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post #1 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a very small home theater. 13'x12'x7'. I know acoustically it's far from ideal. I'm currently looking at a 70" sony led to replace my 101fd for a while, at least till oled on a larger scale is priced right. I've been thinking about going the projector route. I have complete control over ambient light in the room. My big concern is the dimensions of my room. I can possibly cut a hole in the rear wall to make an enclosure for a projector, but I would like to avoid that option.Can anyone point me in the direction of a few projectors that would work in my room. I've tried the projection calculators on a few websites, but dont trully understand what I'm doing with them. It seems to always warn me to watch with ambient light present. Im assuming this is because of the throw distance. Any help would be greatly appreciated thx.
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post #2 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 12:23 PM
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When the calculators are saying "Recommended image brightness for ambient light" that's saying that the projector is expected to produce enough brightness to compensate for some ambient light in the room. They aren't saying that you need to have ambient light. Having no light other than that produced by the projector is considered ideal.

If anything what you will have to watch for is potentially too bright of an image from the projector in a small room that is completely dark. But with low lamp settings, calibration and in extreme cases a neutral density filter I think you should certainly be able to make a projector work in your room.

Post some pictures, describe your setup and keep reading other threads around here and you'll be able to settle in on something that will work for you.

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post #3 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 12:29 PM
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Those are the dimensions of my bedroom and I have a pj setup in there which I think works rather well. Since its not huge, you can have a smaller stereo setup that will rock that room. I have my projector on the 12ft wall about three feet from the corner, shining in the middle of the wall projecting on a 92 inch screen which I don't always use. I like to project right onto the wall, which gives me about 110 inch, which works great. I believe the standard for distance and screen size is 1.5 times the distance for 720p and 1.2 x distance for 1080p. So to calculate the distance would be 92 inch screen size x 1.2 = 110.4 divide by 12 inches = 9.2 feet back from screen. So you could do two rows of seating from the back of the wall one from 13 on a riser, then the other from 9, and you would have a good arrangement. I wouldn't buy screen until you know how big you want it, you may want 110, which to me is not objectionable even from 6 feet away. Each person has their own comfort level, but with two rows, people who don't want to be close can go to the back row.

Far as those calculators, they can be confusing, I just go by the SMPTE Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers which have a standard for theater dark lumens at 16 lumens on screen, in such a theater, they recommend no less than 12 lumens and no more than 21. To calculate it it is lumens of projector divided by sq ft of the screen, so for 110 it is 4.5 ft tall by 8 ft wide = 36 sq ft. My projector is 1600 lumens/36= 44 Or you can calculate sq ft image area x foot lamberts to get lumens needed, so 36 x 16= 576 lumens. Keep in mind any ambient light will require more lumens, and projector bulbs do dim. I like to read reviews to see what the best color mode of a projector produces far as lumens. So with my Epson 6500, that 1600 lumens is only for its brightest mode, but its best mode I think was around 600. I can say even with lots of light coming through around the closed shades in the day, it still look pretty good.

There are lots of projectors to choose from, and it just depends on how you want to setup the projector. For me I needed lens shift which allows a me to put the projector in different areas of the room without changing the shape of the picture. if you are mounting to the ceiling, you may not need lens shift and can save some money. One DLP projector I read about throws a 100 inch from only five feet. I think it was an optoma gaming one. Most projectors should provide enough lumens where you won't have to worry. You don't need to cut a hole in your wall, if your mounting on the ceiling, then many options are available. It really depends on what you are looking for far as features, price range, and projector placement. Let us know and we can give you some suggestions.
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post #4 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 12:45 PM
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Just for your reference, my theater room is about 20 by 14 and I am looking at my screen from the shorter distance - maybe 12.5 feet. I still get a 120 inch diagonal image.

I actually did cut a port in the wall and put the projector behind it. I will just tell you how I did it. The hole is about 14 inches by six inches. I mounted the projector with the lens about five inches behind the plane of the wall. I got a very clean piece of plexiglass to go over the hole in the wall. When I projected onto my screen through the plexiglass I got it so the image size and aiming were close. I hoped to get lucky and to be able to see, on the plexiglass a faint image of the picture being projected through it. Luckily that was correct. I marked that on the plexiglass and carefully cut out that rectangle of the plexiglass window ( I made it maybe an eight inch larger) , so the image would have only air between the projector and the screen.

With the plexiglass on there, a remote control works when you point it in that direction. I made a frame around the plexiglass window with some baseboard pieces from HD using a miter box.

Everyone was telling me to worry about heat, so I got a roll of aluminum roof flashing and covered all surfaces around the projector.

Fortunately, the room behind me is the garage, so it all worked out. I started out with a Sony VW60.

I just wanted to tell you that, with proper planning and reasonable execution, the behind the wall mounting can work
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post #5 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been looking at different reviews, and narrowed it down to the Benq w1070 with an elite fixed 49x87x100. I watch alot of bluray, and do alot of gaming also. This projector seems to be a good bang for my buck. Does this setup seem like something that would work in my room? Ill post some pics in a bit.
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post #6 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 01:40 PM
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stea, the one big issue you will have is that you have been working with top shelf displays. The Pioneer you have been using is one of the best displays ever manufactured, and the W1070 is very entry level. It will have muddy black/greys which aren't even in the same realm as your Pioneer delivered.

That said, it is a good choice for the room, and I would go with a 100" to 110" diagonal screen size. I enjoy my W1070, but recognize that it doesn't hold a candle to my old Pioneer or my current Samsung display.

If you want a close representation of the black levels that those displays would deliver in a projector format, then the JVC RS46 (around 3 grand) is much closer, won't work from that distance, and doesn't fit your budget. So, I think you've made a solid decision if you are comfortable with greyish blacks.


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post #7 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Thankyou, I didn't realize the black levels were so bad on the unit. I'm prob just going to get the kdl70r550a for now. I just want something 70+ for the time being. I know it's not going to be as good as my pio, but then again not much is at this point. I have about 3k to spend, so I think at this point the sony is the way to go.
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post #8 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 02:11 PM
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You really should do some checking and give the guys at AVS a call to see what they can do for you pricing wise.

I think there is a good chance you can probably find a JVC for that $3k.

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post #9 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 02:38 PM - Thread Starter
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That 3k is with everything, proj, screen and mount. Plus its gotta be doable in my tiny room.
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post #10 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 02:51 PM
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well before you decide on a tv, maybe you should go to some local stores to see some projectors on display that have are around the same contrast ratio as the w1070. Sure the blacks won't be the same as the tv, but they may not be as bad as you might imagine.
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post #11 of 25 Old 10-23-2013, 03:12 PM
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With the RS46...

Allowing the recommended ~8" of rear clearance and accounting for the ~19" length you would be at ~10.75ft of throw distance. With that throw you could get close to a 110" diagonal screen (That's according to this calculator - http://pro.jvc.com/pro/lens_calc/HTML/jvc_REF.html)

If you cut a hole in the rear wall like you considered you could go up to 130" diagonal with a 13' throw.

Here's what the 70" TV you are considering looks like vs a 110" projected image:

http://www.displaywars.com/70-inch-16x9-vs-110-inch-16x9


Here it is vs the 130":

http://www.displaywars.com/70-inch-16x9-vs-130-inch-16x9


That big 70" TV doesn't look so big anymore...

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post #12 of 25 Old 10-25-2013, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently went to best buy and purchased an epson 3020 and a cheap 92" screen just to try it out. I love having the larger screen and convinced the wife this is the way to go. I'm going to return the epson and screen, and get the benq1070 with an electric 100" screen. I plan on leaving my pro101fd in the room and just using the projector for games and movies. Also going to grab a darbee for the benq. Thanks eveyone for your help. Cant wait to get everything setup, and ill post some pics.
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post #13 of 25 Old 10-25-2013, 01:40 PM
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Welcome to the world of projectors! It's a fun place!

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post #14 of 25 Old 10-25-2013, 02:44 PM
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I think I would chime in and say I would take a budget dlp front projector over a kuro anyday (assuming I had to use it and couldn't just sell it on), size really does matter.


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post #15 of 25 Old 11-02-2013, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I received my screen today and plan on mounting it and pulling my wires for the projector. I just want to make sure I run the wires to the correct spot. With my room dimensions and the 92" screen, using the benq calculator it's giving me a distance of 7"8" from lens to screen. This is actually not a very good location being that it's slightly ahead of my seating position. Projector central gave me a different distance, I'm just assuming the one direct from benq is more accurate. My question is, can I move the projector back a bit to get it behind, or above my seating position, without affecting the image quality too much. I'm new to the land of front projection and havent quite grasped the whole zoom thing. Is the zero point on the projector the optimum point for resolution and clarity? If I move the projector back and apply some zoom will I kill the image?
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post #16 of 25 Old 11-02-2013, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stea78 View Post

Hey guys, I received my screen today and plan on mounting it and pulling my wires for the projector. I just want to make sure I run the wires to the correct spot. With my room dimensions and the 92" screen, using the benq calculator it's giving me a distance of 7"8" from lens to screen. This is actually not a very good location being that it's slightly ahead of my seating position. Projector central gave me a different distance, I'm just assuming the one direct from benq is more accurate. My question is, can I move the projector back a bit to get it behind, or above my seating position, without affecting the image quality too much. I'm new to the land of front projection and havent quite grasped the whole zoom thing. Is the zero point on the projector the optimum point for resolution and clarity? If I move the projector back and apply some zoom will I kill the image?

As long as you can zoom it where you want it and it fills the screen I wouldn't be at all worried. The difference in such a setup is not worth worrying over.


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post #17 of 25 Old 11-03-2013, 07:41 AM
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As long as you can zoom it where you want it and it fills the screen I wouldn't be at all worried.

pNEg

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post #18 of 25 Old 11-03-2013, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stea78 View Post

Hey guys, I received my screen today and plan on mounting it and pulling my wires for the projector. I just want to make sure I run the wires to the correct spot. With my room dimensions and the 92" screen, using the benq calculator it's giving me a distance of 7"8" from lens to screen.
Do you understand zoom on a camera?

If yes: Then you get zoom on a projector! You zoom in and out and the image changes sizes. Where in that range you are does have some impact on image quality, but it is generally minimal and you should avoid the extents (closest/furthest).

If no: Go buy a camera and figure it out! biggrin.gif

No, really, the W1070 can be anywhere from 7'8" to 10'1" from a 92" screen without issue. I would recommend that you shoot for about 9'6" from lens to screen if you can as it is better to be towards the back end of any projector rather than the front end for image quality. For brightness you want to be closer, but the W1070 doesn't need ANY help with brightness, so go ahead and move it back a bit.

That's a pretty small screen size, but if that's what fits, then great. I would typically recommend at least 100" or larger. Assuming a 12' viewing distance and a desire for 'center of theater' feel, then that PROPER screen size is 110". It may seem large, but it is not. I have this discussion over and over with people, but screen size should start with THX recommendations for home theater.


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post #19 of 25 Old 11-04-2013, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I do understand zoom on a camera and the projector. I just didn't know where in the projectors throw range detail and clarity would be maximized. Given the sub par blacks levels of the 1070, I wanted the clarity to be at its best. As far as the screen size goes I would've loved to have gone bigger, but my mega traps in the front corners cover to much of the front wall to go any larger. Plus my submersive hp has already been flipped over and I built a custom rack for my erm 6.2 center, all to get them as low as possible. After all the changes the max fixed screen I could fit was 92".
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post #20 of 25 Old 11-04-2013, 08:41 AM
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stea - My first part was truly just me joking. People often don't get how similar the relationship is between cameras and projectors, but the rules are similar. A bit further back tends to be better.

These cheaper projectors have plastic lenses and are good, but not the same as what high-grade projectors will have in them. But, as I said, the proper placement for best image quality is towards the furthest point. About 75% of the way back is what I would shoot for if brightness allows for it. About 9'6" in the case of your 92" screen. Still to small, but you work with what you got!


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post #21 of 25 Old 11-08-2013, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Ive got everything setup. It looks fantastic, def better than the 3020 I returned to bestbuy. My only question is the geometry I can't get perfect without applying -1 to the keystone. I know it's frounded upon to use the keystone, but will one click do any damage to the image?
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post #22 of 25 Old 11-08-2013, 11:03 AM
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If the geometry is off it's probably that your projector isn't mounted square to the screen. Adjust one or the other before you mess with keystone.

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post #23 of 25 Old 11-08-2013, 12:21 PM
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Don't use keystone! Tilt the projector up/down/left/right so that the image is square, then use the lens shift to move the image back on screen.

As said above, if you need to use keystone, then the projector isn't square to the screen so the image isn't square on the screen.

If the bottom, for example, is a bit wider, than the projector is pointed down a bit. Tilt the projector up, then lens shift the image back down.


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post #24 of 25 Old 11-08-2013, 01:07 PM
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I would point out that most of these projectors don't have lens shift, or only have vertical lens shift in the case of the W1070 (and not much of that). So, definitely do your homework a little bit on positioning it before permanently mounting it, especially if you don't want to use any keystone. Check the specs in the manual and any information using the projectorcentral.com calculator.
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post #25 of 25 Old 11-11-2013, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys, I made a custom bracket for the projector which allowed me to raise it up about 1.5". It fixed my keystone issue, and made the geometry flawless. What a fantastic projector for the money. The blacks are not the best, but after doing a cal with my eyeone and calman, color and grayscale are damn near perfect. Thankyou to everyone for your help, I'm very happy with my setup. I'll post some pics when I get everything 100%.
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