Moire issue with my Elite Acoustic Pro screen and my new Optima HD25e - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 01-31-2014, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently replaced my projector with the Optima HD25e and I saw diagonal moire lines. I spoke to a rep at Elite who told me to move my projector back and zoom in the lens. My problem is that I can't move the projector back (which is currently at 14') without needing a larger screen ( I currently have a 120"). The Optima does have a negative zoom option. After using it (-5) and zooming in the lens it fixed the moire effect. My question is that I'm wondering if the negative zoom hurts the image quality. It doesn't seem to be as sharp to me but I may be mistaken. Any thoughts?

Thanks

I've attached two images of the moire effect before I made the adjustments .



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post #2 of 27 Old 01-31-2014, 10:23 AM
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I would say call the manufacturer of the PJ. Might be something wrong with the PJ itself?
I wouldnt have thought to call Elite first in the chain if the new item is the PJ and you are seeing this issue.

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post #3 of 27 Old 01-31-2014, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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I put up a sheet of white paper in this picture and you can see the issue is with the screen...or at least I think.
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post #4 of 27 Old 01-31-2014, 12:37 PM
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in that case, I would agree.
That was my next suggestions was to project onto something else. Wonder what could cause a screen to just do that out of nowhere. . . . . .interesting. . .

My first and only contact with Elite was not a good one. I am not a fan of their support already for even an easy question. Curious how this one pans out.

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post #5 of 27 Old 02-03-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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After moving my projector forward, backward, zooming in, zooming out, I still can't get rid of the moire issue. I spoke to Elite who explain that the newer projectors are too bright and the resolution is too great for their AP2 acoustic permeable screen. They offered me their matte white material (which I don't need) and then a credit. Not sure what my next move should be. Is there another acoustic permeable screen that might work? Should I return the projector for another one? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
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post #6 of 27 Old 02-14-2014, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Am I the only one with this problem? Does anyone beside me have an acoustic pro screen? I now have moved the projector again and I still see the issue. Any thoughts? Should I return the projector?

Thanks
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post #7 of 27 Old 02-14-2014, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdepace View Post

Am I the only one with this problem? Does anyone beside me have an acoustic pro screen? I now have moved the projector again and I still see the issue. Any thoughts? Should I return the projector?

Thanks

Your issue isnt the projector, any 1080P resolution projector will have the same problem with that screen.
There are other AT screen material options that may have less of a moire pattern but from my research only the 4K rated screens remove it completely.
Another option is to consider finding a manufacturer that uses spandex as it's weave is so fine you wont get moire, or buy a frame and fit it with your own spandex, or go complete DIY.

Check out the DIY section as there are plenty of examples there with spandex. (including my own 120" with a bright W1080ST) The main disadvantage with spandex is the screen gain is generally between .8 and .9 which doesnt make them suitable for rooms without controlled light.
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post #8 of 27 Old 02-15-2014, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatboy69 View Post

The main disadvantage with spandex is the screen gain is generally between .8 and .9 which doesnt make them suitable for rooms without controlled light.
On the other hand, the negative gain is a plus with smaller screens (<120 inches diag) where there is a surplus of available lumens, as it will improve black levels .
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post #9 of 27 Old 02-15-2014, 02:29 PM
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I bought my screen research 115'' acoustic screen when we built the house 8+yrs ago... was told it's a killer... had no idea of the meaning of gain (its .95), was told no moire with this screen (what the heck is moire anyway??)... it cost thousands of $$$, so not so keen to trash it and buy anew....
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post #10 of 27 Old 02-15-2014, 03:49 PM
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Your previous PJ apparently didn't exhibit this. What PJ was that?
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post #11 of 27 Old 02-15-2014, 04:47 PM
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[quote name="PrimeTime" url="/t/1515202/moire-issue-with-my-elite-acoustic-pro-screen-and-my-new-optima
-hd25e#post_24362907"]Your previous PJ apparently didn't exhibit this. What PJ was that?[/quote]

infocus 7205... still only has under 1000hrs on the orig bulb from 8+yrs ago.... bought a mitsui 7900... will pick up n install it, if it evers stops snowing...
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post #12 of 27 Old 02-15-2014, 05:20 PM
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The 7205 is only 720p so the pixel structure is larger and doesn't interact with the screen weave.
Unfortunately any 1080p projector will have moire with that screen.
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post #13 of 27 Old 02-16-2014, 07:35 AM
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It's not entirely predictable how visible Moire will be. Seymour rotates his screen grid slightly to try and minimize this.

The finer pixel structures of 1080 may indeed interact more visibly. And that extends to the DLP vs. LCD issues. Since the Bayer layout of the LCD has three times as many pixels, it will be different than the Foveon-type operation (colors in the same space) of a DLP. It will probably vary with the LCD depending on the color convergence.
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post #14 of 27 Old 02-18-2014, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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"Your previous PJ apparently didn't exhibit this. What PJ was that?"

Infocus 76
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post #15 of 27 Old 02-18-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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" There are other AT screen material options that may have less of a moire pattern but from my research only the 4K rated screens remove it completely."

Can you recommend a 4K screen that is acoustically transparent, is not fixed or can raise/lower, and hopefully sub $800?

"Another option is to consider finding a manufacturer that uses spandex as it's weave is so fine you wont get moire, or buy a frame and fit it with your own spandex, or go complete DIY."

Will this be able to raise/ lower?

I'm beginning to think that I should just move my speakers!

Thanks for your help!
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post #16 of 27 Old 02-18-2014, 01:26 PM
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I just purchased and installed a 120" EluneVision Reference Studio AudioWeave 4K tab tensioned motorized screen. It is paired with a BenQ 1070. I have not seen any moire effect with it. Unfortunately, they are around $2K. This is my first screen and projector but to me, it looks great. It was more than I wanted to spend but I decided to get something that would at least be future proof for the next round of 4K technology.
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post #17 of 27 Old 05-10-2014, 12:20 PM
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I just purchased and installed an Optoma HD25e and Elite Sable 100" 1080 AT2 screen as well, and I think I got the tension a little skewed while snapping all of those tabs into the frame. Obvious moire pattern in several areas, with odd wavy ones running all over the picture. I've just pulled it apart and re-installed the screen in the frame with a slightly different sequence of tabs. Hopefully this will lessen the moire effect the screen displayed the first time. I'm not convinced it will eliminate it tho. No before pictures to share, but I'll report back as soon as I can get it back on the wall and lit up.

M.

Update: No luck, but I didn't have high expectations. The pattern is still there, only rearranged. The lines of tension between all of the mounting tabs seems to dictate how wild the pattern appears. This screen has a vertical tensioning bar/brace as well. I'm going to try removing that to see if releasing some of that additional tension helps at all... But, as mentioned before, the weave seems just a bit too coarse for 1080p content. Even though that is what it is marketed for...

And since this is turning into a screen problem, I'm going to move over to the screen sub forum.
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post #18 of 27 Old 05-11-2014, 10:46 PM
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Hi Mherington - I just wanted to say I see it also - I got mine assembled last night and wondered if it was my eyes or the pixels. However, as I posted elsewhere, I paid less than $600 delivered for a 176" cinemascope AT screen. For the price I think I can live with it. The 4K material I think is several thousand all by itself with no frame.

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #19 of 27 Old 05-12-2014, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatboy69 View Post

The 7205 is only 720p so the pixel structure is larger and doesn't interact with the screen weave.
Unfortunately any 1080p projector will have moire with that screen.

finally got my mits 7900 up n running... no moire... (thanks for pic ,showing what it is)...
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post #20 of 27 Old 05-12-2014, 08:30 PM
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Just a comment from my DIY acoustically transparent adventure but have you tried rotating the material in the frame? I found with my material that if I rotated it about 20 degrees from vertical that the moire went away. This does require that you have enough excess material to still be able to tension it properly.

The goal is to try and get the weave to not line up so well with the pixel structure. You can test this with loose hanging material to see if it will be enough to correct it but not being tensioned it will typically take more rotation to correct but will show if it is even possible with this material.

My stuff is old, but it still works well. Apparently AVS finds it to old to keep in their database but I'm still happy with it.
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post #21 of 27 Old 05-13-2014, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Baenwort View Post

Just a comment from my DIY acoustically transparent adventure but have you tried rotating the material in the frame? I found with my material that if I rotated it about 20 degrees from vertical that the moire went away. This does require that you have enough excess material to still be able to tension it properly.

The goal is to try and get the weave to not line up so well with the pixel structure. You can test this with loose hanging material to see if it will be enough to correct it but not being tensioned it will typically take more rotation to correct but will show if it is even possible with this material.

As it turns out, the 1080p2 material is already set on a 20deg bias from the factory. And the way this screen is constructed, further rotating the material is impossible. There are pockets sewn along each edge that tension rods slip into, and these rods lay in small grooves along the back of the extruded aluminum frame. Many plastic clips then secure the rods in the grooves, making a tight, stable screen.

I'm taking an idea from the DIY side tho... I'm going to pick up some Milliskin spandex fabric and some flexible window-screen spline. If the spline is thick enough to capture the spandex in that groove in the frame, I'll have a simple and cheap drop-in replacement screen in no time.

I'll report back as soon as I have the fabric. If it doesn't work, I'll just build a frame and use the ScreenTight system to secure the fabric to the frame. And then I'll have to figure out how to send the Elite screen and frame back (the box has been recycled. Oops).
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post #22 of 27 Old 05-13-2014, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post

Hi Mherington - I just wanted to say I see it also - I got mine assembled last night and wondered if it was my eyes or the pixels. However, as I posted elsewhere, I paid less than $600 delivered for a 176" cinemascope AT screen. For the price I think I can live with it. The 4K material I think is several thousand all by itself with no frame.

Can't argue on that price. I can almost live with it myself, but the pattern is pretty strong on the 100" screen I have. I suspect it's a combination of projected pixel size and weave pattern size. They just happen to mesh badly at certain screen sizes and throw distance. I'm sure there's some simple math behind it, but I don't have the extra cycles anymore (14 month old ruling the house wink.gif.

M.
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-21-2014, 05:14 PM
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A quick update, and one that probably still belongs over in the screen forum (and maybe even the DIY section but...), I've contacted Elite regarding the problem and sent in a warranty claim ticket. Until they decide what to do about the issue, I'm exploring installing a makeshift spandex screen in the Elite frame. And, guess what? It works! The tension rods from the original screen just manage to hold the two layers of spandex. The first attempt ended with several bad wrinkles in the fabric, but it should improve now that I understand the technique a little better. It isn't as slick of an installation as the factory screen (which still looks very good, albeit with a obvious moire pattern). I've taken it down for now, or at least until Elite gets back to me about the screen issue.

I'll go with whatever recommendation they come up with, or if all else fails, build a DIY frame for the spandex. The Optoma HD25e seems to be a bargain of a projector, I'm really impressed with the picture quality (caveat emptor; I have no prior experience with digital projectors). It's been fun so far.

M.
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post #24 of 27 Old 07-08-2014, 06:19 PM
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Cheap 4K screen

Hi Guys,

Not sure if you are still interested, I am currently going down the DIY path myself. There is only a small handfull of screen suppliers in OZ, and they all want the $$$$$.

Well I received a sample of some AT material, once is claimed as HD, the other is sold as 4K. the noticable difference between the 2 is thr hole size and weave tightness. the 4K does look about 1/5th smaller in the wevae pattern.

We had just finished building and had our blinds installed a few weeks ago, they are called sheerview so the give privacy but let light through. we chose an openess of 5%. They are made from 30% polyester,70% PVC. Something caught my eye, it looked identical to the 4K material sent to me (the weave was the same size as was the holes between the weave) the colour was extremely close too. Started to get a little excited at the possibility. I went back to the store and requested a sample of 3%, 5%, and 10% in white.

I will be wrapoing the samples around my speakers this weekend and try and test by ear if the sound is different from each.
In terms of picture, i have 2 rows, 12ft and 15ft at 12ft i could not tell the difference in picture quality between the roller blind at 5% and the 4K material.

Here is the kicker, the material comes on a 3M wide roll at $45 per meter.

Im happy to post some pics if you guys are interested?

Cheers
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post #25 of 27 Old 07-09-2014, 08:34 PM
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Hi Guys,

Not sure if you are still interested, I am currently going down the DIY path myself. There is only a small handfull of screen suppliers in OZ, and they all want the $$$$$.

Well I received a sample of some AT material, once is claimed as HD, the other is sold as 4K. the noticable difference between the 2 is thr hole size and weave tightness. the 4K does look about 1/5th smaller in the wevae pattern.

We had just finished building and had our blinds installed a few weeks ago, they are called sheerview so the give privacy but let light through. we chose an openess of 5%. They are made from 30% polyester,70% PVC. Something caught my eye, it looked identical to the 4K material sent to me (the weave was the same size as was the holes between the weave) the colour was extremely close too. Started to get a little excited at the possibility. I went back to the store and requested a sample of 3%, 5%, and 10% in white.

I will be wrapoing the samples around my speakers this weekend and try and test by ear if the sound is different from each.
In terms of picture, i have 2 rows, 12ft and 15ft at 12ft i could not tell the difference in picture quality between the roller blind at 5% and the 4K material.

Here is the kicker, the material comes on a 3M wide roll at $45 per meter.

Im happy to post some pics if you guys are interested?

Cheers
Please do. This is exactly how SMX started. A guy got fed up with the price everyone was asking and noticed the fabric on a sun umbrella canopy and started testing.

If you find a good material and produce good test data it would be very helpful to the DIY community.

My stuff is old, but it still works well. Apparently AVS finds it to old to keep in their database but I'm still happy with it.
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post #26 of 27 Old 07-09-2014, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baenwort View Post
Please do. This is exactly how SMX started. A guy got fed up with the price everyone was asking and noticed the fabric on a sun umbrella canopy and started testing.

If you find a good material and produce good test data it would be very helpful to the DIY community.
Baenwort,

Any suggestions for a newbie such as myself with next to NO experience in picture/sound testing (bar the HD Basics bluray i purchased), to provide you with feedback? cheap testing tools?

I have spent a lot of time today contacting various Australian blind manufacturers for samples, so hopefully by next week I will have enough products to compare.
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post #27 of 27 Old 07-14-2014, 09:35 AM
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The DIY sub forum would likely be a better place to get testing recommendations now adays. I don't know the products available any longer as once I got mine built I avoided that area for fear of contracting the upgrade bug.

My stuff is old, but it still works well. Apparently AVS finds it to old to keep in their database but I'm still happy with it.
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