I feel 60 Hz SBS 3D is much better than 24hz 3D BD.... Am I wrong? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 18 Old 10-03-2013, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I bought an Optoma HD-131xe projector but because of the throw range I had to find another projector. I found a great deal on the Acer H6510BD projector and bought It well aware of the fact that it was 120 Hz and not 144 Hz like the Benq W1070.

I have tried different materials but I just can't get 24 Hz BD 3D to look comfortable. I want to share my thoughts:
a.) I get alot of rainbows watching 24 Hz material
b.) I get alot of stuttering watching 24 Hz material
c.) I get alot of flickering in white areas watching 24 Hz Material

now, my last point:
d.) 1080p SBS .mkv running at 60 Hz makes this projector absolutely FANTASTIC. No rainbows, No stuttering because I can run the Smooth Video Project and no white flickering.

Now, a projector with 144 Hz wouldnt get the white flicker and less rainbows with 24 Hz 3D BD, but watching 24 Hz stuttering in 3D would still be a pain in the ***.

Conclusion:
The Acer H6510BD is an excellent 3D projector for 60 Hz SBS .mkv content but a poor projector for 24 Hz BD.
Other projectors like the optoma 133xe or the benq W1070 would have better 24 Hz playback but still not watchable in my opinion. The soap-opera effect that you get from using Smooth Video Project is a MUST in 3D.

Perhaps I missed something? Is it possible to output 24 Hz 3D BD with 60 Hz from the computer?
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post #2 of 18 Old 10-03-2013, 05:44 PM
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I agree 100% I got ghosting when viewing at 24hz 60hz is perfect on my HD 131xe...I realize your now using a different projector.
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post #3 of 18 Old 10-04-2013, 02:50 PM
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Solw, have you ever tried to get SVP working in 60 HZ with a real 3D Bluray stored on a disc?

I have a bunch of Blurays at home, and am really curious about this, as I love smoother video. I realize SBS is 1/2 the rez, but so what, if it's more than 2x the smoothness. 1/2 the res of already high enough res is more than good enough. I think better framerate will help the 3D effect more than more resolution.

If I wanted to try this, should I just d/l some mkvs or just make my own from my Bluray discs I own? I don't relish the notion of spending too much time and effort, not to mention the added storage space required for conversion from frame packed to SBS.

There must be a way to just pop in a 3D Bluray into a player and have SVP + SBS automatically play at 1080p / 60 without ripping + pre-processing it.
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post #4 of 18 Old 10-04-2013, 05:05 PM
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I have watched three bluray sbs rips from my htpc set to output 1080p at 60hz.... I have not tried my panny BDT 210 with a 3d movie and 60 hz. Its on my list when I get home tomorrow.
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post #5 of 18 Old 10-05-2013, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post

Solw, have you ever tried to get SVP working in 60 HZ with a real 3D Bluray stored on a disc? I have a bunch of Blurays at home, and am really curious about this, as I love smoother video. I realize SBS is 1/2 the rez, but so what, if it's more than 2x the smoothness. 1/2 the res of already high enough res is more than good enough. I think better framerate will help the 3D effect more than more resolution.If I wanted to try this, should I just d/l some mkvs or just make my own from my Bluray discs I own? I don't relish the notion of spending too much time and effort, not to mention the added storage space required for conversion from frame packed to SBS.There must be a way to just pop in a 3D Bluray into a player and have SVP + SBS automatically play at 1080p / 60 without ripping + pre-processing it.

I have not tried that. If that would work then it's wonderful... I have a gut feeling it isn't possible with my cpu and graphics card even if it exists... I shall try this afternoon, great idea!

About the lower resolution - it can be compromised by using MADvr together with SVP. madvr increases picture quality in a nice way smile.gif
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post #6 of 18 Old 10-05-2013, 03:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Good
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post #7 of 18 Old 10-06-2013, 08:23 PM
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Sol, don't forget that SVP is quite often way more CPU bound than GPU bound. I am still running an AMD 6970 2GB from like five years ago, something like that, and kept it when I upgraded my system from a Core 2 to a Haswell, and now 1080p / 60 hz never gives me problems (aside from the annoyance of SVP + MPC not actually working with multiple windows at the same time smile.gif hehe).

I know that SVP will install itself into your Bluray PowerDVD / HomeTheater whatever software. Now that I've given away my PS3 to my niece, I'm going to have to figure this out. I'll try various options on the weekend and post back here with my results for the best way to get automatic SVP on 3D Blurays (if it's possible, I tried it once a long time ago but SVP didn't like 3D very much back then.). If you make any discoveries, let me know too.

Thx.
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post #8 of 18 Old 10-18-2013, 10:31 AM
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I am glad I found this thread!

Playing a 24hz movie on a projector is just bad... I was so happy my projector has frame interpolation but it is not available with 3D. Playing an SBS movie at 60 hz is already much better, but still not good enough to even enjoy a movie :S

I tried installing SVP, however when I try to play a SBS movie I get no video (black screen). The movie plays as I do hear audio. How did you manage to get it working?

If this works I plan to re-encode 3D movies to 60hz SBS and play them on my regular bluray player (avoiding cinavia eventhough I buy my movies frown.gif )
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post #9 of 18 Old 10-18-2013, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUglyBad View Post

I am glad I found this thread!

Playing a 24hz movie on a projector is just bad...( )


Your doing it wrong, or your projector is no good.
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post #10 of 18 Old 10-18-2013, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

Your doing it wrong, or your projector is no good.

I am using an Oppo 103 straight on a Epson 9100W projector. For example Gladiator on 24hz has scenes I just cant stand. Setting 'low frame interpolation' makes a lot of difference.

It could also be me. I am getting older and maybe my brains process stuff worse.
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post #11 of 18 Old 10-18-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post

I agree 100% I got ghosting when viewing at 24hz 60hz is perfect on my HD 131xe...I realize your now using a different projector.
I'm confused by this. As far as I can figure out, my HTPC at least will only allow 1080p@24hz for the HD131xe, and that I understood was interpolated to 144hz for the RF glasses I have.

That would be superior to 720p @ 60hz (the only 60hz option available) which would only be scaled to 120hz for a lower refresh rate.

Am I totally confused here, or does that sound right?
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post #12 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducman69 View Post

I'm confused by this. As far as I can figure out, my HTPC at least will only allow 1080p@24hz for the HD131xe, and that I understood was interpolated to 144hz for the RF glasses I have.

That would be superior to 720p @ 60hz (the only 60hz option available) which would only be scaled to 120hz for a lower refresh rate.

Am I totally confused here, or does that sound right?
yes at720p@60hz the xbmc sbs content looks better than at 1080p@24hz or 60hz..... I get ghosting when displaying at the 1080p resolutions from my htpc and I'm not sure why...
Now when I use my panny 3d bluray player for full frame packed, 1080p@24hz works best... 1080p@ 60 hz produces a high wacky resolution seen by the projector which then just displays black....

I read somewhere that SBS 3d content was designed for 120hz (which is achieved at 60hz output) so...
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post #13 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 07:40 AM
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You can only do 1080p 3D @ 60hz with a DVI-D input, apparently the new Optoma eh501 that I just posted about supports it through its DVI-D according to its own manual (but not yet confirmed by an AVS user). It will theoretically be the first low-cost 16:9 projector I know of to where you can finally play a game at full 1080p 3D @ 60hz. It streets for around $1700 though, so still out of the range of some.

Note that the HZ you end up with isn't the same as what you start with, the difference is called the pulldown mode. A 3D display isn't the same because it is per eye, so 144hz is more like seeing 72hz, and 120hz is more like seeing 60hz, but the problem becomes that in 3D you are actually just having 1080p 24hz triple flashed to 72hz per eye, which if fine for movies, but gaming requires an even faster originating framerate.

With these projectors @ 1080p 3d, you are essentially limited in games to seeing a reduced frame rate, even if the 24hz is converted to 72hz it doesn't increase the allowed # of frames per second, it is only repeating the same frame over again to give the effect of smoother motion. Since games need a higher frame rate than movies (even after being triple flashed) and they need higher refresh rates in general, that is where the problem is, that is why 720p @ 60hz > 1080p @ 24hz, regardless of any frame magic enhancing tech.



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post #14 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUglyBad View Post

I am using an Oppo 103 straight on a Epson 9100W projector. For example Gladiator on 24hz has scenes I just cant stand. Setting 'low frame interpolation' makes a lot of difference.

It could also be me. I am getting older and maybe my brains process stuff worse.

Eew, I'd say you are in the minority. It should be smooth at 24p. FI creates unnecessary judder as it tries to process IMO, not to mention artifacts galore around moving objects.

Did you watch hobbit in 48fps?
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post #15 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 07:59 AM
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There is no right or wrong answer to FI, it is purely a user preference. Besides just smoothing frames, FI does actually increase motion resolution beyond the limited 200 to 400 pixels up to about 800 with FI enabled that we tend to get on these lower end displays. I was even surprised to find out that FI increased motion resolution on the tests we ran in the $3000+ forum, but it apparently it does.

So what he is seeing at 24hz isn't fake, he is correct, you lose a ton of motion resolution in fast moving images in 24hz content. It is better not to see it though, because it can take away from your enjoyment. Believe me I have gone through the stages of being driven batty with motion resolution issues, but eventually you just try to ignore it.

The Runco/Planars are said to have the best motion resolution without FI engaged, though I've never personally run the test pattern on that one myself.



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post #16 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 08:07 AM
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There is a solution to your motion resolution problems.


It's big, and loud, and old though tongue.gif
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post #17 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 08:15 AM
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I already own a 4" portable black and white CRT from the 1980's, nice try though eek.gif



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post #18 of 18 Old 10-19-2013, 02:28 PM
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Back in the 80's I could watch anything no matter how bad the source or display was smile.gif Everything was cool back then because you really had to try hard getting stuff wink.gif

@Verge2. No I haven't seen The Hobbit yet. But if its released on 48hz bluray then please provide link where to buy smile.gif

@coderguy. I try to ignore it too in most movies smile.gif But trying costs energy and concentration. 2D movies are usually not that much a problem but with 3D I find myself constantly trying too hard and so not getting into the film frown.gif


So SVP on SBS 3D is my final hope.. I just cant it to work yet... Right now I am trying to encode an SBS to 60hz following the guide http://www.spirton.com/convert-videos-to-60fps/ . When its done I will try that.
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