Optoma HD25 with 120" screen with 8' ceiling. Possible? - AVS Forum
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Old 07-17-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I have 8' ceilings in my basement and plan on ceiling mounting a PJ for a 14' throw to a 120" screen. Have narrowed my choices to the Optoma HD25 and the Epson 8350 (throw distance doesn't work for the BenQ 1070).

I prefer the Optoma since it is cheaper, newer and seems to be getting good reviews, but I'm not sure my ceiling is high enough. Here's my math.
- Ceiling height: 96" (8')
- Media console below screen where center channel sits: 24"
- Screen vertical viewing height: 59" (16:9 Elite Fixed frame screen - 120" diagonal)
- Screen border: 5" (2.5" black border all around)

Given the above, that only leaves 8", but the calculator shows the Optoma has a 9" height offset at my throw distance (plus the height of the mount). The Optoma doesn't have vertical lens shift.

So if I go with the Optoma am I stuck having to get a smaller screen, or is there another option?
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:37 PM
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You have a few options. 1 you can angle the projector up its only a few inches and the resulting keystone would be absorbed by the black borders of the screen. when watching movies this would not be noticeable but if using as a desktop from PC its a problem. You could use the digital KEYSTONE that's what its there for, again not noticeable with movies but desktop would be degraded. 2 you could put a spacer behind the bottom of the screen to angle it up to correct the keystone great picture but won't look just right. If it was me I would find a way to lower that Media Center a few inches as in cutting the legs off or even replacing it with something lower. Of course if it a $2000 piece of furniture or an OLD heir loom I would do it when my wife was out of town.

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Old 07-17-2013, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks. I'm trying to avoid keystone correction since from what i've read it degrades the picture (even though I won't be using desktop, just movies).

The media console is expensive, so can't cut off its legs :-(

I guess the 8350 is probably my best best.
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:03 PM
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Unless you get an 8350 with perfect convergence (not likely ) the hd25 will have a sharper picture with keystone correction and the 3D is amazing from these projectors

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Old 07-17-2013, 07:22 PM
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Might have a look at the Benq 7000? http://amazon.com/BenQ-W7000-300-Inches-Quality-Projection/dp/B006HIKIKQ $1550 The 8350 can be pretty good if you get a unit with good convergence, but as the previous poster mentioned, perfect convergence is almost impossible. About the best you can hope for is within 1 pixel. Not real bothersome at seating distance, but some people have gotten worse units and have to go through the "refurb runaround" with Epson. But, they will usually work with you until your happy.

The Optoma does offer a "super wide" mode feature that some people like, and their very similar to the Benq 1070 overall.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rekbones View Post

Unless you get an 8350 with perfect convergence (not likely ) the hd25 will have a sharper picture with keystone correction and the 3D is amazing from these projectors

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnabq View Post

Might have a look at the Benq 7000? http://amazon.com/BenQ-W7000-300-Inches-Quality-Projection/dp/B006HIKIKQ $1550 The 8350 can be pretty good if you get a unit with good convergence, but as the previous poster mentioned, perfect convergence is almost impossible. About the best you can hope for is within 1 pixel. Not real bothersome at seating distance, but some people have gotten worse units and have to go through the "refurb runaround" with Epson. But, they will usually work with you until your happy.

The Optoma does offer a "super wide" mode feature that some people like, and their very similar to the Benq 1070 overall.

While the convergence accuracy for a given 3 chip projector (LCD, LCoS or DLP) is the 'luck of the draw' I don't believe it really as bad as some people seem to believe (here on AVS we usually hear reports from those members that have projectors with such problems). I currently have an 4+ year old Epson (6500UB) which has about a max. 1/2 pixel convergence error at any point on the projected image. My JVC has about 1/3 pixel max. error and my newer Epson 5020UB has essentially zero convergence error (the best I ever seen for a 3 chip projector, again the luck of the draw).

Even a full one pixel error can be hard to see from normal viewing distance, especially if it is the blue color that a out of convergence. The human eye is more sensitive or red/green convergence errors. Once the max. convergence error gets down to perhaps 1/2 pixel it is unlikely you would be able to detect any issue from normal viewing distance.

Several of the more expensive LCD and LCoS projectors have an electronic convergence adjustment, but you won't find this on entry level models. One alternative for a projector with a wide zoom range and a wide range lens shift adjustment would be to look for a factory refurb LCD or LCoS projector (e.g., Epson 5010 or JVC RS40) (between $1.5K and $2K) or consider a new Sharp XV-Z30000 (around $2K street price) DLP projector. I know this is more than you hoped to spend, but most entry level projectors do have offer lens shift adjustments.

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Old 07-18-2013, 09:10 AM
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Having seen many many 6500ub's, 8350's, 8500ub's, 8700ub's, 5010's and (1) 5020, I have to say that you are on the lucky side of Epson convergence to only get 1/2 pixel off on one unit, and then have virtually perfect convergence on the other (extremely rare on Epsons).

I would say the average is 1.25 pixels off, with an occasional unit being up to 2 pixels off or more, and only a couple ever being under 0.5 off. Also keep in mind, the Epson refurbs will in almost all cases have higher chances of poor convergence than the new units, that is the key is forcing the swap to a new unit before the 30-days, do not accept a refurb under any circumstances unless it is past the return window. The difference between a JVC and an Epson is that Epson often has RED off quite a bit, whereas JVC often only has blue off a lot and RED off is usually well under 0.5 pixels on the JVC (sometimes a bit more).

The first 5010 I saw RED was off by about 1 to 1.75 pixels non-evenly and it had to be replaced. Some of this also has to do with where you setup the projector (how much lens shift), so that plays a role as well. Though I must say, if you are shooting for good convergence on a NON-DLP and do not wish to play luck-of-the-draw, the JVC's are the closest and most consistent thing to this (you still get bad ones, but its rare).


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Old 07-18-2013, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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So I did a search on projector central with my required criteria:
- 1080p
- 14' throw to 120" screen
- Street price/MSRP < $2000
- Vertical lens shift (to allow for the 120" screen when ceiling mounted with my 8' ceiling)

Only got 4 hits:
- Epson 8350 ($1300 new / $900 refurb): 3+ years old, no 3D, potential convergence issues
- Epson 8345 ($1000): New with limited reviews. No 3D. Lower brightness/contrast than 8350, and same potential convergence issues
- BenQ W1500 ($1500 pre order): Not out yet so limited reviews.
- Panasonic PT-AR100U ($1300 new): Almost 2 years old, no 3D, worse black levels than 8350 in dark room, but better for rooms with ambient light

I don't intend to watch much 3D content, but I figure I should buy a PJ that has the capability to make it future proof. That only leaves the W1500 if I want a new PJ around $1500 or less.

When you consider refurbs, the options open up a bit to the 5010 mentioned above. The Z3k doesn't seem to be <$2000 anymore (or close to it).
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Old 07-18-2013, 09:30 AM
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There is also the refurb JVC HD-250 or possibly a refurb JVC RS-45, though 2 issues with these.

The RS-45 has poor lamps, on the first lamp I did manage 1500 hours, but now on my newer (even more updated) version 3 lamp, it has dimmed massively at only 275 hours.
it seems to me that most RS-45 users get about 800 hours per lamp on average if you average it all out. The replacements on Ebay run around $260 with housing (so not as bad as they used to be), and I do now see some selling ONLY the lamp with NO HOUSING for $120 (but not sure that's really the right lamp, no idea). It's not even the fact they dim that bothers me so much, what bothers me is when they explode and leak mercury everywhere (though supposedly in a large room with good ventilation, this is not all that dangerous as long as you are careful when you clean it up).

The issue with the HD-250 refurbs / B-stock is the pink stripe issue, sometimes you will get a pink stripe appear on the edge of the image, but I do believe these come with 2-yr warranties, the RS-40 or newer (RS-40/45/46 and onwards) do not have the pink stripe issue and also come with 2-year warranties on the B-STOCK units.

I would look for a B-STOCK JVC first if you are not planning on loading many many hours on the projector (mainly just using it for movies occasionally), otherwise I think keep your eye open for the Sharp XVZ-30,000 to get a new woot deal or some other Internet deal. Also check for B-STOCK and refurbs on Ebay, as some of the vendors selling these are actually very legitimate and some manufacturers even have their own Refurb Ebay store on there.

Another good source of B-STOCK and REFURBS is from AVS, email Mike@Avscience.com to find out what he has in stock right now.


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Old 07-18-2013, 12:41 PM
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I did a quick check on Sharp XV-Z30000 prices and it does indeed appear the price is back up to around $2.5K to $3K at those dealers that have any. Perhaps the price drop a few months ago to the $2K price range was an effort to clear out Sharp's inventory and as that supply dried up the prices have increased. It's possible Sharp has a replacement model in the works and the supply of remaining Z30000's will continue to decline (just speculation on my part).

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Old 07-18-2013, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm leaning against anything refurbished, so my choice now looks to be:

1) Wait for the W1500 (or even the W1400 since i don't need wireless HDMI)

2) Go with the Optoma HD25, but downsize screen to a 110" diagonal and find as flush a mount of possible. Based on my calcs, I'll need to find a mount that results in the center of the lens being no more than 4.7" from the ceiling to make it work (96" ceiling - 8.6" PJ offset - 53.9" screen height - 4.7" screen border - 24" media console). Can you recommend a very low profile flush mount that could work?
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Old 07-18-2013, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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On further thought, does the vertical lens shift on the W1500 even help me? Based on the description on BenQ's website (http://www.benq.us/product/projector/w1500/), it looks like the lens shift only works in one direction. If it were ceiling mounted, that would mean it allows you to shift the picture further DOWN if necessary, when I need to be able to shift it up (closer to the ceiling). Am I correctly understanding how it works?
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Old 07-18-2013, 03:11 PM
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On further thought, does the vertical lens shift on the W1500 even help me? Based on the description on BenQ's website (http://www.benq.us/product/projector/w1500/), it looks like the lens shift only works in one direction. If it were ceiling mounted, that would mean it allows you to shift the picture further DOWN if necessary, when I need to be able to shift it up (closer to the ceiling). Am I correctly understanding how it works?

Its my understand the W1500's lens shift range is very similar to that of the W1070. In either case the projector must mounted just a few inches above the top of the screen. BenQ uses an odd way to express the range of the lens shift when they spec it as 30% of the 1/2 height of the screen. In other words its 15% of the vertical size of the screen which for a 120" diagonal screen, which is about 58" high, this would mean the image can only be shifted over a range of only 8.7". Also for the example of using a ceiling mounted W1070 with a 120" screen, the lowest position for the projector (center of lens) is about 3 inches above the top of the projected image..

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Old 07-19-2013, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petesamprs View Post

On further thought, does the vertical lens shift on the W1500 even help me? Based on the description on BenQ's website (http://www.benq.us/product/projector/w1500/), it looks like the lens shift only works in one direction. If it were ceiling mounted, that would mean it allows you to shift the picture further DOWN if necessary, when I need to be able to shift it up (closer to the ceiling). Am I correctly understanding how it works?

I still think the JVC fits you best, so I'll rinse and repeat one final time...

Keep in mind that a JVC RS-45 B-Stock comes with the original 2 Year JVC warranty, and is going for under $1800 on Ebay at the JVC PRO-STORE, and this projector is in a completely different class than a Benq w1500 (though 3D isn't good on the JVC's, everything else other than gaming LAG --- JVC will beat it). If you can buy it with an AMEX card (or some other cards), you can make it have a 3-year warranty, and you can NOW get original JVC replacement lamps for only $260.

For the type of use you are describing, I think the JVC B-Stock is the FAR better choice, even though you do pay a bit more. Keep in mind the B-Stock JVC projectors are usually not exactly the same as what some MFR's call refurbs.

The JVC has a real-world contrast ratio over 30,000:1, while the w1500's real contrast ratio is likely around 2000:1, that's a 1,500% increase in contrast ratio for JVC (real-world not MFR lies).
It also has MOTORIZED everything, focus, lens, lens memory, you name it.

It also has 3x more lens shift than the w1500 or w1070 and is much easier to setup. It doesn't sound like you are overly focused on gaming or 3D, and in that case the JVC will easily be worth the extra $1000 if you can manage it.


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Old 07-19-2013, 08:12 AM
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I agree with Coderguy in that the a B-stock RS45 (or RS40) would be a good choice. Among my current projectors I have a RS40 projecting onto a 120" screen with a real world gain of about 1.2 and when used in a fully light controlled room it is plenty bright even when operaterd in best calibrated mode. It is certainly better for movie viewing than any of the DLP projectors in this price range. The DLP projectors would be better for gaming (less lag) and would provide less 3D crosstalk (ghosting) and some DLP models will provide a brighter 3D image. However for 2D movie viewing the JVC is a clear winner.


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Old 07-19-2013, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Its my understand the W1500's lens shift range is very similar to that of the W1070. In either case the projector must mounted just a few inches above the top of the screen. BenQ uses an odd way to express the range of the lens shift when they spec it as 30% of the 1/2 height of the screen. In other words its 15% of the vertical size of the screen which for a 120" diagonal screen, which is about 58" high, this would mean the image can only be shifted over a range of only 8.7". Also for the example of using a ceiling mounted W1070 with a 120" screen, the lowest position for the projector (center of lens) is about 3 inches above the top of the projected image..

Interesting, thanks. This W1500 spec sheet confirms what you said about a 120" screen needing to be at least 3" below the center of the lens. That's actually good news, since I was assuming it had to be at least a 9" offset. If I have the picture start only 3" below the lens, that allows the distance between ceiling and lens center to be 5.4". Should be able to find a low profile mount that works.

Coderguy - appreciate your thoughts. The JVC looks like a great PJ but my budget is <$1500 for a new one. The W1500 is slightly north of that now but should come down as more vendors have it in stock.
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