4K Projectors - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By Thrillho
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Movie78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Post 4K Projectors

Why isn't there any 4k projectors under $1000

I see TV manufacturing companies like Seiki;Hisense;TCL etc making 4K TV under $1000.

{Walmart is selling the Seiki 65" 4K for $1000.}

Last edited by Movie78; 06-17-2014 at 08:34 AM.
Movie78 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 07:44 AM
Senior Member
 
Thrillho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Halifax,NS
Posts: 358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Why isn't there any 300hp electric cars out for less than $15,000?
The market just isn't to that point yet. These cheap 4k TV's are cheap junk that sacrifice all other qualities to hit that magical 4k spec.
It's much harder to make a tiny LCD panel at 4k than a 65" due to process and pixel density so there isn't going to be a cheap LCD 4k unit, TI hasn't released a 4k DLP chip so there aren't any 4k DLP projectors, let alone cheap ones and LCoS isn't typically found in knock off grade projectors.
Give it a few years and we may see some 4k units in the $2000 range but I'd say we're still quite a ways from a sub $1000 model. Besides with resolution being nowhere near the most important part of a good image, a cheap 4k unit would probably look nowhere near as good as a cheap 1080p model.
krips likes this.

Last edited by Thrillho; 06-17-2014 at 08:25 AM.
Thrillho is offline  
post #3 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Movie78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrillho View Post
Why isn't there any 300hp electric cars out for less than $15,000?
The market just isn't too that point yet. These cheap 4k TV's are cheap junk that sacrifice all other qualities to hit that magical 4k spec.
It's much harder to make a tiny LCD panel at 4k than a 65" due to process and pixel density so there isn't going to be a cheap LCD 4k unit, TI hasn't released a 4k DLP chip so there aren't any 4k DLP projectors, let alone cheap ones and LCoS isn't typically found in knock off grade projectors.
Give it a few years and we may see some 4k units in the $2000 range but I'd say we're still quite a ways from a sub $1000 model. Besides with resolution being nowhere near the most important part of a good image, a cheap 4k unit would probably look nowhere near as good as a cheap 1080p model.
I think there is already 4K DLP Chip or i could be wrong
http://www.dlp.com/cinema/dlp-enhanced-4k/
http://www.projectorcentral.com/news_story_1486.htm
Movie78 is offline  
post #4 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 08:21 AM
Senior Member
 
Thrillho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Halifax,NS
Posts: 358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
Sorry, I should have qualified that with "consumer grade". The currently produced chips are found in projectors used in commercial movie theaters and run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Thrillho is offline  
post #5 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 08:27 AM
Member
 
CARTmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrillho View Post
Sorry, I should have qualified that with "consumer grade". The currently produced chips are found in projectors used in commercial movie theaters and run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And do you think that TI could create one of those for home theaters projectors any time soon?
CARTmen is offline  
post #6 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 08:40 AM
Senior Member
 
Thrillho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Halifax,NS
Posts: 358
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARTmen View Post
And do you think that TI could create one of those for home theaters projectors any time soon?
I'm sure they absolutely could. Would they is another question. I would suspect they have their reasons for not having one out yet. Maybe they don't feel the market is ready for it right now, maybe they're on the verge of a breakthrough and they're holding 4k back until they can come to market with a LCoS killer.
I'd honestly prefer TI did some work on dual-chip 1080p setups for the huge contrast gains they can provide before getting stuck in the pixel race.
Thrillho is offline  
post #7 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 09:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Why are there 4K TVs when there isn't 4K content? Do the TVs accept all standard HDMI 2.0 resolutions that are specified? Are they using older HDMI 1.4 chipsets in them? How do they handle 4K content?

Projectors aren't available under $10,000 at this point, so asking about $1,000 is just silly.

Actually, we are already seeing a number of issues with focus uniformity and quality control issues with the cheap 1080p projectors out there under $1,000... even under $3,000.

The optics required to get a really sharp UHD image from a projector should cost over $1,000 for just the lens. Let alone the HDMI 2.0 compliance these projectors should have, and the big step forward it will be to deliver a UHD chip for DLP, LCoS, and LCD at affordable prices, with quality that is superior to what the current 1080p chipsets are delivering.

Instead of asking when we will see $1,000, maybe you should be asking when we will see the release of consumer grade DLP and LCD chips, and when we will see the $3,000 price point be broken.

Oh, and those threads are already in the forum waiting for your response.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #8 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 09:44 AM
Member
 
CARTmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
Why are there 4K TVs when there isn't 4K content? Do the TVs accept all standard HDMI 2.0 resolutions that are specified? Are they using older HDMI 1.4 chipsets in them? How do they handle 4K content?

Projectors aren't available under $10,000 at this point, so asking about $1,000 is just silly.

Actually, we are already seeing a number of issues with focus uniformity and quality control issues with the cheap 1080p projectors out there under $1,000... even under $3,000.

The optics required to get a really sharp UHD image from a projector should cost over $1,000 for just the lens. Let alone the HDMI 2.0 compliance these projectors should have, and the big step forward it will be to deliver a UHD chip for DLP, LCoS, and LCD at affordable prices, with quality that is superior to what the current 1080p chipsets are delivering.

Instead of asking when we will see $1,000, maybe you should be asking when we will see the release of consumer grade DLP and LCD chips, and when we will see the $3,000 price point be broken.

Oh, and those threads are already in the forum waiting for your response.
I read somewhere (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you could make DLPs cheaper, but you couldn't make better lenses cheaper. So my question is, if you will need better lenses every time you increase the projection quality (1080p to 4k, 4k to 8k, etc.) the projector prices are going to increase to a point where a giant TV is a better option, right?
CARTmen is offline  
post #9 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 11:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARTmen View Post
I read somewhere (and correct me if I'm wrong) that you could make DLPs cheaper, but you couldn't make better lenses cheaper. So my question is, if you will need better lenses every time you increase the projection quality (1080p to 4k, 4k to 8k, etc.) the projector prices are going to increase to a point where a giant TV is a better option, right?
It's more about quality control than anything else. If you have less complex lenses of high quality, then you can deliver a great image without a huge jump in cost.

None of the projection technologies has any inherent jump in cost that is extreme. That is, new chips, new processing, etc. but the lamps stay the same, the old processing gets replaced with the new processing, the old chips get replaced with the new chips. These costs do add to the price, but not because there is more 'material' involved, but because there was R&D time that must be paid for. The design and development of brand new projectors has a cost associated with it that most directly impacts the early adopters.

At the end of all of this, I expect sub $3,000 UHD projectors within 2 years of the release of DLP chips. Maybe even in that first year. Then, pricing will fall. 1080p took several years to drop below $1,000, but still did happen, and now is common.

Will there be a point when a giant TV is a better option?

Well, there are already times when giant TVs are better options. Family rooms, rooms with uncontrolled light, wanting a great image with lights on, etc. But, it's not like manufacturers are lining up to replace my 161" setup for under $2,000. They are still in the $500,000 range on the Panasonic 150" display. Not exactly the 'better option'.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #10 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 01:24 PM
Member
 
CARTmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Well $500.000 isn't so much. I'm sure that after several years without eating I could afford one.

So maybe in 4 to 5 years we can have some good 4k projectors for low prices?

I have another doubt. At this point is the DLP technology the better quality/price technology for projectors? There aren't new kinds of technology that we don't see today but can be used to the future projectors to increase image quality and decrease prices?
In TV's we are always seeing the technology changing (plasma, LCD, LED, and OLED) but in projectors it doesn't seems to change.
CARTmen is offline  
post #11 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 05:53 PM
Advanced Member
 
CinemaAndy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 552
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 77
I never see a 4K projector of any form, shape or fashion under $1,000.00 for the foreseeable future.
CinemaAndy is offline  
post #12 of 27 Old 06-17-2014, 07:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARTmen View Post
Well $500.000 isn't so much. I'm sure that after several years without eating I could afford one.

So maybe in 4 to 5 years we can have some good 4k projectors for low prices?

I have another doubt. At this point is the DLP technology the better quality/price technology for projectors? There aren't new kinds of technology that we don't see today but can be used to the future projectors to increase image quality and decrease prices?
In TV's we are always seeing the technology changing (plasma, LCD, LED, and OLED) but in projectors it doesn't seems to change.
Projectors: CRT, passive monochrome LCD, color passive LCD, LCD, early DLP, LCoS.

DLP is the fastest technology on the market compared to all others. It's faster than plasma, OLED, and LCD (by far), or LCoS.

Plasma is the best flat panel technology on the market, with the Pioneer Elite displays from years ago still being a gold standard. So, as flat panel technologies progress, they haven't actually done much to improve. They just get cheaper. Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper - but not better. Eventually OLED, when it actually comes to pass in it's best format, may best the 'best', but it's not advancements as they should be.

So, for the foreseeable future, DLP, LCoS, and LCD technologies will be competing for projectors. Three chip DLP is considered the gold-standard at this time for front projection. Kinda pricey on those suckers.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #13 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 05:51 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 0
you are right,i agree with you,They just get cheaper. Cheaper, cheaper, cheaper - but not better. Eventually OLED, when it actually comes to pass in it's best format, may best the 'best',[IMG]http://*******/XfuKgc[/IMG] but it's not advancements as they should be.thanks
jianworkszhs is offline  
post #14 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 08:15 AM
Member
 
CARTmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 18
If we get to the point of having printable OLED, with the size we want, that's the end of projectors.
CARTmen is offline  
post #15 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 10:27 AM
Member
 
CARTmen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 18
So for what I read, there isn't going to be launched any 4k DLP until 2015.

"First, a deal between Texas Instruments and commercial DLP cinema brands means no home theatre 4K DLP products can launch until 2015"

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news...s-review/17392

Last edited by CARTmen; 06-19-2014 at 10:30 AM.
CARTmen is offline  
post #16 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 10:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ron Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Florida and West Virginia, USA
Posts: 5,964
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARTmen View Post
So for what I read, there isn't going to be launched any 4k DLP until 2015.

"First, a deal between Texas Instruments and commercial DLP cinema brands means no home theatre 4K DLP products can launch until 2015"

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/news...s-review/17392

Digital Projection International (DP or DPI for short) has already announced a 3-chip DLP 4K business projector (introduced this week at Infocomm). However this is a mega expensive business/commercial model with a 10,000 lumen laser light engine. I heard from two sources at Infocomm a year ago that TI was expected to begin shipping a new, smaller, more consumer oriented 4K DMD chip in mid-2014 in sample quantities then full production in 2015. However, it's not clear if these new 4K DMD chips will be intended only for 3-chip projectors or if there will also be a version of the 4K DMDs intended for use in consumer single-chip projectors. Even if single chip 4K DLP projectors are available within the next year or two these may be $20K models along the lines of what DP, Runco, and Sim2 offer with 1080p models that currently sell in the $15K and up price range. I think what most consumers are looking for are relatively low cost single chip DLP models from budget brands such as Optoma and BenQ, but it may be a while before that is likely to happen.

Ron Jones
Blog + Reviews + Articles: projectorreviews.com
Ron Jones is offline  
post #17 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Movie78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 217
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 15
So when come to projector DLP are better than LCD?

They LCD 4K projectors selling $4000 and up...
Movie78 is offline  
post #18 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 02:28 PM
Member
 
whitrzac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Movie78 View Post
So when come to projector DLP are better than LCD?

They LCD 4K projectors selling $4000 and up...
The only 4k ones I see are using shift to get 4k out of 1080p lcds....
whitrzac is offline  
post #19 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 03:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Sony has a 4K projector in the $10,000 range that is native 4K. But, it isn't using a HDMI 2.0 chipset.

That's going to go hand in hand with 4K. The HDMI 2.0 chipsets aren't readily available to manufacturers, and processing isn't perfected for next to nothing the way it is with 1080p.

There are advantages and disadvantages to all three major technologies including LCD, LCoS, and DLP, that's really a different discussion, but right now DLP is the 'budget king' with their projectors, most notably the BenQ W1070. But, that's not 4K, and there isn't 4K.

To my knowledge, I don't know about a 4K LCD out there either. JVC has their e-shift technology, or whatever, using LCoS, that looks really good. But, it's not HDMI 2.0 and it's not true 4K, but they are delivering the lens, the processing, and everything else for under $5,000 right now. All they really need is a native 4K chip and updated processing to HDMI 2.0 specifications.

I had not heard that DLP had an agreement with studios. That really doesn't surprise me in the least. I still expect that once DLP seriously releases the UHD chips we will see sub $3,000 very quickly. If Epson were really smart, then there would be a 4K LCD delivery this year with HDMI 2.0.

Epson 4K40? Works for me!

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #20 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 07:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,271
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 335 Post(s)
Liked: 186
LCD 4K is going to have a tough time I suspect. Those panels are tiny and the inter-pixel gaps are likely as small as they can get them (in the higher end models). Those gaps won't magically be able to shrink simply because they add more pixels to the panel, and the panels can't be made significantly bigger and still fit the design and housing..This means the fill-ratio of 4K LCD is either going to be terrible, or something is going to have to change/improve.
Ftoast is online now  
post #21 of 27 Old 06-19-2014, 07:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
LCD 4K is going to have a tough time I suspect. Those panels are tiny and the inter-pixel gaps are likely as small as they can get them (in the higher end models). Those gaps won't magically be able to shrink simply because they add more pixels to the panel, and the panels can't be made significantly bigger and still fit the design and housing..This means the fill-ratio of 4K LCD is either going to be terrible, or something is going to have to change/improve.
I don't know on that. LCD technology has come a long way, but really hasn't seen huge improvements in recent years, in much the same way DLP hasn't. But, the push for 4K has got to have them trying to figure out 4K solutions right now. Epson has been sharp on this and has been sharp on getting their tech out there and advancing it in ways to take on the technologies which are considered better. I mean, between $2,000 and $3,000 the Epson UB series has really been leading the market for years with only the newest Sony 40ES showing that 'besting' potential.

As well, not sure if you were following it at the time, but there were major concerns as to whether or not LCD would be able to handle 3D at all. Certainly not as good as DLP can deliver, but LCD has definitely stepped up to the game and once again the UB series is doing excellent with 3D content, even better than the 40ES.

So, I don't count Epson out on this. BUT, a couple of years ago they were talking about their own version of LCoS as well, and it wouldn't necessarily be a surprise to me if they ditch a LCD 4K chip in favor of a LCoS 4K chip. Still... they would be the company to release 4K on LCD, and you better believe they aren't just going to sit back and let LCoS and DLP take that market away from them. All the Panasonic and Epson LCD projectors are using Epson chips, so if they don't go 4K, then they lose a huge market share in upcoming years and a lot of reputation. Mark my words, they will have something, but whether it's LCD or LCoS, I certainly can't say.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #22 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 02:17 PM
Senior Member
 
hpmoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
Why are there 4K TVs when there isn't 4K content? Do the TVs accept all standard HDMI 2.0 resolutions that are specified? Are they using older HDMI 1.4 chipsets in them? How do they handle 4K content?

Projectors aren't available under $10,000 at this point, so asking about $1,000 is just silly.

Actually, we are already seeing a number of issues with focus uniformity and quality control issues with the cheap 1080p projectors out there under $1,000... even under $3,000.

The optics required to get a really sharp UHD image from a projector should cost over $1,000 for just the lens. Let alone the HDMI 2.0 compliance these projectors should have, and the big step forward it will be to deliver a UHD chip for DLP, LCoS, and LCD at affordable prices, with quality that is superior to what the current 1080p chipsets are delivering.

Instead of asking when we will see $1,000, maybe you should be asking when we will see the release of consumer grade DLP and LCD chips, and when we will see the $3,000 price point be broken.

Oh, and those threads are already in the forum waiting for your response.
I'm so tired of people making excuses for manufacturers who time innovation according to profit margins (with arguable anti-trust violations when they cut private deals to prevent cannibalizing high-margin "professional" gear). UHD is extremely elementary, old technology. It needs to be sub-$1k NOW, as surely as my Acer 1080p DLP projector cost me $600. As long as people like you make excuses, the executives will keep buying up McMansions and delaying release of minimum-spec gear while delighting in the profitability of their market-gaming portfolios.

My Panasonic GH4 cost $1699. Getting to UHD on the acquisition side was no big deal. The display industry is stubborn and it will once again undermine their long-term profits, in the same way that 3D got killed by greed.
hpmoon is offline  
post #23 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 02:37 PM
Senior Member
 
agent8's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 18
I talked to a guy that does large events for concerts and such. I was complaining about bulbs costing so much. He said the projectors he uses are somewhere in the range of 20K (never even heard of that and we were discussing resolution, not price) and that his arc light bulbs are 5 grand a pop!!!!
As much as 4k would be neat, I can't understand why they can't manufacture a high lumen LED projector. I mean, I bought one of those new mag flashlights with an LED bulb and it is WAY WAY WAY brighter than the old style mag lights, still uses the same D batteries and the cost wasn't that much more. I see leds more and more in homes, headlights, Christmas trees ect, ect, ect. but they can't simply have a decent projector with an LED source that blows away the current type? I don't understand what the obstacle is. They don't need near as much cooling, power or space...

I would argue that a 4K projector would be available at a fairly cheap price for consumers but with OLED taking off, I can almost agree with CARTmen; I can see a tube coming in the mail that you roll out and apply to your wall and then we will laugh at the time that we had to use projectors and archaic things such as bulbs and glass screens.
agent8 is online now  
post #24 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 04:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
kreeturez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 641
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked: 181
Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post
UHD is extremely elementary, old technology. It needs to be sub-$1k NOW
This really made me chuckle.

I'm not sure why I saw so much humor in it... Is it just me?
I'm sure it is! Anyway, I digress...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post
I'm so tired of people making excuses for manufacturers who time innovation according to profit margins (with arguable anti-trust violations when they cut private deals to prevent cannibalizing high-margin "professional" gear). UHD is extremely elementary, old technology. It needs to be sub-$1k NOW, as surely as my Acer 1080p DLP projector cost me $600. As long as people like you make excuses, the executives will keep buying up McMansions and delaying release of minimum-spec gear while delighting in the profitability of their market-gaming portfolios.

My Panasonic GH4 cost $1699. Getting to UHD on the acquisition side was no big deal. The display industry is stubborn and it will once again undermine their long-term profits, in the same way that 3D got killed by greed.

The GH4 is a great camera. It's not a good comparison here, though.
Think about it: digital photography - even in it's budget form - has exceeded the 8-12 megapixel-barrier (that is, '4K') for the best part of the last decade. Many of these budget cameras have offered fairly capable burst modes: say, 4 frames per second; at their maximum resolutions.
The jump to 24 frames per second - the maximum at full-resolution for your GH4 - wasn't so much of a technical barrier as it was a resource-allocation barrier: ie, the imaging devices have supported in excess of 4k for many years - one of main limitations for video has been processing power required to manage/maintain a steady stream of 4k images up to the 24 fps requirement for video. It's easier to add processing power to an already-established imaging-device paradigm than it is to re-fabricate a new-design imaging device whilst still maintaining the same good image quality.

By that token, if you want a more analogous example, I feel you should be comparing resolution of your image acquisition device rather. Keeping in mind that digital cameras took over two decades from their early sub-1-megapixel origins to start to truly compete with film - especially in the budget segment.
4K stills/bursts were available years ago to anyone on a budget. Thereafter it was a matter of increasing burst-speed to video-levels.

In contrast, when you're dealing with projection, the imaging devices - DLP DMD chips/LCD chips/LCoS chips - are all a fraction-of-an-inch in size. It's certainly easier to quadruple the 1080p resolution on a 60" TV than it is to do the same on a sub-1" projection imaging device. Costs will - and already have - certainly started coming down as 4K-LCoS chips have become more popular and cheaper to manufacture. But the volumes are still small; and the demand isn't massive.

Think about it: in the TV segment, 4K is still a tad on the niche side. There're practically no 4K broadcasts. There's no optical media for it yet.

Heck, HDCP 2.2 - the copy-protection medium intended to protect 4K content - was only finalized two months ago! That's right: most older 4K devices are now going to have a problem decoding copy-protected 4K material. Even the receiver I purchased 8 months ago - touting it's "4K-Readiness" - is somewhat worthless in this regard.
That's not good for market penetration,

And on the subject of market penetration: take a walk around the streets in your neighborhood. How many people that you bump into own flat-panel displays? Just about all of them, right?
Now how many of those people own 4K flat-panel displays? A significantly smaller bunch, correct?

OK, now how many of those people own home-theater projectors? Once again, compared to flat-panels, it's a much, much smaller number.

So we're literally dealing with a fairly-niche market within an already-niche market. Anyone who knows their way around economics will tell you that's not fantastic for manufacturing optimization; nor for pricing.

How long did it take 1080p projection - your Acer, for example - to reach the sub-$1000 price-point? A decade?
Manufacturers don't necessarily explicitly want this kind of delay. Think of how companies like BenQ, Optoma and Acer have had such success with their sub-$1000 1080p models; to the point where that price-point has become something of a focus for them. That pricing puts them in volume seller territory - volume is good for business; it's good for profit margins. I don't think it's as simple as "manufacturers deliberately holding off" - these manufacturers want volumes. Even stalwarts like Sony have had good success recently dipping their toes into the sub-$3000 price-bracket for their 1080p projectors; certainly taking a knock in profit-margin to do so but almost definitely making up for it in volume.

As the core projection technology - DLP (unavailable in home-projection-ready 4K form at present); LCD (also unavailable in home-projection-ready 4K form at present) and LCoS - become available and then cheaper to fabricate, manufacturers will jump on board; and prices will start dropping as economics takes over.

I see it happening in the next few years: certainly not as soon as the "NOW" you're after; but definitely less than the decade it took for 1080p.
But one thing's for certain: as a result of the points above, you'll almost-certainly see the $3000 price-bracket broken significantly sooner than the $1000-bracket.

BenQ W1070 Projector; Xtreamer Ultra 2 (running XBMC on OpenELEC) via Sony STR-DH540 AVR with Boston Acoustics SoundWare XS SE 5.1 Audio. MediaBrowser3 for Mobile Streaming.

Helpful post? Click the 'Like' button!
kreeturez is offline  
post #25 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 06:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post
I'm so tired of people making excuses for manufacturers who time innovation according to profit margins (with arguable anti-trust violations when they cut private deals to prevent cannibalizing high-margin "professional" gear). UHD is extremely elementary, old technology. It needs to be sub-$1k NOW, as surely as my Acer 1080p DLP projector cost me $600. As long as people like you make excuses, the executives will keep buying up McMansions and delaying release of minimum-spec gear while delighting in the profitability of their market-gaming portfolios.

My Panasonic GH4 cost $1699. Getting to UHD on the acquisition side was no big deal. The display industry is stubborn and it will once again undermine their long-term profits, in the same way that 3D got killed by greed.
So, you have a camera that can't capture 2160p/60, and doesn't need to reproduce that image in any native resolution locally, so you think that the same concept can be applied to front projection technologies?

Everyone and their brother seems have a digital camera, so the economies of scale aren't an apples-to-apples comparison, and shows a very specific naiveté to suggest that because you can buy one thing for 'x' dollars, then something else should cost the same.

The development of consumer usable 4K chips requires HDMI 2.0 chip sets which are readily available and support all the resolutions that people want, which means a significant increase in the quality of the video processing chips that are currently on the market. The use of larger lenses in projectors is still a major hurdle as the quality of lenses in the current crop of 1080p cheap projectors is truly marginal.

So, I am not making excuses, I am explaining the real world as it is. You may not like it, but the real world doesn't cater to you, it's just what it is.

By most accounts I'm an optimist on when we see sub $3,000 4K solutions because I think it will be within 2 years of a consumer 4K chip set, and I think we may see one from Epson this year, which will push DLP to have it more quickly. But, $1,000? Keep waiting my friend, keep waiting.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
post #26 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 06:29 PM
Senior Member
 
hpmoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Peculiar to see both the usual defense of industry sluggishness, combined with a gloss over the factoid that betrays all the coddling of the conglomerates: I note again, there is a non-compete deal to protect the roll-out of digital cinema 4k projectors (which is in turn combining the battle to destroy celluloid as a more costly -- though better -- delivery medium, combined with Hollywood's desperation to regain control over distribution). You can hem and haw around that until your face turns blue, but it's plainly and simply an impediment to rational pricing of 4K projection at home.
hpmoon is offline  
post #27 of 27 Old 08-13-2014, 06:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by hpmoon View Post
Peculiar to see both the usual defense of industry sluggishness, combined with a gloss over the factoid that betrays all the coddling of the conglomerates: I note again, there is a non-compete deal to protect the roll-out of digital cinema 4k projectors (which is in turn combining the battle to destroy celluloid as a more costly -- though better -- delivery medium, combined with Hollywood's desperation to regain control over distribution). You can hem and haw around that until your face turns blue, but it's plainly and simply an impediment to rational pricing of 4K projection at home.
The deal applies to DLP, not LCD or LCoS (which already has product out there), but it doesn't change that this rollout is no different than any other we have seen from projector manufacturers over the years.

The only DLP chip is the commercial 1.3" chip on the market. There isn't a consumer .9" or smaller chip which is in production, or has even been hinted at, and until Texas Instruments decides to release that chip, then they certainly will be holding things up. But, neither you nor I have any idea what is holding that chip up. Likewise, why isn't there a LCD chip yet? UHD certainly isn't a 'new' concept.

But in many ways it is. The miserable drought of HDMI 2.0 chip sets and video processing chips is at least a good year behind schedule, and this is impacting the entire video industry, including the $10,000+ displays that can't get them readily.

I've had these discussions with professional manufacturers already, and I've had them here before, there are about half a dozen different holdups to UHD projection, and some are silly, but some are going to take some time to get through.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off