibrates
If the walls vibrate
if the Glass vibrates
So will EVERYTHING else in the room. Duh?? Its just a matter of the level of Vibration. The OP's question was could this have a negative effect on a projector? I used the Howitzer as an example of a high sound pressure level. Just because it doesn't get as loud as an actual Howitzer Doesn't mean that there are no percussive effects. There is a HUGE difference between hearing a frequency and feeling a frequency which is what some people want a sound system to do. They want it to hit them in the face. This is the kind of SPL that I am refereeing to and not the overrated over stated power specks created by the folks that market products. Don't take my word for it. Just turn your projector on and try playing a twenty minute version of the "Wipe Out" drum solo on it.

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post #20 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 10:07 AM
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Bohanna has the most correct outlook.

In normal Home construction, any Sub system that has the capabilities of the one mactoast possesses can produce enough SPL to displace the existing volume of air pressure in a room of 300 sq. ft.2x over. This pressure increase will impact a substance like Drywall, and the drywall will amplify the effect much the same as a Drum Head does upon being struck by a Drum Stick, only in this case the surface area affected will be far more broad.

And...should the Ceiling be constructed in a 24" O.C. method instead of 16" O.C., that conclusion is almost doubled. The Drywall becomes a Diaphragm, a "Eardrum" just waiting to collect resonant air pressure and turn it into some sort of reactive energy.

Few really have a correct understanding of just how conductive such air pressure changes can be into a resonant solid (...wall or Ceiling...). Even the much slighter changes in air pressure that vocals produce are primarily responsible for such vocal sound being conducted through walls. One does not hear "air Pressure"...but Air Pressure delivers resonant frequencies to a location, and "holds" them there long enough to transfer the energy of those resonating frequency wave into a susceptible medium. Be it Drywall, Wood, even Steel, (...and of course a Membrane like a Eardrum...) the efficiency of transfer is directly related to the amount / level of energy that can be absorbed.

In the Sound masking industry, Resonant frequency producing Audio Transducers are used to inject / create a inaudible resonant barrier within a structural solid that will either eliminate or greatly reduce the ability of such a material to absorb any exterior influence that is not able to displace and overcome the amount of energy within the solid.

A 18" Sub that is not tuned specifically to a room, and that is within a room whose surfaces are not protected with enough absorptive material, makes for a tremendous opportunity for non- harmonic resonant distortion within the solid to occur. This is because when even accurately produced resonant frequencies hit a non-dampened solid such as Drywall, (...which is by nature not really wanting to be agreeable with the insertion of such energy...) , and it does not have the potential to accurately reproduce the frequencies at the level it is being encountered, those deep Bass frequencies instead become inserted "vibrations" which are neither sympathetic nor accurate. No...they are just adverse vibrations that can indeed damage Projector Lamps, shake loose mechanical parts (Lens Shift,,,Zoom and Focus settings...Solder points) and cause many such vibration related issues.

Basically, what you have going on is akin to someone striking a ceiling lightly but repeatedly with a Cloth-Wrapped Fist that is larger than a Garbage Can lid.. While the point of strike might not even be close to the PJ, the continual concussive transfer of vibration is amplified and spread throughout the solid.

Yep...that's a very "layman-esque" explanation, but it applies to the question quite well. The more excessive the quest for oppressive Bass, the more consideration needs to be given toward dampening the room's surface.

Oh....BTW, mounting a PJ on a "Shock Absorber" doesn't work. That is not the answer, in fact that can often make visible shaking worse. The solution is to dampen the energy being transferred into the solid the PJ is mounted upon.

(...it took me so long to compose the above, Bohanna had time to make another post. biggrin.gif )

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post #21 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohanna View Post

If the floor vibrates
If the walls vibrate
if the Glass vibrates
So will EVERYTHING else in the room. Duh?? Its just a matter of the level of Vibration. The OP's question was could this have a negative effect on a projector? I used the Howitzer as an example of a high sound pressure level. Just because it doesn't get as loud as an actual Howitzer Doesn't mean that there are no percussive effects. There is a HUGE difference between hearing a frequency and feeling a frequency which is what some people want a sound system to do. They want it to hit them in the face. This is the kind of SPL that I am refereeing to and not the overrated over stated power specks created by the folks that market products. Don't take my word for it. Just turn your projector on and try playing a twenty minute version of the "Wipe Out" drum solo on it.

Bohanna

It was a joke...


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post #22 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Oh....BTW, mounting a PJ on a "Shock Absorber" doesn't work. That is not the answer, in fact that can often make visible shaking worse. The solution is to dampen the energy being transferred into the solid the PJ is mounted upon.
I would think that this is exactly what we are talking about...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/351596-REG/Chief_CMA347_CMA_347_Projector_Vibration_Isolator.html

Still, the reality of significant damage remains a ridiculous concept in my experience. Certainly would be an interesting experiment. Anyone got a few W1070s around and a bunch of subs?

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post #23 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 02:37 PM
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It's truly amazing the stuff people will debate on here, silly.rolleyes.gif

Re: Car Audio...
I competed in car audio for years and owned a standard cab Toyota pick-up with 22 speakers (had a cut through from the bed into the cab, housing subs and extra batteries) and pushing 2200 watts, I had to turn it up outside the vehicle with the deck remote. If you sat inside at about 3/4 your eyes would vibrate so much that your vision blurred (even with the windows down).


As I said initially... look around, there are people all over that utilize far more bass than the set-up mentioned in the original post while also using front projection. If it were so damaging we would be reading about it, with some even proud of the destruction their bass had produced.

Jason
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post #24 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

It's truly amazing the stuff people will debate on here, silly.rolleyes.gif

Re: Car Audio...
I competed in car audio for years and owned a standard cab Toyota pick-up with 22 speakers (had a cut through from the bed into the cab, housing subs and extra batteries) and pushing 2200 watts, I had to turn it up outside the vehicle with the deck remote. If you sat inside at about 3/4 your eyes would vibrate so much that your vision blurred (even with the windows down).


As I said initially... look around, there are people all over that utilize far more bass than the set-up mentioned in the original post while also using front projection. If it were so damaging we would be reading about it, with some even proud of the destruction their bass had produced.

Jason
Exactly

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post #25 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 07:42 PM
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No...what you have going on are a couple of fellows who have NOT actually experienced the very circumstances being considered, yet feel obliged to say there should never be any issues..

Until you consider that not all those people you mentioned have indeed taken proper steps to mitigate Bass resonance, your not making anything close to a valid statement. Consider how some spend thousands of extra dollars to isolate a room's surface from interacting with a structure. Or to suppress resonance by "loading" walls? Why so.....can't you guess?

Let me put it differently.

I HAVE seen it. I've been there in rooms where PJs were suffering. I've seen noticeably vibrating PJ lamps need replacing far before their time, then steps be taken and Lamp failures diminish to squat.,

Some people get themselves involved with ridiculous amounts of Bass Output, using Rear Loaded Bass cabinets and 18" Drivers in rooms were a couple of 12" Economy Subs would suffice. And employ no Bass Traps...and proceed to make Drywall divots pop off screw heads.

Cars do not have projectors hanging from the ceiling. But I have seen 29' x 24' Theater rooms that had in excess of 15,000 watts divided between Speaker arrays and Subs. Gosh & Golly Gee whiz...you have no comprehension of what is done beyond this Forum's posted dictates. Anything can and does happen, and the interaction between Speakers and other A?V equipment is both well known and proven for many years on now.

Until your experiences run the gamut of wretched excess, in locations where such creates worse case scenarios, you shouldn't assume that just because you haven't read it yourself, the situations do not exist, on here and elsewhere. Because they do.

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post #26 of 46 Old 07-15-2013, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

I would think that this is exactly what we are talking about...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/351596-REG/Chief_CMA347_CMA_347_Projector_Vibration_Isolator.html

Still, the reality of significant damage remains a ridiculous concept in my experience. Certainly would be an interesting experiment. Anyone got a few W1070s around and a bunch of subs?

The product shown is primarily used to dampen constant vibrations due to electrical / mechanical interference. AC Units. Compressors. Motors. It will not effectively dampen the percussive pressure transfer of a amplified Kick Drum if it is the only thing in action in a worst case situation. We are talking worst case, ya know.

The product is itself a very decent item that does a job that the rest of the PJ Mount industry has ignored. That cannot be in dispute. But having used it twice when 12' drop Poles were needed, i'll let you know this. It too has specific limitations when things get into crazy overkill.

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post #27 of 46 Old 07-16-2013, 12:24 AM
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MississippiMan,

Now you are taking a somewhat insulting stance...

Be careful what you assume, remember what happens wink.gif, you are honestly starting to sound like another self proclaimed expert that frequents this board.

Many of us here have years of first hand experience in these areas and calling out others while professing to 'know it all' does not suit you well. Many of us here remember not too long ago when you had far less first hand experience and mainly posted in the DIY screen forum (this is not in any way meant to insult you, I am simply stating something that you should keep in mind... never assume to be the smartest guy in the room on any given topic wink.gif).

I am confident that I have heard/felt bass that 95% of AVS has never experienced but that does not make me an expert on the effects of bass on projection equipment (and I never claimed to be).

None of us are saying that bass absolutely cannot have any impact upon projectors, what we are saying is that it is likely not something to worry about (and to this we can make logical conclusions as there are many at AVS with systems that far exceed the output of the single Fi 18" mentioned in the original post, so let's keep it on point).

As an example I have a local friend that has over 10,000 watts in his HT system with 6 x 18's and full range 15's in an attempt to reproduce some of the lowest notes produced by a pipe organ (which he plays). This person also happens to have been a lead tech/designer for one of the larger projector manufacturers, he never once mentioned any issues with any of the projectors nor spread FUD to our local HT group. Heck I even bought one from him at one point, an NEC CRT projector which could certainly have seen some abuse (with its massive amount of internal components) from such a capable home system.

So the best thing to do here before any unneeded personal attacks get tossed about is to simply agree to disagree and accept that there are varied opinions on the subject and no factual study has been done specifically regarding the effects of bass on front projectors (at least I could not find any valid data when I searched before making this post).

Regards, smile.gif
Jason
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post #28 of 46 Old 07-16-2013, 06:49 AM
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I had a projector mounted almost directly underneath a front loading washing machine. I did my best to stabilize it but the damn thing would shake like the dickens when the washer was on. I'd imagine it was much more extreme than any bass would do. 2 years no problems. I even squeezed out double the recommended bulb life with no issues. Actually now that I think about it this all surprising considering the setup. Lol.

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post #29 of 46 Old 07-16-2013, 10:02 AM
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Jason,

I suppose my responses were due to seeing posts alluding to there being no reason or justification to expect SPLs to have any effect whatsoever on a PJ's welfare. By my reasoning, even if Lamps don't fail and parts don't shake loose, a vibrating PJ / Lens only shows a lack of foresight and planning. But I have come into such situations often enough to know they exist...and are not exceptional circumstances.

FWIW, I only posted on DIY Screens for some time because as professional A/V Design Installer w/35 years experience, it was understood back in 2002 that I could not offer advice without violating Forum Rules, in the eyes of those who felt I had ulterior motives.

A few, but not many on AVS know I cut my virtual eye teeth designing and building Mobile PAs and Stadium Audio systems since 1973. But as far as Home Audio...that only started in 1978. smile.gif A lot of the issues I mentioned can / are directly attributed to poor acoustic considerations as well as sub standard PJ mounting solutions. When I design a high db Theater, you can be sure I use robust Mounts like the Chief RPA- Dedicated units, sturdy Drop Pipe assemblies, as well as build in real acoustical support for the Audio installed....when warranted.

But absolutely, I have avoided posting in the Speakers Forum because I have seen over the years that it can be a very cantankerous forum, full of some pretty opinionated & nasty commentary and even nastier retorts. Also, for some reason, people seem to accept it, and there doesn't seem to be the level of Moderator intervention as there is elsewhere. Speakers is not by any means the only Forum that suffers, but at least over the last few years...things have gotten a little better all around because the Mods have been doing a much better job controlling the worst offenders..


I apologize for coming off in a less than courteous manner, I just find it very hard to conform to and accept "absolutes" when experience tells me differently. As someone who has had his share of bombastic attacks, I should have been even more restrained than I was trying to be.

To quote James T. Kirk;
"I'm laughing at the superior intellect"
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post #30 of 46 Old 07-16-2013, 03:49 PM
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Hey MississippiMan, Being from Mississipp My guess is that you have spoken with Hartley on several occasions. I Have traveled a parallel path as you designing and building several sound reinforcement systems one of which had MIT students scratching their heads. Its almost comical reading the opinions of people involved in Home theater sound who think they understand Pro audio and what LOUD really means! Anyone who doesn't think that a high power driver wired to a High powered amp with a high slew rate can't PULVERIZE a projector just doesn't get it!

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