BenQ w1080st vs Epson 8350 - Subjective Review - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 03-08-2014, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Saw the BenQ w1080st for under $900 on Amazon and pulled the trigger. I had been coming from a Epson 8350 which I had been happy with for a while, but I never was a big fan of LCD projectors and I sit very close to my screen (1.1 SW) so I wanted to go 1080p DLP for my next projector. I also wanted to go short throw so I could use my Xbox One and the kinect without my shadow always getting in the way. I didn't expect a dramatic increase in performance since they are in the same class, but was a little disappointed with the brightness of the BenQ w1080st considering my Epson has ~1250 hours on the bulb it was only slightly less bright than the w1080st. Although, a major factor could be that I'm using a High Power 2.4 screen, which from my understanding isn't the best idea with a short throw projector. My Epson is already boxed up to ship to another forum member who purchased it, so sorry for no side by side pictures, but I can provide a subjective review for anyone interested. I ranked the two projectors in categories that were important to me with the most important starting at the top. I use the projector in a living room with ambient light.


Brightness
I think this is a wash, if I was comparing my Epson with 0 hours vs my Benq with 0 hours I bet the Epson would have been slightly brighter. Right now thought the Benq has an edge. I think this is also consistent with other reviews online.

SDE
I was hoping to see a bigger difference between the two, but only a slight edge to the Benq. My vision with contacts is 20/20 to give a reference.

Placement
For using a Kinect, the BenQ has big advantage, but the Epson is soooo easy to place with lens shift. I had to spend a lot of time trying to find a table that was the right height and making small adjustments to the feet to get the image to display within my screen near perfectly. I'm sure my cats will be respectful of how much time I spent placing it and not knock into the table rolleyes.gif.

Black level
I do think the Benq has better depth than the Epson, in addition to deeper blacks...shadow detail for me was a wash. During the day this isn't a huge issue for me because of the ambient light pretty much makes any contrast ratio or black level meaningless.

Sharpness
The w1080st was noticable sharper, almost looks too artificially sharp....less of a film look than the Epson

Colors
It's hard to describe why colors have always bothered me a little with LCD projectors...I've always preferred the colors of DLPs of course they never could be placed easily. But but I also thought this was more of a wash for me than I was hoping between the two projectors.

Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about. It's too bad there aren't really that many other options for 1080p short throw DLP PJs under 2k. I'd be willing to pay a little more for something brighter. I bought it through Amazon, so I could always trade it for another projector on Amazon if after a week or two I'm not happy...but not really sure what other choices I'd have for my preferences.

Chris
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post #2 of 10 Old 03-12-2014, 09:56 AM
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Quote:Originally Posted by freychris42424 

Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about.


Brightness is definately part of the reason - but here's the other reason: the color wheel speed (fast as the claimed 6x sounds) isn't constant across framerates (just like with the W1070): see here.

To get full wheel speed (and hence minimize rainbows), you need to be running at 50Hz; at which you get a very-fast 300Hz Effective Wheel Spin-Rate.
60Hz is a bit worse (at a 240Hz Effective Spin-Rate); and 24Hz is actually pretty-much average (at just a 192Hz Effective Spin-Rate).

For this reason I run mine at 50Hz consistently and see no rainbows (I'm very sensitive).

The real question is why on earth BenQ has decided not to keep a roughly-the-same color wheel spin-rate throughout framerates.

(Begin Lots Of Math)

We know it's a double-RGB wheel (RGBRGB) so one physical revolution is an effective 2x. We also know that a minimum of one full physical revolution is required per input frame; which means our increments are going to be 2x. So perhaps that would sort-of explain the drop from 50Hz to 60Hz - so:
50Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 300Hz Effective (ie 150Hz Physical Spin-Rate)
Whereas:
60Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 'Hypothetical' 360Hz Effective (ie 180Hz 'Hypothetical' Physical Spin-Rate)

...perhaps 180hz (which is 10800 revolutions per minute) is beyond the motor's capability or hurts color fidelity or produces too much noise or etc etc etc; so the next lower color wheel multiplier is 2 Revolutions (instead of 3); giving us:
60Hz Input Framerate x 2 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 240Hz Effective (ie 120Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which was found to be the case.

Fine; maybe that explains the drop from 50Hz input framerate to 60Hz. Sort-of.
But then why did BenQ decide to run 24Hz input signals (the default for most Bluray players) at just 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate)?

At 24Hz, the projector does this:

24Hz Input Framerate x 4 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate).

That's a far cry from the 300Hz Effective that it does at 50Hz.

They could've simply used a multiplier of 6 Revolutions Per Input-Frame to nearly-match RBE performance of 50Hz - ie:
24Hz Input Framerate x 6 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 288Hz Effective (ie 144Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which is just marginally lower than the Effective 300Hz we get with a 50Hz input signal; and would've been fast enough to eradicate most rainbows.
But instead they didn't: and therefore at the most common output frame-rate of HD sources (24hz), they've provided the slowest wheel spin-speed. It boggles my mind.

(End Lots Of Math)


Still, I absolutely love my W1070 and wouldn't swap it for anything else (and 192Hz effective is still considered very respectable); but I continue to find this decision to be rather silly.

TL;DR: In terms of your Xbox One, you're probably getting 60Hz out of it, right? Does it offer anywhere to drop to 50Hz? If so, try dropping it and you should see a noticeable improvement in terms of rainbows
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Last edited by kreeturez; 10-13-2014 at 05:58 PM.
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post #3 of 10 Old 03-13-2014, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the info! I'll look into the settings to see if there is something that can drop it down to 50.

Chris
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post #4 of 10 Unread 12-13-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kreeturez View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by freychris42424

Something else that was odd for me is that I do see rainbows on the BenQ, although for most media they are not super distracting. I used to own an X1 a looong time ago, about 10 years ago, and never saw them with a 2x color wheel. It probably has to do with the fact that Benq is brigher than the X1 but that was something else I was a little disappointed about.


Brightness is definately part of the reason - but here's the other reason: the color wheel speed (fast as the claimed 6x sounds) isn't constant across framerates (just like with the W1070): see here.

To get full wheel speed (and hence minimize rainbows), you need to be running at 50Hz; at which you get a very-fast 300Hz Effective Wheel Spin-Rate.
60Hz is a bit worse (at a 240Hz Effective Spin-Rate); and 24Hz is actually pretty-much average (at just a 192Hz Effective Spin-Rate).

For this reason I run mine at 50Hz consistently and see no rainbows (I'm very sensitive).

The real question is why on earth BenQ has decided not to keep a roughly-the-same color wheel spin-rate throughout framerates.

(Begin Lots Of Math)

We know it's a double-RGB wheel (RGBRGB) so one physical revolution is an effective 2x. We also know that a minimum of one full physical revolution is required per input frame; which means our increments are going to be 2x. So perhaps that would sort-of explain the drop from 50Hz to 60Hz - so:
50Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 300Hz Effective (ie 150Hz Physical Spin-Rate)
Whereas:
60Hz Input Framerate x 3 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 'Hypothetical' 360Hz Effective (ie 180Hz 'Hypothetical' Physical Spin-Rate)

...perhaps 180hz (which is 10800 revolutions per minute) is beyond the motor's capability or hurts color fidelity or produces too much noise or etc etc etc; so the next lower color wheel multiplier is 2 Revolutions (instead of 3); giving us:
60Hz Input Framerate x 2 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 240Hz Effective (ie 120Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which was found to be the case.

Fine; maybe that explains the drop from 50Hz input framerate to 60Hz. Sort-of.
But then why did BenQ decide to run 24Hz input signals (the default for most Bluray players) at just 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate)?

At 24Hz, the projector does this:

24Hz Input Framerate x 4 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 192Hz Effective (ie 96Hz Physical Spin-Rate).

That's a far cry from the 300Hz Effective that it does at 50Hz.

They could've simply used a multiplier of 6 Revolutions Per Input-Frame to nearly-match RBE performance of 50Hz - ie:
24Hz Input Framerate x 6 Revolutions x 2 Effective = 288Hz Effective (ie 144Hz Physical Spin-Rate).
...which is just marginally lower than the Effective 300Hz we get with a 50Hz input signal; and would've been fast enough to eradicate most rainbows.
But instead they didn't: and therefore at the most common output frame-rate of HD sources (24hz), they've provided the slowest wheel spin-speed. It boggles my mind.

(End Lots Of Math)


Still, I absolutely love my W1070 and wouldn't swap it for anything else (and 192Hz effective is still considered very respectable); but I continue to find this decision to be rather silly.

TL;DR: In terms of your Xbox One, you're probably getting 60Hz out of it, right? Does it offer anywhere to drop to 50Hz? If so, try dropping it and you should see a noticeable improvement in terms of rainbows
If I'm running everything including blue-rays from my PC to the 1070 - is there a way to get the PC to output to 50hz even for the blue ray playback? I DID read the thread but I'm afraid math is not my strong suit
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post #5 of 10 Unread 12-13-2014, 12:11 PM
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Usually the same screen where you can select resolution will also have refresh options. Right-click the desktop and either enter your graphic options or screen properties. It's usually in the advanced options tab if nothing else.
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Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #6 of 10 Unread 12-13-2014, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Usually the same screen where you can select resolution will also have refresh options. Right-click the desktop and either enter your graphic options or screen properties. It's usually in the advanced options tab if nothing else.
So for gaming I can force a 50hz refresh - fair enough, how would this apply to blue rays running from my media center? IE. - Blue rays encoded at 24fps- and I'm probably confusing things here - but can I force a 50hz refresh rate and run a blue ray recorded at 24hz just fine - or will it destroy the cinema effect of the movie / introduce judder?
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post #7 of 10 Unread 12-13-2014, 09:20 PM
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I think it'll work out alright, but I'd wait for someone who knows for sure to chime in because I've heard some of the media-players can force 24Hz playback which would be weird considering the monitor is set for something else and isn't always necessary even compatible with 24Hz play..so I doubt it forces anything back. Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use.

Simple <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room, build in a day, takedown in an hour.
Easy $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
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post #8 of 10 Unread 12-13-2014, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
I think it'll work out alright, but I'd wait for someone who knows for sure to chime in because I've heard some of the media-players can force 24Hz playback which would be weird considering the monitor is set for something else and isn't always necessary even compatible with 24Hz play..so I doubt it forces anything back. Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use.
Good to know - Thanks!
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post #9 of 10 Unread Today, 06:36 AM
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Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use. [IMG]http://******/DXcMW[/IMG]
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post #10 of 10 Unread Today, 06:38 AM
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Also I've not noticed judder on any of the times I've forced DLPs to refresh at 50-60Hz and the Benq is more expensive than what I usually use
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