With 4k on the Horizon -- What to do? W1070 or VPL40es - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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With 4k on the Horizon -- What to do? W1070 or VPL40es

I have a 150" screen about 13' from the PJ mount. I will live here 2 more years before I move. My Acer H5360 has run its course, pixels are dying. I get about 116 inches at this distance.

I could grab a Benq 1070 for $700, and fill up the entire screen, probably need to move the PJ mount as the contractor didn't put it quite centered, and inverting the offset light engine on my mount moves things further off to the side.

Everyone is also raving about the new 40es, with lens shift and all for $2000.

I would probably go for the 40es as it could fill the screen in my next place, if it weren't for the fact that 4k is on the horizon -- and would I be better saving the $1300 towards a 4k PJ in a few years.

I watch a little 3d, lots of 2d movies/tv, and some gaming.
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post #2 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 06:23 AM
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Since you're going to move soon, you should save some money and get the 1070. It's an upgrade from your Acer unit. The Sony unit is great, but it's huge compared to what you're used to, and it's way more expensive. (You'll need a different ceiling mount or look into shelf mounting) Get the 1070 and start saving up for your 4k projector in a couple of years.
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post #3 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 06:40 AM
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If your room isn't painted in dark, flat colors and you don't want to paint, you can use that as an excuse for the w1070 as the 40es gets into that contrast range where it's good to paint and the Benq doesn't really have the sort of black level to worry about it that much.

You don't need the added placement flexibility. If the higher noise level of the Benq shouldn't bother you..that's pretty much everything.

The Sony has advantages for noise, placement, and black level/contrast..that's about it. The first two aren't always problems for many, and that leaves the Sony with one advantage that's largely wasted in a light-colored room.

Benq has its own advantages too: much longer lamp life seems to be most peoples' experience, even better/cleaner 3D with the popular g15 glasses for it only costing $12, better motion resolution and fast-motion handling, cheaper replacement lamps if you actually use it for enough hours to need one, and obviously it's about 1/3 the price.

Those are some pretty good excuses if you need them.
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post #4 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 11:53 AM
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How soon do you plan to jump to 4K? Are you waiting for a certain price, or just more products on the market, or more content, or is it just one of those "when I get around to it" things?

Here's why I ask. I am a huge, huge fan of the BenQ W1070 -- make no mistake about that. But the difference in image quality between the W1070 and the Sony HW40ES is pretty massive, and if you're going to keep this projector for 5-6 years, it doesn't hurt to buy something that you aren't already thinking of as a stopgap measure.
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post #5 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 12:59 PM
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I agree with the above posters. If it were me, I would just get the W1070 and wait until my home theater was totally perfect before getting a projector which was pushing higher contrast and more top-shelf design. The W1070 will not only satisfy your needs where you are now, but may make you happy for a few years in your new place until the 4K units finally start rolling out at a reasonable price. I would expect sub $3,000 4K within the next couple of years, so the timing may just all be perfect for your needs.

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post #6 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
I would expect sub $3,000 4K within the next couple of years, so the timing may just all be perfect for your needs.
You are far more optimistic than I, sir.
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post #7 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PJC Bill View Post
You are far more optimistic than I, sir.
There's a nice discussion on the topic here:
4K projectors under $3K

My entire basis is on when the 4K (or UHD) chips are released from Epson and TI. If they delay 4K chips, then it will delay the entire process, but with 1080p as low, or lower than 720p was as it disappeared from the market, and HDMI 2.0 starting to get production up, I expect that we will have commodity pricing within the next two years on the parts that allow 4K to happen, so really all manufacturers need is a decent lens and the chip. The rest should be set to go.

But, if the chips don't come out, then forget it.

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post #8 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 03:28 PM
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@PJC Bill Fantastic to see you around these parts, Bill. Your PC review last year was half the reason I got the W1070 the following month! Input from someone of your pedigree is invaluable.


One additional consideration in terms of this decision: how recent a build of the W1070 have you seen in action? I ask because I had to return my original unit (Feb-2013-built; hardware revision 00-103) and had it replaced with a unit nearly a year newer (Jan-2014-built; hardware revision 01-107); and the new one had some pretty significant improvements over the old one.

Aspects of the physical build-quality were better (lens-shift cover is sturdier and clicks into place instead of simply sliding; HDMI ports are less recessed and thus more likely to make contact; fan is significantly quieter), it came bundled with a smart-looking backlit remote (that now looks in place with my other AV-equipment remotes) which replaced the dinky one older units shipped with, it came with the most recent firmware (notable for it's vastly improved 3D-mode support - but, more importantly, for even better out-of-the-box color calibration settings). 300 hours in and I can confirm it's also much, much better in terms of brightness uniformity than my previous unit (which was quite a common complaint at launch and was mentioned in a few reviews).

This leaves my only significant gripe as black levels, which I do wish were somewhat better. (This is also almost certainly the reason for its relatively low measured contrast ratio - half the black level would double the CR).


If you can get your hands on a recent W1070 build, then the combination of improved OTB color, brightness uniformity, fan and remote might sway your opinion a little... (that, and the fact that it's even cheaper now than it was at the time of your review!)
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post #9 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 03:33 PM
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To me, 4K isn't really worth it until it's more mainstream and more material is available at a reasonable cost (subjective, I know). JMO.
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post #10 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 04:49 PM
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To me, 4K isn't really worth it until it's more mainstream and more material is available at a reasonable cost (subjective, I know). JMO.
This is pretty much the issue as I see it. 4K won't fall in price until there's significant demand / interest beyond early adopters and tech-heads (if casual buyers don't care, why lower the price?), and that isn't going to happen until there's real content. As of right now, that still looks like it's going to be some ways off.
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post #11 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 05:01 PM
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This is pretty much the issue as I see it. 4K won't fall in price until there's significant demand / interest beyond early adopters and tech-heads (if casual buyers don't care, why lower the price?), and that isn't going to happen until there's real content. As of right now, that still looks like it's going to be some ways off.
What supports this statement?

In all fairness, this is just not true.

4K/UHD are the buzzwords now. A year or so ago a 4K flat panel display would set you back $5,000+, now the newest Samsung 65" UHD display is under $3,000, the same price that the better Samsung displays were a couple of years ago. This holds as solid proof that manufacturers are delivering 4K displays and prices are dropping significantly.

Likewise, read through the thread I linked to. There is a history of projectors coming out with only a couple of manufacturers/products on board, but once the DLP and LCD chips are released by companies like InFocus, Optoma, and Epson, the prices rocket downward. Already, the 4K capable (but not native) JVC projectors are around $5,000. The ONLY thing they need to upgrade is the chip from a 1080p chip to a 4K chip. I would expect that within the next two years for sure. But, we also could see that slide into their lower level lineup as well.

But, it's the release of the DLP and LCD 4K chips for consumer projectors which will be the catalyst for pricing as I believe history supports when the rollout of 1080p came down the line, and I expect these chips within the next couple of years.

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post #12 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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How soon do you plan to jump to 4K? Are you waiting for a certain price, or just more products on the market, or more content, or is it just one of those "when I get around to it" things?
I am waiting for HDMI 2.0/Display Port options to show up, standardized content/delivery, and likely until I move out of here. Also prices below 5k are kind of the barrier for me. That and right now while I have decent screen, it is the living room of my high rise in an extremely urban asian city, so going for it now would be a bit of a waste (no painting as per wife, and 200lb subwoofers are in storage as per police).

Seeing as how you can get 4k TVs for the 300's, including 65" for ~$1000 from Seiki (albeit at 30hz), I don't see the $15k prices holding up on the projector side for too long.

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post #13 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 06:41 PM
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@PJC Bill Fantastic to see you around these parts, Bill. Your PC review last year was half the reason I got the W1070 the following month! Input from someone of your pedigree is invaluable.


One additional consideration in terms of this decision: how recent a build of the W1070 have you seen in action? I ask because I had to return my original unit (Feb-2013-built; hardware revision 00-103) and had it replaced with a unit nearly a year newer (Jan-2014-built; hardware revision 01-107); and the new one had some pretty significant improvements over the old one.

Aspects of the physical build-quality were better (lens-shift cover is sturdier and clicks into place instead of simply sliding; HDMI ports are less recessed and thus more likely to make contact; fan is significantly quieter), it came bundled with a smart-looking backlit remote (that now looks in place with my other AV-equipment remotes) which replaced the dinky one older units shipped with, it came with the most recent firmware (notable for it's vastly improved 3D-mode support - but, more importantly, for even better out-of-the-box color calibration settings). 300 hours in and I can confirm it's also much, much better in terms of brightness uniformity than my previous unit (which was quite a common complaint at launch and was mentioned in a few reviews).

This leaves my only significant gripe as black levels, which I do wish were somewhat better. (This is also almost certainly the reason for its relatively low measured contrast ratio - half the black level would double the CR).


If you can get your hands on a recent W1070 build, then the combination of improved OTB color, brightness uniformity, fan and remote might sway your opinion a little... (that, and the fact that it's even cheaper now than it was at the time of your review!)
Wish I knew that the brightness uniformity issue was fixed before I got my HD25e. That probably would have shifted me to the 1070.
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post #14 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 08:55 PM
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What supports this statement?

In all fairness, this is just not true.

4K/UHD are the buzzwords now. A year or so ago a 4K flat panel display would set you back $5,000+, now the newest Samsung 65" UHD display is under $3,000, the same price that the better Samsung displays were a couple of years ago. This holds as solid proof that manufacturers are delivering 4K displays and prices are dropping significantly.

Likewise, read through the thread I linked to. There is a history of projectors coming out with only a couple of manufacturers/products on board, but once the DLP and LCD chips are released by companies like InFocus, Optoma, and Epson, the prices rocket downward. Already, the 4K capable (but not native) JVC projectors are around $5,000. The ONLY thing they need to upgrade is the chip from a 1080p chip to a 4K chip. I would expect that within the next two years for sure. But, we also could see that slide into their lower level lineup as well.

But, it's the release of the DLP and LCD 4K chips for consumer projectors which will be the catalyst for pricing as I believe history supports when the rollout of 1080p came down the line, and I expect these chips within the next couple of years.
Honestly, you're probably right about all that.

I do still remain doubtful that we're close to getting meaningful 4K content, though. A couple highly-compressed shows on Netflix and a proprietary Sony device don't fill me with confidence at the moment.
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post #15 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 09:40 PM
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Honestly, you're probably right about all that.

I do still remain doubtful that we're close to getting meaningful 4K content, though. A couple highly-compressed shows on Netflix and a proprietary Sony device don't fill me with confidence at the moment.
Hey! We'll have to agree to agree on this one.



I've been the moderator of the PJC Forums since they started (more or less) and followed the entire roll out of 1080p very closely. Keep in mind we had 1080i and 720p broadcasts for years, but no true 1080p content for ages. Blu-ray Disc was years behind the 1080p display rollout. Still, people flocked to 1080p because of marketing. Streaming 1080p is pretty close to garbage compared to Blu-ray Disc, and the bit-rate is nothing compared to broadcast television, so I agree that we won't see content online.

The best hope (IMO) is for Blu-ray to update the spec. to include 4K content. This has already been announced (I believe) so perhaps in the next two years we will see 4K native BD players. They will support all existing BD discs, upconvert to 4K, and play new 4K native discs.

Lots of other nice things I would like to see come along as well. But, for the time being... sub $3,000 4K projectors and BD players w/discs would be a great thing for us front projection types.

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post #16 of 32 Old 06-25-2014, 10:00 PM
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There's a nice discussion on the topic here:
4K projectors under $3K

My entire basis is on when the 4K (or UHD) chips are released from Epson and TI. If they delay 4K chips, then it will delay the entire process, but with 1080p as low, or lower than 720p was as it disappeared from the market, and HDMI 2.0 starting to get production up, I expect that we will have commodity pricing within the next two years on the parts that allow 4K to happen, so really all manufacturers need is a decent lens and the chip. The rest should be set to go.

But, if the chips don't come out, then forget it.
In two years we won't have any 4k projectors under $3000. We will lucky if JVC or Sony release a 4K projector with the full hdmi 2.0 for $12,000 late 2014
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post #17 of 32 Old 06-26-2014, 07:02 AM
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@PJC Bill 300 hours in and I can confirm it's also much, much better in terms of brightness uniformity than my previous unit (which was quite a common complaint at launch and was mentioned in a few reviews).
I wish I knew that they had improved uniformity when I bought my HD25E - I picked it due to the 1070's uniformity problem. I probably would have gone with a 1070 if I knew they had solved the problem.

I was in a similar position to the original poster last December - trying to decide whether to get a BenQ/Optoma <$1,000 projector, or a refurbished Epson 5020, with the argument to go for the less expensive project based on the idea that a <$3,000 4k projector would be out in a few years, and I may as well save the money. As I stated above, I went with the <$1,000 Optoma HD25E. Sold a 3010 for about the same amount as the Optoma, after reading Coderguy's reviews that the <$1,000 DLPs were better than the 3010. I look at this as a time to get experience with different technologies (LCD, DLP) before I buy a 4k projector. Too bad I can't sell the Optoma and get an LCOS for the same amount to see what one of those is like!
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There will not be a sub $3000 projector for awhile. I don't see going $15,000 to $3,000 in 2-3 years
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post #19 of 32 Old 06-26-2014, 09:37 PM
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There will not be a sub $3000 projector for awhile. I don't see going $15,000 to $3,000 in 2-3 years
I don't agree, but if you are right, and it looks like prices aren't driven down in a few years, I'll look at a higher quality 1080p projector then. I'm generally happy with the current projector for now, though. By then, there should be a better indication of the trajectory of UHD prices.

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post #20 of 32 Old 06-29-2014, 08:42 AM
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I don't agree, but if you are right, and it looks like prices aren't driven down in a few years, I'll look at a higher quality 1080p projector then. I'm generally happy with the current projector for now, though. By then, there should be a better indication of the trajectory of UHD prices.
I'm sure the prices will come down, but not the way people on this thread thinks. Of course everyone wants the best for $1000, but it just does not work that way. J will be extremely surprised if we can get a 4k projector for $10,000 MSRP this year. Its very, very unlikely the following year it will be under $3000. The only way is if some companies do what jvc does with eshift and just add 4k support with upscaling the image. Its not true 4k, but that will be the only way. I would want nothing but a 4K DLP that uses RF 3D, low lag for less than $3000, however, I know that's only a dream for a long time
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post #21 of 32 Old 06-30-2014, 12:03 AM
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think so,The only way is if some companies do what jvc does with eshift and just add 4k support with upscaling the image. Its not true 4k, but that will be the only way. I would want nothing but a 4K DLP that uses RF 3D, low lag for less than $3000, [IMG]http://*******/njkHuk[/IMG]however, I know that's only a dream for a long time
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post #22 of 32 Old 06-30-2014, 06:52 AM
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Blee, the reason I disagree is that right now, prices are held up because there's only one chipset, Sony's proprietary SRXD/LCOS one, that is available for 4k. Once TI releases a 4k consumer DLP chip, I think manufacturers will be falling all over each other, as they will need to do SOMETHING to continue projector sales, which, to my understanding, are flat and probably flattening more. Unless the 4k chip is more expensive than I expect, I think you will be able to combine that with something like the Fujinon lens in the Epson 5030 and what should be off-the-shelf video processing by then, and slip in around the $3k price mark. Maybe the linchpin that determines if prices will go down is if Epson can create a comparable chipset, and drive competition.

Also, I find Integrated_AV's comparisons with the 1080p timeline compelling.

Prognostication is always a dangerous art, and I wouldn't place too much stock in anyone's predictions, including mine, so I may be sitting down to a tasty helping of crow in 3 years. But, if the worst thing that happens to me is that I was watching an Optoma HD25e instead of a refurbished Epson 5020 for that time period, then, as they say, First World Problems!

(BTW, just to clarify, my "prediction" is "around" 3k street price with models released around CEDIA in Fall 2016, so 3 CEDIAs from now.)

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post #23 of 32 Old 06-30-2014, 09:15 AM
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skater2 - Blee is very adamant in his position on this. It holds zero historical basis at all though. Blu-ray players dropped from $1,000 to under $200 in just a few years. An 80% decline in price. The JVC eShift models which have a quality lens, 4K processing, etc. are available for $5,000 today. Does anyone really think that putting in a 4K native chip will add $5,000 to that price? Of course not!

But, more importantly, we have seen a drop on 4K flat panel displays in the last year or two which has been in line with market trends.

Everything, and I mean everything, is predicated on the release of a 4K native DLP and/or LCD chip. As soon as those chips come to market, then within a year there will be projectors under $3,000. It may take a few years after that to hit $1,000, but that will happen as well.

All of these discussions already occurred though. When 1080p rolled out, there were people just like Blee who swore that there was no possible way pricing would drop from $25,000 to under $3,000 in just a few years. Likewise, when Blu-ray came out, there would be no way that players would cost less than $100 (similar to DVD player pricing) in just a few years.

My prediction in November of last year was that it would be 3 years.

I still believe that to be the case, but I could actually see it occur by November of next year if the chips roll out this year or early next year.

The first consumer UHD projectors from companies like BenQ are very unlikely to have a street price over $3,000, and BenQ is right there on the front line with DLP delivering a ton of product. It truly is about the chips being released so manufacturers can build for them. I've gotta think that BenQ and others are getting worked up to get this product to the market. If they are really smart, they may already be designing product in anticipation of a chip being released.
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post #24 of 32 Old 06-30-2014, 03:34 PM
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Blee, the reason I disagree is that right now, prices are held up because there's only one chipset, Sony's proprietary SRXD/LCOS one, that is available for 4k. Once TI releases a 4k consumer DLP chip, I think manufacturers will be falling all over each other, as they will need to do SOMETHING to continue projector sales, which, to my understanding, are flat and probably flattening more. Unless the 4k chip is more expensive than I expect, I think you will be able to combine that with something like the Fujinon lens in the Epson 5030 and what should be off-the-shelf video processing by then, and slip in around the $3k price mark. Maybe the linchpin that determines if prices will go down is if Epson can create a comparable chipset, and drive competition.

Also, I find Integrated_AV's comparisons with the 1080p timeline compelling.

Prognostication is always a dangerous art, and I wouldn't place too much stock in anyone's predictions, including mine, so I may be sitting down to a tasty helping of crow in 3 years. But, if the worst thing that happens to me is that I was watching an Optoma HD25e instead of a refurbished Epson 5020 for that time period, then, as they say, First World Problems!

(BTW, just to clarify, my "prediction" is "around" 3k street price with models released around CEDIA in Fall 2016, so 3 CEDIAs from now.)
From what I understand, T.I. isn't working on, nor do they plan to work on a 4K consumer DLP chip. Ever. That leaves 4K DCI projectors. Those are available now. You'll love the picture. You won't love the price.


I'll expect to see $ 3000.00 4K projectors released at Cedia 2020.

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post #25 of 32 Old 06-30-2014, 03:45 PM
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Buy the best projector you feel comfortable buying now, and enjoy it. No one knows what is coming in the future. Life is short !

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From what I understand, T.I. isn't working on, nor do they plan to work on a 4K consumer DLP chip.
Craig, is this insider scuttlebutt, or is there an article or link someplace? What little I've heard is mostly based on that Sim2 review that mentioned consumer chips in 2015, and some rumors reported around here.

EDIT: And to clarify, by 4k, I really mean UHD 3840x2160.

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post #27 of 32 Old 07-02-2014, 08:52 PM
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Scuttlebutt, from two people that know way more than I do. However, that doesn't mean T.I. isn't working on something new!

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post #28 of 32 Old 07-02-2014, 09:41 PM
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4K (or UHD) really seems to be a buzzword, and seeing how well 1080p did as a buzzword, I find it nearly impossible to believe that we won't see chips from every major manufacturer. Sony already has something, and is charging through the nose for it, but JVC, Epson, and TI are certainly unlikely to sit idly by and let someone else develop affordable commercial and residential 4K product. Already HDMI switchers and A/V receivers are getting tagged with the '4K' logo on them, and there will be a bit of content hitting the market shortly... But, when (if?) BD content becomes available in 4K, then the front projection demand should go up a fair bit.

While I have said I'm very confident we will see something in about 2 years under $3,000... I remain firm in the caveat that this is all chip dependent.

Considering that the TI commercial theater DLP chip is not incredibly large (1.37 inches I think) I'm not sure why they wouldn't just release that for consumer use at some point. Not really develop a different chip for the consumer market, but use the chip they have for it.

Meh - what do I know?

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Considering that the TI commercial theater DLP chip is not incredibly large (1.37 inches I think) I'm not sure why they wouldn't just release that for consumer use at some point. Not really develop a different chip for the consumer market, but use the chip they have for it.
The only thing that gives me any pause as to TI coming out with a 4k chip is whether yields are low. After all, they need to get 4 times as many mirrors defect-free per chip, so if they have a 1 in, say, 3 million bad mirror rate, they would get a lot more defective 3840x2160 chips than 1920x1080 chips. Maybe, for pro use, they can crank up the chip price to cover for the low yield, as it's a smaller part of the overall projector cost.

I know nothing about DMD yields, so I'm just speculating here, but it sounds like the pico projector DMD mirrors are about the same size as you would need to produce for a <1 inch 3840x2160 chip. That alone makes me speculate that a consumer-sized DLP chip is not too big of a technological hurdle.
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4K (or UHD) really seems to be a buzzword, and seeing how well 1080p did as a buzzword, I find it nearly impossible to believe that we won't see chips from every major manufacturer. Sony already has something, and is charging through the nose for it, but JVC, Epson, and TI are certainly unlikely to sit idly by and let someone else develop affordable commercial and residential 4K product. Already HDMI switchers and A/V receivers are getting tagged with the '4K' logo on them, and there will be a bit of content hitting the market shortly... But, when (if?) BD content becomes available in 4K, then the front projection demand should go up a fair bit.

While I have said I'm very confident we will see something in about 2 years under $3,000... I remain firm in the caveat that this is all chip dependent.

Considering that the TI commercial theater DLP chip is not incredibly large (1.37 inches I think) I'm not sure why they wouldn't just release that for consumer use at some point. Not really develop a different chip for the consumer market, but use the chip they have for it.

Meh - what do I know?
I don't mean to be rude but to me it seems you know little on the topic and saying that you're confident about a sub-$3000 4K machine in the near future is only spreading false rumors based on nothing more that your intuition which only bolsters hope for the people that want to see a 4K projector under $3000 in the very near future. Unfortunately this isn't going to happen any time soon and from what I hear, it seems that it won't happen at all (at least in the DLP world) because TI doesn't have any plans on releasing a consumer 4K DMD.

Also a micro-display of that size is HUGE. The reason why we aren't going to see TI use a DMD of this size on consumer projectors has to do with the optics needed to project an image from such a large device. Sim2 can pull off using these devices because their projectors have the budget to employ such a lens to do this. Other limiting factors for using such a large micro-display are lens shift and lens zoom capabilities. Ever wonder why .95" DMD projectors have such limited placement flexibility and why home theater projectors from Sony (0.6" 1080p SXRD) , JVC (0.7" 1080p DiLA), and .65" DMD DLP projectors have such higher amounts of zoom and lens shift? The size of the optics needed for greater zoom/lens shift are significantly larger once you reach .95" and higher. They can use much smaller (cheaper) optics on the aforementioned mirco-displays and still have plenty of room left for lens shift and zoom. Given the tremendous lack of available production cost a sub $3000 has, there's no way they could put a lens large enough that would work with a micro-display chip that size and if they could there would most likely be literally no zoom or lens shift which would make installation a real b*tch.

I just think it's best for all of us to stop with the speculation based on absolutely no evidence. At least wait until September, when CEDIA is happening, because it's most likely there where we'll get some information on what's to come (if it even is). I think everyones best bet for something more affordable, but still most likely more than $3000, would be to keep a keen eye on Epson at CEDIA. I highly doubt JVC will bring us "affordable" 4K with it's first iteration of 4K in the front projection world.

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