3D or Not 3D, That is the Question - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm either going to get a used/older higher end 2D projector like the JVC RS1, or a new cheaper 3D projector like the W1070.

Today I went to a video shop to demo a 3D projector to see what I thought of it. I've have not seen any of the Avatar era 3D films in the theaters so I didn't know what to expect.

I wasn't that impressed. It was neat, for sure, but not sure it added all that much to the experience of watching a film, or not enough to go for a lower end projector over a higher end.

One thing to consider: I demoed two Epsons, all they had, both LCD so I saw a lot of crosstalk and of course that impacted the experience. I'm going to try to find a DLP projector to demo 3D in, see if I see rainbows, etc.

Given the basic situation I've outlined, my question remains:

3D or not 3D?
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post #2 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 09:11 PM
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3D.
The 1070 I had showed close to no crosstalk and the picture quality was great for the price. I was unfortunate to see rainbows all the time so had to give it up though.
I now have a 5010 which I could not be happier about. 3D quality is superb, I have been watching a lot of 3D content and been loving it.
My 2 cents.
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post #3 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for responding, Gurt!

I figure I have to give DLP a chance before I turn my back on 3D completely.

Forgot to mention that I might have a chance to check out a Sharp XV-Z30000 if it hasn't sold already as well. Supposed to have decent 2D and 3D and no rainbows even though its DLP.
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post #4 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 10:40 PM
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Which Epsons did you demo that showed a lot of crosstalk. The 5020 and 3020 are supposed to be a couple of the better LCDs available in terms of crosstalk. Also the brightest.

If you want to look at a relatively inexpensive DLP, check out the Optoma HD25e or HD25-LV. They are a couple of the brightest DLPs and are supposed to be pretty nice.
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post #5 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw the 3020 and then a more expensive model, something 6000.

I actually didn't notice that much crosstalk on the 3020 but the screen it was being projected on was so terrible--roll up screen with a shiny sandpapery texture that hotspotted badly. Ruined the center of the image.

The other model was on a much better screen but that was also the one where I saw the most crosstalk, or at least that's what I think it was. The image would kind of shift out of focus or blur and every so often would brighten and then dim for no apparent reason. Perhaps they just had it badly set up but I was not impressed.
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post #6 of 17 Old 09-08-2013, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post

I saw the 3020 and then a more expensive model, something 6000.

I actually didn't notice that much crosstalk on the 3020 but the screen it was being projected on was so terrible--roll up screen with a shiny sandpapery texture that hotspotted badly. Ruined the center of the image.

The other model was on a much better screen but that was also the one where I saw the most crosstalk, or at least that's what I think it was. The image would kind of shift out of focus or blur and every so often would brighten and then dim for no apparent reason. Perhaps they just had it badly set up but I was not impressed.

It sounds like the 2nd unit you saw was the 6020, which is the same as the 5020 but sold only through dealers with an extra bulb, extra year warranty, and a mount. That unit should produce crosstalk on the same level as the 3020 (meaning hardly any).

What it sounds like you are describing is exactly what happens when the battery runs out on the glasses. If it was crosstalk, it would be more subtle (especially on those sets). If it was downright awful looking and offensive to your eyes, it was probably the battery dying.
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post #7 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 11:07 AM
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Just didn't want to think there was something I missed.

I just demoed the 5020 at my local shop, but as a helpful member here helped me figure out, the battery was dying on the 3D glasses they gave in the store, so the 3D effect itself looked horrible. The image itself apart from that looked very nice though. It's a lot more expensive than the others listed here, no? Why narrow the field down to that and the Optima and isn't that Optima much cheaper than the Epson as well?

The Epson is over 2x as much as the Optoma, but I'd be willing to pay that if it's worth it. Key word: IF. Almost everything I'm seeing is saying the Epson has brighter 3D, but the Optoma has cleaner (less crosstalk) 3D. The Epson also has a better warranty with stellar customer service. Unfortunately, with the Epson there is a good chance you will need to use the customer service because they seem to be more problematic. Epson also has much cheaper 3D glasses available.

If you read the paragraph above, you get why I try to avoid price. Epson is more expensive, but if you add several pairs of glasses, another year of warranty, a brighter picture in 3D, and better contrast and it negates the price.

My previous projector was a Mitsubishi HD100U, which was a 720p DLP projector from several years ago. I remember thinking there is no way any image could look better than what that looked like, and that was for a mid-grade projector back then (albeit highly rated).

There are a million variables to buying a projector. I'd happily take a $1000 HD25e if it had similar 3D brightness as the 5020ub.
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post #8 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hah, I didn't realize you were the same person in that other thread. I should pay more attention to screen names. Why did you rule out the W1070? Rainbows?

Another question for all of you:

How Does 3D on a Front Projector Compare to 3D on a higher end LED TV?

I ask because I went to Best Buy to see what they had to demo and their "home theater" guy wasn't available, so I ended up looking at a higher end 3D LED TV instead. I was blown away by the effect. Very VERY impressive. I was ready to walk away from 3D after my lackluster experience with the Epson demo (NOT a fault of the Epsons but a combination of terrible screen and the dying battery with the glasses) now I think I want the option of 3D.

So ... how do they compare? I'm assuming that since the picture quality on a high end LED is better than anything I could probably afford projector wise, that that plays a big role, but what of the technology itself? Is LED TV 3D that much better than FP 3D, or the same or what?

What do you all think?
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post #9 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 03:27 PM
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In a proper room a projector will surpass any LCD TV in almost all respects. DLP 3D is the only tech that is 100% ghost free with properly functioning glass. You didn't say if the TV you looked at was passive or active. Now I did say proper room in that it has 100% light control and dark walls, ceiling and floors with a good fixed frame screen. Size alone will make the biggest difference in 3D, black level may be a little worse but generally all else will be better then the TV. If the proper room is not an option then there is a lot to consider between a TV and projector. Passive LCD from the right distance does show well in a showroom environment, active can have problems in show rooms as room lighting will not be ideal.

Smart enough to know better, to old to care
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post #10 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 04:23 PM
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Also, passive will maintain brightness but take a hit in resolution.

Once again: Trade offs.
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post #11 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 05:07 PM
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definitely audition a good 3D experience before you decide... but, my vote will always be for the best 2D experience possible. i've never watched a 3D movie(theatres included) that did not make everything not 3D slightly worse. so i still think you're making a trade off of 'gimmicky effects' for picture quality and comfort.

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post #12 of 17 Old 09-09-2013, 10:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

definitely audition a good 3D experience before you decide... but, my vote will always be for the best 2D experience possible. i've never watched a 3D movie(theatres included) that did not make everything not 3D slightly worse. so i still think you're making a trade off of 'gimmicky effects' for picture quality and comfort.

What do you mean by "everything not 3D?" Do you mean scenes in the movie that don't have much 3D to them? I thought the whole thing was supposed to have that 3D depth? Or did you mean watching 2D material on a system designed for 3D?

The short amount of time I spent watching the 3D TV has pretty much sold me on the technology whereas I would have been quicker to dismiss it as just a gimmick prior ...
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post #13 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post

How Does 3D on a Front Projector Compare to 3D on a higher end LED TV?

One important difference is that 3D on a front projector (assuming it's a larger image) will have a more pronounced 3D effect. If we're talking about a movie on Blu-ray, the 3D was made to be viewed on the large movie screen. When you play back the same left and right images on a much smaller TV, the result is the 3D gets shallower. There's no way to expand the 3D except to make the screen bigger.

And I agree it's not a gimmick. Some people don't like it, but I think stereoscopic 3D is an essential part of human vision and it doesn't make sense to leave out something fundamental (as long as it's done well). I feel this justifies the few drawbacks like needing glasses or a dimmer image vs 2D. For brightness by the way, I'd recommend a high gain screen. That solves that problem!
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post #14 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 04:16 AM
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It will be a lot better once it properly mimics our vision, and although I'm not sure I'd call it a gimmick, it's still got a ways to go overall.



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post #15 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It will be a lot better once it properly mimics our vision

The only limitation I'm aware of is the lenses of our eyes need to focus at the distance of the screen, while our left and right eyes converge as if there is no screen. As our brains prioritize the two, focus provides a weak 3D clue, while convergence (stereoscopic 3D) provides a strong one. Stereoscopic 3D is a sort of sixth sense, unique with it's own neural pathways, but obviously dependent on sight first of all. This is why 3D technology works. This mimics our real vision far better than 2D.

There are numerous 3D cues we get from 2D images, but they are all spoiled by our strong stereoscopic vision. No matter how a movie is shot, our brains, with the input from our left and right eyes, is set up to interpret a physically flat image for what it is- 2D. While 3D technology isn't perfect, at least it alleviates this glaring stereoscopic contradiction.

Many people say holograms are the answer. But how do you create a hologram of a distant landscape in you room without severely miniaturizing it?
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post #16 of 17 Old 09-10-2013, 08:49 AM
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Decent 3D projection on a giant screen will certainly surpass any smaller screen HDTV experience. Bummer that your demo of it wasn't the greatest for sure.
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post #17 of 17 Old 09-11-2013, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tangled Cable View Post

What do you mean by "everything not 3D?" Do you mean scenes in the movie that don't have much 3D to them? I thought the whole thing was supposed to have that 3D depth? Or did you mean watching 2D material on a system designed for 3D?

The short amount of time I spent watching the 3D TV has pretty much sold me on the technology whereas I would have been quicker to dismiss it as just a gimmick prior ...

yeah, sorry, I knew that was going to cause confusion but wasn't sure how to describe it. all the scenes that don't really take advantage of that 'pop out in your face' 3D effect.

it's tough to explain, but I guess the audio analogy would be having surround sound and talking about all the stuff coming out of the front speakers.

having to view 100% of the movie through the glasses and only being impressed 5% of the time by 3D effects, I don't want to give up ANYTHING over the 2D picture quality to get that. and currently, I feel you have to give up quite a bit over the 2D picture quality to get that. when you can close one eye and not know whether you're watching 3D or 2D, that'll be when I adopt 3D fully. until then, it's like a side-show act that's neat to play around with once and a while, but it'll never be the main attraction in my home

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