Brightness compared to TV - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I have an LCD TV that I bought before I got married. It lists brightness as 450.0 cd/m2. The room it is in is very bright (3 windows, 1 skylight, 1 huge glass door, all with shades). Kinda like having home-theater-in-a-greenhouse. My wife doesn't like how the room is set up, and I want a 2nd TV for our bedroom. I wondered if putting my existing TV in the bedroom and replacing it with a projector was an option. Projectors list brightness in lumens, so I have no idea how they'd compare to the existing TV.

Wikipedia says a foot candle is about 10.764 lux. My TV screen is about .75 square meters, so it is about 337.5 foot candles, or 3632.85 lux, which is 4843.8 lumens (again using screen size). Screen size cancelled, so I could have just multiplied by 10.764. Even if I did the conversion correctly, comparing the 2 means the manufactures spec'd both accurately (fat chance).

So is a 4843.8 lumen projector about as bright as a 450.0 cd/m2 TV? Or is one significantly brighter than the other?
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post #2 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 11:41 AM
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Projectors reflect the light off the screen unlike a TV that emits the light and image directly. Your room is not a candidate for front projection as you need a room with NO light and no reflective surfaces to achieve a good image. How bright the projector is will not fix the problem of basic physics.

In a projected image, dark areas are areas where the projector does not send light. It does not project black, it just does not light that area of the image. So in a room with any light your dark areas will be no darker than they screen is when the projector is off.
For example, if you look at the screen image below, that is what black would look like if there was an image projected at the time the photo was taken, unlike the TV next to it.



So unless you can remove ALL ambient light whenever you want to watch TV, you will need a TV along with the projection screen.

Below is the same screen (only full size now) at night with black panels on the ceiling



Light is measured in both fl and cd/m2, a projection screen in a Dark room with dark walls and ceiling and no ambient light should reflect about 16fl or 55 cd/m2 to produce a good image that will not produce eye strain in the dark room.

A large flat screen would be more appropriate for your environment.
Hope that helps!
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post #3 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 02:15 PM
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like he said above, nobody has ever replaced an LCD with a projector because their room was too bright. that's completely the opposite.

the biggest problem is the blacks. it's pretty hard to make a white screen look black. with projectors, you need very little light in the room so that the white screen looks black like it's supposed to.

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post #4 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 02:35 PM
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If you are having some brightness issues, you may want to consider a high brightness LCD display instead of a standard consumer LCD display. Companies such as Sunbrite make displays which are significantly brighter than a typical indoor LCD display which may help you to overcome your needs for a bit more brightness out of your TV.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
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post #5 of 18 Old 08-20-2013, 06:55 PM
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Have you ever walked into a movie theater that's painted white? With lots of windows? Didn't think so.

We have a bright, skylight room on the beach. An LCD is the only viable display for that situation (works well). Kinda like yours.

Most bedrooms are designed for controlled, subdued lighting and may work well with a projector. Unfortunately, most Deciders (i.e., wives) aren't keen on having a projector hovering above the pillows and a bare undecorated wall facing the headboard.

Then, there's always the mancave (going underground) basement approach. "Dig We Must".....
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post #6 of 18 Old 08-21-2013, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Everyone seems to think my issue is the room being to bright. It isn't. The LCD works fine with the shades closed, and 90% of the time with all the shades open.

My issue is my wife does not like the way the room is set up. Before I discuss with her the possibility of buying a projector and screen instead, I want to know if it is even viable. I am willing to lose a little brightness, but obviously don't want a picture that is completely unviewable.
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post #7 of 18 Old 08-21-2013, 02:10 PM
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How will your wife handle pulling the shades everytime you want to watch TV? With a projector that is likely going to be necessary.

Perhaps you can send some pictures of your room so people really understand your situation?

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post #8 of 18 Old 08-21-2013, 04:51 PM
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Ask us about configuring your Man Cave -- we're right there.

Ask us about the finer points of Interior Decorating.... well....
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post #9 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

Ask us about configuring your Man Cave -- we're right there.
If you don't want to build a cave, then you need a special screen like the Supernova. In this setup the screen is standing outside of the tent!
http://www.hifi-forum.de/bild/dnp-triplescreen_238343.html
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post #10 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 07:03 AM - Thread Starter
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If you don't want to build a cave, then you need a special screen like the Supernova. In this setup the screen is standing outside of the tent! http://www.hifi-forum.de/bild/dnp-triplescreen_238343.html

Now this is an interesting product. How can I buy it and about how much does it cost?

I actually watch very little TV and Movies, and almost never before it gets dark, so it isn't an issue for me. What I want to avoid is my wife falling in love with the idea of all my equipment sitting behind the couch opposite the viewing area, buying a $1000+ projector, and then hearing her complain she can't see anything before 6pm. Either this is a viable option for the room or it isn't, and I don't understand how to figure that out without actually buying a projector.
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post #11 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 07:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is the room:


The wall on the right, opposite the windows, is where I have my TV, and where I'd put the screen. I can't think of any other setup that makes sense. The room is 16' x 19', so even my 52" LCD looks tiny. Floor real estate is more valuable in the front of the room, so moving the equipment to the back near the windows and having a huge screen is tempting.

Of course, ambient light is hard to gauge from a photo. There are 3 windows total (2 not seen) on the same wall. The side of the room I took this picture from has a huge glass door onto the patio.
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post #12 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 08:30 AM
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You could make this work. Mount some vertical blinds above that window that can be drawn aside during daytime. Ditto with the huge glass patio door.

Looks like the PJ's going above that window too -- would be about a 14-foot throw to the opposite wall. One good thing about that white wall: You can start out using that as your screen. What with the room being so bright (and a wife who probably doesn't want Lights Out for viewing), there's no point in enthusiast-level obsession about black levels -- a sub-thousand-dollar PJ will fill the bill. Best candidates would be the BenQ 1070 or maybe the Acer 6510 (cheaper and brighter). Should get a nice big image (140 inches, say) that's watchable during the day (with some drapes turned) and decent at night with some near-the-window ambient light (not that ceiling fluorescent).

A darker rug thrown over the floor in front of that screen wall would help both the image and the acoustics.
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post #13 of 18 Old 08-22-2013, 08:55 AM
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My first thought is to rig some floor to ceiling retractable theater/blackout curtains along the length of the room where that half wall is. Covering the window on the wall would be easy. Would that take care of your light problem?
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post #14 of 18 Old 08-23-2013, 09:50 PM
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Well you have to think like a lady a bit on this one. First will she really appreciate the added equipment in the room? I know of no women who like seeing hanging projectors, or even rolled up screens on the ceiling, nor added stereos, and speaker systems. They like clean simple, and neat with a room that is warm and fuzzy, which you won't get with a projector setup. If you look in home and garden magazines they don't show these kinds of setups and Im sure she would rather have something that looks like something from one of those magazines. Second, will she be tolerant of having to always close shades before she watches, turn on the stereo, turn on the projector then wait for it to come on in ten seconds, then deal with less than stellar picture quality because even a little bit of light plus white walls will destroy the picture quality even with the shades part way down. What are her routines and habits right now? does she like to wake up and make the bed, or go around and close shades and curtains at night then open them up during the day? Having to do this everyday to watch tv is a pain, and believe me it gets old quickly with all this kind of setup, when you could simply turn on a tv instead. Also think about how us guys can lock ourselves away in the garage and work for hours on end, whereas most ladies would probably prefer to stay far away from this. Most ladies I know like to have sunshine coming through the windows so they can avoid a seasonal affective disorder situation. Will your wife really want to spend all of her days in a dark room like a movie theater?

Its nice to enjoy regular tv in sunlight during the day and turn it on numerous times during the day off and on. This is something you don't want to do with these lamps in projectors as it adds stress to the bulb and wears them out quicker, plus they don't last very long, and even though a lamp may be rated for say 4000 hours, this doesn't take into consideration the half life of the bulb, which means that half way through there you may lose up to 50% of its brightness. Then you'll start cringing when the wife leaves the projector on all day for junk tv programs knowing you'll have to spend another 300 bucks on a projector bulb. Hell a lot of people including myself have lamps that burn out half way before their rated hours, which really sucks. The only benefit to having the projector is a big screen in this environment, but there are lots of cons. Im a die hard movie buff, with my own dedicated home theater, and I find it a pain to always have to go through and turn everything on plus having to deal with multiple remotes since I don't have a universal. My mom has a skylight halfway between the projector and screen, and she won't watch movies with any light coming through that thing because it has that much of an effect on it.

If it were me, I'd buy a cheap 50 or 60 inch screen tv, then get another cheaper projector to sort of split the difference, so you can enjoy both . It doesn't sound like you watch much, so maybe the quality isn't as important to spend tons of money on expensive tvs or projectors. You can get an ultra bright projector to cut through the light, but in the end I still think the cons out way the pros
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-24-2013, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

Im a die hard movie buff, with my own dedicated home theater, and I find it a pain to always have to go through and turn everything on plus having to deal with multiple remotes since I don't have a universal.

A movie buff should at least have a try on the logitech harmony. I immediately ditched all my 5 remotes after setup the 650. It was a pain to setup, but once done, it does all the remote duties nicely, and exceeded my expectations. Being able to customize button names on the LCD screen is a real plus if you want to integrate different devices as they have difference names for a button. The remote emitter is more powerful than most basic remotes so you have a lot less chance of missing a command.
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post #16 of 18 Old 08-24-2013, 08:04 AM
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Hey D James, some of us are ladies who enjoy our woman caves with projector setups.
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post #17 of 18 Old 08-24-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d james View Post

If it were me, I'd buy a cheap 50 or 60 inch screen tv, then get another cheaper projector to sort of split the difference, so you can enjoy both . It doesn't sound like you watch much, so maybe the quality isn't as important to spend tons of money on expensive tvs or projectors. You can get an ultra bright projector to cut through the light, but in the end I still think the cons out way the pros
This is worth exploring. But I would still put the vertical blinds in. They're rather unobtrusive when they're pulled to the side, and are quite versatile and easy to adjust the direction and flow of light into the room.

Start with the projector and evolve. The Acer 6510 is small, light, cheap and bright (check out the special Great Found Deals thread here on AVS). Place it on a coffee table in front of the couch. You can always sell it on eBay and reset, if need be.

If it works for you, make a small shelf for it up behind the couch, put some objects d'art or plants next to it as camouflage and mount some art (tapestry?) below it and you're done. I wouldn't worry about bulb life -- the Acer bulb is rated to last for a couple of years, and the replacement bulb is not very expensive relative to a pay-TV subscription.

If the PJ looks like it might work but you still want a "regular" display, put the flatscreen catty-corner from the window (near where the photo was taken), making room on the adjacent wall for the projected image. Get an inexpensive low-slung Tech Craft credenza to park the flatscreen and your A/V gear. (I'd recommend the Tech Craft in any case.)
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post #18 of 18 Old 08-24-2013, 03:45 PM
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Now this is an interesting product. How can I buy it and about how much does it cost?
Homepage of the producer:
http://www.dnp-screens.com/
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