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post #61 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

They still need HDMI 2.0 which the current JVC does not have. Probably next year.

The jvc projector this year is said to have the same chips that is 10gbps as the 4k Sonys
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post #62 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

The jvc projector this year is said to have the same chips that is 10gbps as the 4k Sonys

It still has HDMI 1.4 vs 2.0 on the Sony.
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post #63 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

It still has HDMI 1.4 vs 2.0 on the Sony.

They rate it as 1.4 even though it is 10gbps as the Sonys. They are able to do 4k60p with the same chips. This is what I heard, it could be true. Also, the fact that they do not have hdcp 2.2 is the reason that it can't play movies from the Sony server. So, even if it was hdmi 2.0 or 2.whatever, it would not play movies from the Sony server. It does take a 4k input to display 3840x2160p at 60hz
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post #64 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

They rate it as 1.4 even though it is 10gbps as the Sonys. They are able to do 4k60p with the same chips. This is what I heard, it could be true. Also, the fact that they do not have hdcp 2.2 is the reason that it can't play movies from the Sony server. So, even if it was hdmi 2.0 or 2.whatever, it would not play movies from the Sony server. It does take a 4k input to display 3840x2160p at 60hz

What you say may be true but it will not play movies from the Sony server and probably other new 4k sources at 60fps.

HDMI 2.0 specs.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/04/hdmi-2-0-official-4k-60fps-32-channel-audio/

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2423946,00.asp
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post #65 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

What you say may be true but it will not play movies from the Sony server and probably other new 4k sources.

HDMI 2.0 specs.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/

Jason did some 4k test with his htpc and the jvc displayed them in 4k with the 4k input. Since the 4k blu ray standard is not finalized, we really don't know what will work. If we get unprotected 4k like some get on their htpc, the jvc will display it at 4k60p
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post #66 of 81 Old 01-24-2014, 08:19 PM
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Hopefully we get the full 18Gbps chips in the next projectors
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post #67 of 81 Old 01-27-2014, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Just because its not native 4K, does not mean its doesn't provide the resolution. So, it still provides a 4k image

That's EXACTLY what it means... Just because a 720P projector can accept a 1080P signal does not mean it is a 1080P projector. All of the information above 720P essentially gets "thrown away" as it is downscaled. Same with a 4k signal going down to JVC's e-shift.

E-shift is halfway between 1080P and 4k, since it only doubles the resolution of 1080P as I understand it.
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post #68 of 81 Old 01-27-2014, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RPS13 View Post

That's EXACTLY what it means... Just because a 720P projector can accept a 1080P signal does not mean it is a 1080P projector. All of the information above 720P essentially gets "thrown away" as it is downscaled. Same with a 4k signal going down to JVC's e-shift.

E-shift is halfway between 1080P and 4k, since it only doubles the resolution of 1080P as I understand it.
Not really, this is more similar to wobbulation used by DLP with early 1080p models.

JVC is doubling both horizontal and vertical resolution to generate a full 3840x2160 matrix with e-Shift technology.

http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/tech_desc.jsp?model_id=MDL102123&feature_id=02

I'm not calling this the same as native UHD, but it isn't just a doubling which is going on and it does not throw information away. If you feed this projector 3840x2160 then it utilizes and projects all the pixels.

I would call it a solid step up from what you are describing, but a step down from full UHD.

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post #69 of 81 Old 01-30-2014, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 42Plasmaman View Post

With announcements at CES that 4K TV's and PC monitors available for less then $1000 later this year, I can see 4K projectors hitting less than $3K in 1-2 years easily.

I still can not see 4k projectors being $3K or less. It just doesn't seem possible. 4k blu rays are probably 1.5yrs away, then probably 3-4 years before we even get a reasonable amount to purchase. DLPs are not even on the works and when they start, it will be expensive. So, for everyone hoping for the cheaper DLPs to come out with an under $3K projector is going to be waiting. Even the high end DLPs, which will be first to hit the 4K consumer market, are at least 2 years away. That leaves Sony, JVC, and Epson. Epson has no 4k projector in the works and if they did, they wilk not price it lower or the same as their 1080p model. I'm sure they will want to make money instead of losing money. Sony in 2011 came out with the 1000es for $25K, then in the 500/600es for $15k in 2013. Why would they have one for less than $3k in 2 years? JVC eshift models are $5k+, makes no sense for them to have a native 4k projector in 2 years for less than $3K.

With basically no 4k content, its going to be hard for the projector market to price projectors in the entry level 1080p price range. There is more that goes into a 4k machine than a 2k machine.
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post #70 of 81 Old 01-30-2014, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I still can not see 4k projectors being $3K or less. It just doesn't seem possible. 4k blu rays are probably 1.5yrs away, then probably 3-4 years before we even get a reasonable amount to purchase. DLPs are not even on the works and when they start, it will be expensive. So, for everyone hoping for the cheaper DLPs to come out with an under $3K projector is going to be waiting. Even the high end DLPs, which will be first to hit the 4K consumer market, are at least 2 years away. That leaves Sony, JVC, and Epson. Epson has no 4k projector in the works and if they did, they wilk not price it lower or the same as their 1080p model. I'm sure they will want to make money instead of losing money. Sony in 2011 came out with the 1000es for $25K, then in the 500/600es for $15k in 2013. Why would they have one for less than $3k in 2 years? JVC eshift models are $5k+, makes no sense for them to have a native 4k projector in 2 years for less than $3K.

With basically no 4k content, its going to be hard for the projector market to price projectors in the entry level 1080p price range. There is more that goes into a 4k machine than a 2k machine.
Your arguments mirror, almost word for word, what was said when 1080p projectors first came to market.

You may not believe it, but I fully expect it to come to pass. It follows the course of history with electronics. It's close to the same argument people had with HD DVD vs. Blu-ray and how expensive BD players were when they came out, then a couple of years later had dropped 80%+ in price.

Yes, the price will drop, yes it will happen quickly, yes LCD and DLP chips will come to market, yes they will come out $5,000 or under the first year, and $3,000 and under the second year.

Quote me, I certainly could be wrong, but I don't expect to be. But, we will know in about 18-24 months. No, not next January! But, 18-24 months. A great deal rides on HDMI 2.0 rollout and if Epson and TI will deliver UHD chips by the end of this year.

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post #71 of 81 Old 01-30-2014, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

Your arguments mirror, almost word for word, what was said when 1080p projectors first came to market.

You may not believe it, but I fully expect it to come to pass. It follows the course of history with electronics. It's close to the same argument people had with HD DVD vs. Blu-ray and how expensive BD players were when they came out, then a couple of years later had dropped 80%+ in price.

Yes, the price will drop, yes it will happen quickly, yes LCD and DLP chips will come to market, yes they will come out $5,000 or under the first year, and $3,000 and under the second year.

Quote me, I certainly could be wrong, but I don't expect to be. But, we will know in about 18-24 months. No, not next January! But, 18-24 months. A great deal rides on HDMI 2.0 rollout and if Epson and TI will deliver UHD chips by the end of this year.

We will see. If Sony and JVC are the only projectors that are 4K this year, I think I'm gonna be right. I doubt Song or JVC will bring $3k 4k projectors out anytime soon, so it will be up to cheaper DLPs and Epson. I don't doubt the cheaper DLPs will have a $3K or less 4k projector, I just doubt that TI will have 4k chips ready by that time.
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post #72 of 81 Old 01-30-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

We will see. If Sony and JVC are the only projectors that are 4K this year, I think I'm gonna be right. I doubt Song or JVC will bring $3k 4k projectors out anytime soon, so it will be up to cheaper DLPs and Epson. I don't doubt the cheaper DLPs will have a $3K or less 4k projector, I just doubt that TI will have 4k chips ready by that time.
For all my ragging on you about this. I agree completely that if LCD or DLP doesn't get into the 4K game this year, it will likely be pushed back. I don't think first year DLP/LCD will be under $3K, but I think 2nd year will be.

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post #73 of 81 Old 01-30-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post

For all my ragging on you about this. I agree completely that if LCD or DLP doesn't get into the 4K game this year, it will likely be pushed back. I don't think first year DLP/LCD will be under $3K, but I think 2nd year will be.

I think it might be possible in 3 years if TI makes a consumer chip for 4k. There aren't too many LCD projectors being made, so its going to be hard for the projector market. Panasonic and Mitsubishi has apparently left the consumer market, so I doubt they would come back for something even harder to sell. Hopefully JVC and Sony can in 3 years in 2017
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post #74 of 81 Old 01-31-2014, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by RPS13 View Post

I also think it's interesting all the big panels are 2.33:1 AR. I'm sure some people are going to be totally confused at how they now have black bars on the SIDES of the image while watching 1.78:1 content.

1. People will just stretch the image like they have always done. We will bitch about it...the cycle of life goes on.

2. I think one reason they are going wider is getting these things through a door, around corners, down stairs, etc. Unless you live in an open concept ranch...well, that is different.

3. I think another but more probable reason is that the "height" of a panel is getting difficult to manage on machines. However, going longer might not be as difficult. So they take advantage that there is a lot of SCOPE content out their and let their marketers go nuts with rationalized excuses. tongue.gif

I must be guilty because people say I am guilty because they chose to call me guilty because they refuse to see the truth. Much easier to be part of the mob..
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post #75 of 81 Old 09-17-2014, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by blee0120 

I still can not see 4k projectors being $3K or less. It just doesn't seem possible. 4k blu rays are probably 1.5yrs away, then probably 3-4 years before we even get a reasonable amount to purchase. DLPs are not even on the works and when they start, it will be expensive. So, for everyone hoping for the cheaper DLPs to come out with an under $3K projector is going to be waiting. Even the high end DLPs, which will be first to hit the 4K consumer market, are at least 2 years away. That leaves Sony, JVC, and Epson. Epson has no 4k projector in the works and if they did, they wilk not price it lower or the same as their 1080p model. I'm sure they will want to make money instead of losing money. Sony in 2011 came out with the 1000es for $25K, then in the 500/600es for $15k in 2013. Why would they have one for less than $3k in 2 years? JVC eshift models are $5k+, makes no sense for them to have a native 4k projector in 2 years for less than $3K.

With basically no 4k content, its going to be hard for the projector market to price projectors in the entry level 1080p price range. There is more that goes into a 4k machine than a 2k machine.

Your arguments mirror, almost word for word, what was said when 1080p projectors first came to market.

You may not believe it, but I fully expect it to come to pass. It follows the course of history with electronics. It's close to the same argument people had with HD DVD vs. Blu-ray and how expensive BD players were when they came out, then a couple of years later had dropped 80%+ in price.

Yes, the price will drop, yes it will happen quickly, yes LCD and DLP chips will come to market, yes they will come out $5,000 or under the first year, and $3,000 and under the second year.

Quote me, I certainly could be wrong, but I don't expect to be. But, we will know in about 18-24 months. No, not next January! But, 18-24 months. A great deal rides on HDMI 2.0 rollout and if Epson and TI will deliver UHD chips by the end of this year.
Are you still counting on an under $3,000 4K projector by January 2016? Did you want to push it an other your until January 2017?
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post #76 of 81 Old 09-17-2014, 04:25 PM
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I would say 2018 at best. That is a 4k that has all the specs needed.
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post #77 of 81 Old 09-18-2014, 07:11 AM
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I still think it won't happen in 2018 also
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post #78 of 81 Old 09-18-2014, 09:15 AM
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Blee, before we rant on other predictions, I would point out that you are a bit off, as well. You said that we wouldn't break through the $12k barrier by now, but there is a <$10k 4k projector by Sony now, at least in European markets.

I think that the driver of the market right now is whether Epson perfects a 4k LCOQ chip in the next year or so with decent yields, and if TI is working on a 4k consumer DLP (some said that they are waiting to release one in 2015, others say that that they aren't working on one)

I suspect we'll have a <$5K 4k projector by Jan 2018. Possibly Jan 2017 if both chips mentioned above come through in the next year or so and start a 3-way competition between Epson, Sony and the DLPs. I think Epson, in particular, will drive the competitive landscape down to a lower price level in which they are more comfortable, if they can get a 4k chip soon.

EDIT: I will give you the caveat that you said "Full HDMI 2.0," and I suppose that it can be debated - I don't think that the 300 has full 18GBPS HDMI 2.0 with DHCP 2.2, does it?

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We will lucky if JVC or Sony release a 4K projector with the full hdmi 2.0 for $12,000 late 2014

Last edited by skater2; 09-18-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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post #79 of 81 Old 09-18-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by skater2 View Post
Blee, before we rant on other predictions, I would point out that you are a bit off, as well. You said that we wouldn't break through the $12k barrier by now, but there is a <$10k 4k projector by Sony now, at least in European markets.

I think that the driver of the market right now is whether Epson perfects a 4k LCOQ chip in the next year or so with decent yields, and if TI is working on a 4k consumer DLP (some said that they are waiting to release one in 2015, others say that that they aren't working on one)

I suspect we'll have a <$5K 4k projector by Jan 2018. Possibly Jan 2017 if both chips mentioned above come through in the next year or so and start a 3-way competition between Epson, Sony and the DLPs. I think Epson, in particular, will drive the competitive landscape down to a lower price level in which they are more comfortable, if they can get a 4k chip soon.

EDIT: I will give you the caveat that you said "Full HDMI 2.0," and I suppose that it can be debated - I don't think that the 300 has full 18GBPS HDMI 2.0 with DHCP 2.2, does it?
Oh, you beat me to my response that the 300es is not full hdmi 2.0. However, we don't even have one full hdmi 2.0 projector as to date. I think what I thought is happening. Late 2015 or early 2016 is when the under $10k 4k projectors will start. Sony figured out that there is no point of bringing a cheaper model out with no competition. Plus, the 300es will be extremely hard to sell after knowing the 4k bd will be here in late 2015. It will cost Epson more to make a 4k model and their 4k enhancement is $8000. I'm just guessing but Epson will have the first available 4k laser projector for less than $10k in early 2016. That will leave 2 years to get 4k to under $3000. I doubt it still. My guess will be $5000 in 2018. I would not count on Acer, Vivitek, Benq, Viewsonic, or Optional to bring out high quality machines that are 4K for under $3000. It will be the equavalent of them having a DC4 .95 projector for under $3000 today. They make very inexpensive products that in no way is close to an entry level jvc.

Last edited by blee0120; 09-18-2014 at 04:21 PM.
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post #80 of 81 Old 09-18-2014, 04:31 PM
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Another note is that it cost more to produce a 4k projector. Companies are not going to sell projectors to make a small percentage to none just so people can have a 4k projector. I'm hoping they somehow get them under $3000, I just know it's not realistic anytime soon. With the wider color gamut needed, 4k chips, video processing, lens that resolve 4k resolution, and increased brightness, I don't see projectors being as cheap as many think.
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post #81 of 81 Old 09-18-2014, 09:14 PM
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I will agree that there are some non-Moore's law issues in making a 4k projector that won't be solved as quickly as imaging chip or processing chip price. Optics and QC/alignment of components, especially for 3-chip projectors, will not come down as fast as raw chip prices.
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