When is someone going to make a decent projector? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 16Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-29-2014, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez View Post
I thought you wanted ultra short throw, not something like the w1070. Ultra short throw optics that can resolve a 1080p image are significantly more expensive to produce.

Look, your options are:

1) Buy what fits what you want now for a high cost
2) Buy what mostly fits what you want now for a low cost
3) Wait for the tech to improve

The reality is that what you're asking for is still far less convenient than a TV, and as such will remain a niche product. As long as projectors require lighting control, they will remain niche products, even ignoring any other issues (and ultra short throw optics sure as hell introduce other usability issues, because have fun if you wall is slightly uneven!).

You're asking for all the latest and best tech to be crammed into a box for cheap without considering how those parts interact or what kinds of reliability issues they can create. That's the kind of Homer's Dream Car thinking that leads to Chinese knockoff projectors with great specs on paper and terrible images on screen.

Projectors have been getting better by leaps and bounds over the past few years. You can now buy a 1080p LED projector with 1000 lumens for the price a bulb-based 720p projector with similar lumen output would cost you a few years ago. And you can get a bulb-based 1080p projector with much higher lumen output than either for a lot less. Things will continue to get better. Stomping your feet and wondering why it isn't here right now doesn't do anything. By the time what you want is available you'll just be wondering why it isn't 4K instead.
No not latest and greatest!! Just decent as the title of the post. Heck I will take a Benq W1070st which can be had for 800 and can produce a 110 inch image from 6 feet with an led light source with infinite dimming. Easy!! A couple of engineers at Benq could build this for the same component cost as the Benq W1070st. The only thing that they would have to recoup is R&D. I would easily pay $1500.

A projector like this would outsell any other projector on this forum. Why isn't someone building it!!!!
Bsims2719 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-29-2014, 04:21 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
No not latest and greatest!! Just decent
Your definition of decent is, in fact, quite demanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Easy!!
What makes you think this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
A couple of engineers at Benq could build this for the same component cost as the Benq W1070st.
What makes you think this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
The only thing that they would have to recoup is R&D.
What makes you think this?

You seem to be under the impression that you can, right now, get a 2000 lumen LED light source with color and greyscale accuracy equal to bulb+wheel for cheap, and I'm not sure where you're getting this idea.

This whole thread is pretty much halfway between Homer's Dream Car and "why don't they make the whole plane out of the black box material?"
sethsez is offline  
Old 06-29-2014, 04:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez View Post
Your definition of decent is, in fact, quite demanding.

What makes you think this?

What makes you think this?

What makes you think this?

You seem to be under the impression that you can, right now, get a 2000 lumen LED light source with color and greyscale accuracy equal to bulb+wheel for cheap, and I'm not sure where you're getting this idea.

This whole thread is pretty much halfway between Homer's Dream Car and "why don't they make the whole plane out of the black box material?"
Yes, our schools have failed.
Nicktx27 is offline  
Old 06-29-2014, 09:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 188
The efficiency of watts/heat per lumen on hpmv lamps is very high, so high that you will still require the same amount of fanspeed (or more) to protect a 1000-2000lumen outputting (to screen) LED/laser source.

There are only two lampless options in current production: LED (or hybrid which is limited by the LEDs) which max out around 450 color correct lumens, and laser on phosphor which is large, hot and very expensive..and doesn't have the lifespan of LED.

For the record, the small-cased (but not pico) LG 75/80/85 runs VERY quietly in all but the very brightest mode.
I can agree that a slightly bigger case than pico's can make a big difference in noise.

Dimming LEDs cause strong colorshifts and nobody seems to have done well to counteract this. Any dimming beyond 3-5X (far from infinity) can be visually distracting.

You'd be hardpressed to notice the effects of the cheap optics in a cheap projector with most moving video..just like you won't notice the full resolution of your 1080 phone until you can focus your eyes 4-5inches from the screen. ..or notice that it's using a pentile matrix.

If you don't need shortthrow because there are standard options that are nearly silent even from a couple feet away from your head, and you're okay closing some curtains, what you've asked for is largely available right now for an affordable price.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,499
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 378
The one part of all of this that I agree with wholeheartedly is that with recent advancements to deliver reasonably solid light output from LED projectors, still has only netted one 1080p model that's affordable and decent in the LG PF85U.

It certainly seems overdue for a W1070/W1080ST type model with LED. Potentially quieter fans due to lower heat on the light engine, and a 'forever' light source. The contrast is a different issue, as infinite dimming does nothing in an ANSI test pattern, or with real world design. There is no such thing as infinite contrast that actually produces a solid image that I have heard of. There are always compromises.

Still, things are certainly moving that direction, and in this niche market of front projection, it's 4K that's likely to have the upper hand for the next few years.

I have said for a couple of years that if they can build a 720p LED projector for $500 and a great looking 1080p projector for about $1,000, then why the heck can't we get that great looking 1080p projector, with an LED engine in it?

But, just because I want to see it, doesn't mean I get the complexities of why I haven't seen it, and more to the point, I am certainly not 'demanding' to see it. I just look forward to a point where we can see a true 1,200+ lumen from a LED light source on a 1080p/3D chip set, or maybe even UHD at that point.

LED seems like a race to the bottom instead of a race to the middle. So, there is some disconnect there.

The request for ultra short throw is naive as it flies in the face of optical design. Short throw (such as the W1080ST), is more achievable, but adds cost. Consider that the W1070 and the W1080ST are almost identical projectors, but have a cost difference of several hundred dollars. That's what a decent short throw lens adds to the mix.

Flip side is that many want a projector out of the line of sight. I have a deep admiration for the lens on the Epson 8350, or their 5030. Mid to long throw, a ton of lens shift... Take the Sony 40ES which is extremely quiet and produces a great image. Take the LCoS chip set from the JVC projectors (1080p) or the Sony 4K chip (100ES).

Laser? I'm not sure which manufacturer is doing anything with lasers for any reasonable price right now, so we'll throw that in the 'fiction' category for the moment.

Two step forwards, one step back? I'm not sure about that. I just think that when you look at commodity pricing and putting out a decent product (of which there are many) to consumers, you have to have a target which reaches the most people. A typical room may be 10-14 feet deep, ceilings may be 7'-8' tall in a basement area, or due to soffits. The use of short throw optics adds a great deal to the cost, the use of a LED engine takes away a lot of lumens. The use of a 5 segment color wheel adds brightness statistics, but harms overall image quality. The use of a 2x color wheel with a clear segment does as well. The BenQ W1070 is one of the most well thought out projectors on the market. Variants within a couple hundred dollars or so which swapped the lens for one with better zoom and lens shift would be nice. They already have the short throw version. A LED based version would certainly be nice for those who don't need the light output of the current model.

I think one of the biggest two forward, one back violators was Epson when they got rid of their excellent zoom/shift lens they used on the 8350, when the 3020 came along. I'm strongly of the belief that they stopped using that lens because it drove sales away from their 8700UB model to the 8350 and they didn't want that to happen with the 5020 and the 3020. So, around $1,000 you have the 8345 and AR100 with good zoom and lens shift, but from there you have to go to the Panasonic AE8000 or Sony 40ES (not as good) or the Epson 5030 to really get that versatility. I think that's a real shame and I would love to see that type of lens in Optoma, InFocus, and BenQ projectors as well as the cheaper Epson models again.

Give it time, and we will see all of this come down the road. I have no issues waiting patiently, even if some others do.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
airscapes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,734
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 91 Post(s)
Liked: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
I'm frustrated with the projector market. IMO there is nothing really good out there. It's either low res, to loud, to expensive, expensive lamps, poor contrast, etc.

What is frustrating is that all of the individual technologies to make a really good projector have been available for some time but for some reason manufacturers are stuck in this creep mode. Not only that but these solid state components are relatively cheap when mass produced.

Here is what I need. Ultra short throw, good optics, scanning laser with infinite contrast, 1080p and at least 2000 lumens capable of 150 inch image.

I would be willing to bet that the manufacturing cost would be less than $2000. I am willing to pay $3000.

When is someone going to mass produce something really good?
When it is profitable!
airscapes is online now  
Old 06-30-2014, 11:40 AM
Member
 
PJC Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 26
While we're listing things we can't have, I'd like a pony.
PJC Bill is offline  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Actually scanning lasers have infinite contrast.
with projection, it's about the room. a projector that displays 0.0000fl black levels can still end up with terrible contrast in a 'normal' room. it gets even worse if the white levels are super bright.


so, even if that's the case. with actual content on screen, the brighter the image, the worse the black levels. the only way to avoid that is with room treatment. nothing can be done on the projector to fix the fact that it's difficult to make a white screen look black.
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 06-30-2014, 09:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Again missing the point. The global market isn't set up to buy individual components for projectors. Now you are really talking niche market. A market where people who want to assemble their own projectors.

How much do you think a laptop would cost if you bought all the individual pieces that make it up assuming that you could find them?

The point is that electronics mass produced are crazy cheap. My cell phone has 1080p resolution, infinite contrast, and more computing power than a desktop bought a few years back, a better camera than the one I bought a few years back, an led light source and is manufactured for a cost of around 150 dollars.

The point is that all the pieces off the puzzle of making a relatively inexpensive high quality projector are there. When is someone going build it?
but now you're assuming that everybody wants the same thing...


either, there are several options to satisfy all the needs of the market, but we pay slightly more because of lower production. or, we all have to buy the same thing, and maybe they'll pass the savings on to the consumer.


what it sounds like to me, is you want something that looks really good on paper with awesome specs for a low price. but many of us want something that's made to a higher quality. your cell phone camera may be 1080p capable, and have 18MP's or whatever, but there's still a very good reason 99.9% of all professional photographers don't use their cell phones.


anyway, I simply disagree that that pieces have yet to be assembled. they have been. if you want a projector with 'ok' performance and an LED light source. it's out there, it's just not going to cost as little as the w1070 because it costs more to build. If you want an LED projector for the same price as the w1070, it's also out there, but it won't be as good. there are also LED projectors on the market with better performance than the w1070, and ones that are cheaper too. they've been made, they just don't cost what you think they should, maybe because they aren't sold in high enough numbers. but they aren't sold in high enough numbers because there's actually not that many ppl that want them.

Last edited by fierce_gt; 06-30-2014 at 10:11 PM.
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 06-30-2014, 10:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktx27 View Post
I think you are very ignorant of the tech and it's ability.
well he did compare it to cold fusion...




a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 07-01-2014, 06:25 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
well he did compare it to cold fusion...




a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Lol! Good point.
Nicktx27 is offline  
Old 07-01-2014, 06:28 PM
Member
 
kevinlg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 19
So let's see what you want

Ultra short throw? It seems you want this due to fan noise, the Sony hw40es is literally 4 feet on top of my head and the thing is whisper quiet at 21db, so that issue is fixed

good optics? It has full 3d 1080p with LCoS technology with delivers an amazing image.

scanning laser with infinite contrast? no idea what that is, looked it up and looks stupid and outdated tech

1080p? yes and full 3d

at least 2000 lumens capable of 150 inch image? it's not 2000 lumens but game mode is 1714 lumens, this puppy will torch a 150 inch image so that won't be a worry either.

It even zooms and has lens shift.

You said you would pay "$3000" for such unit well when you're ready I'll sell ya mine for $3000

Only con is the "lamp replacement" but put it in low mode and youll be able to watch about 4~ hours a day for two years just fine.
ben38 and Ftoast like this.
kevinlg is offline  
Old 07-01-2014, 07:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 188
And its $1000 savings will allow another 8years on top of that; so ten years of top-notch, silent, flexible operation..that also happens to game well with really low input lag. Sounds like you've got a winner within budget.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 07-01-2014, 09:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AV_Integrated's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA - Washington, DC
Posts: 3,499
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 339 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Junk, junk, junk! Nothing but junk I tell ya!

You are missing the point!

When is someone going to come out with a DECENT projector?

....

I think he missed the CRE thread.
ben38 and pajama sam like this.

AV Integrated - Theater, whole house audio, and technology installation in the Washington DC metro area.
AV_Integrated is offline  
Old 07-02-2014, 12:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
Junk, junk, junk! Nothing but junk I tell ya!

You are missing the point!

When is someone going to come out with a DECENT projector?
I suppose it's really the same point you and others have mentioned in part though..besides the silly comparison to 5" single-panel amoled (a $75-110 part all by itself, accounting for over half the devices construction cost).
Forgetting for a moment that current gen LED is bright enough for most projection rooms already, it is dumb that no company has basically tossed the innards of a pf80/85 into a 8350/8345 case and called it "good".
The parts (if possible to work together a hardy zoom/offset range with dlp) have already been sold as inexpensive units and proven both successful AND ..inexpensive. It would seem an easy choice for any company like Aaxa or infocus who doesn't even HAVE a top-end theater model. It isn't like it would steal the thunder from a higher model if one doesn't exist! Aaxa's "top model" currently is a $500 720p unit that lacks 3D..I'm pretty sure they could squeeze something like this in. Infocus doesn't even have an RGBRGB model right now, they could use a bit of theater to round out the line.

On a related note, I'll also take a pony. Screw gas, hay is cheaper. I don't have $3000 and need to start saving, somehow.

Last edited by Ftoast; 07-02-2014 at 12:25 AM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 07-02-2014, 11:29 AM
Member
 
PJC Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
Forgetting for a moment that current gen LED is bright enough for most projection rooms already...
It's not, though. It's bright enough for some people, some of the time, if they have excellent light control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
...it is dumb that no company has basically tossed the innards of a pf80/85 into a 8350/8345 case and called it "good"...
Like all other corporations, projector manufacturers love money. LOVE money. If it were this easy, it would already be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ftoast View Post
The parts (if possible to work together a hardy zoom/offset range with dlp)...
Have you ever noticed how LCD projectors tend to have more zoom/shift than DLP projectors? It's easier to do lens shift with LCD projectors. Please note that I'm not an engineer, but I've heard this over and over again from engineers, so I'm trusting it.

More generally:

The fact that there is not an inexpensive, high-quality, solid-state (lamp free) home theater projector means one of two things. Either:

1. Building one is harder than it looks

Or:

2. It's easy. However, there is a vast, industry-wide conspiracy to maintain the current lamp-based status quo at all costs, no matter what, in order to keep selling replacement lamps forever and ever and deprive poor suckers like you and me of our Eternity Projectors with Infinite Contrast. And despite the intense competition between projector vendors, not to mention the years-old fight between 3LCD and TI/DLP, not a single person has blabbed a single word in all these years.

I mean, believe the second one if you want to, I guess.
PJC Bill is offline  
Old 07-02-2014, 12:32 PM
Member
 
Hank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 13
My company recently got out of the projector biz. We invented short throw projection (called it Super Close Projection). We came out with the first mass marketed pocket projectors - had a brilliant unit powered with a ROKU stick. Every time I showed someone one of our pocket projectors, they asked where they could buy one. Market awareness was the problem and there isn't enough millions available to spend on advertising to make a large enough market "aware" of the product, so quality pocket projectors remained too low volume to make money. Large business projectors became a commodity, and sufferred margin erosion. Our material is in nearly every LCD TV and we now have QBEF film that will make an LCD look like OLED (ASUS just adopted this for their upcoming high end laptop). Our material is in high volume smart phones.
Why do I state all this - to brag? No, to tell the OP that I know what costs are in projection and smart phones. Your smart phone didn't cost $150 to make - it is being heavily subsidized by your cell carrier. Short throw projection requires a relatively huge aspherical lens, which is extremely difficult to manufacture - only a few lens manufactures can actually make them and they have to normally go through 3 or 4 tooling iterations to get them correct. I know the LED biz too - our pico (pocket) light engines used the latest and greatest LED's. One thing I didn't notice in this thread is that you must keep in mind that in the world of electronics, projectors as a whole are a small volume niche market. Comparing component costs with those of smart phones and notebook computers is very apples/oranges. I believe the major projector brands are working in their labs to design LED-based 1080p, high contrast, high color uniformity products and they probably have paper designs they could start manufacturing within months, but at a MSRP that their Marketers are tellling them is too high for any decent volume. The other major item is that the entire projector market is satisfied with affordable lamp-based projectors. Only a fraction of a percent of buyers, such as a few on this forum, are clamoring for LED. Them's the non-emotional facts, boys.
I don't want a pony, but a cheetah would be a cool pet.
shingles314 and reckless7 like this.

Last edited by Hank; 07-02-2014 at 12:37 PM.
Hank is offline  
Old 07-02-2014, 01:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Ftoast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,274
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 336 Post(s)
Liked: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJC Bill View Post
It's not, though. It's bright enough for some people, some of the time, if they have excellent light control.

Like all other corporations, projector manufacturers love money. LOVE money. If it were this easy, it would already be done.

Have you ever noticed how LCD projectors tend to have more zoom/shift than DLP projectors? It's easier to do lens shift with LCD projectors. Please note that I'm not an engineer, but I've heard this over and over again from engineers, so I'm trusting it.

More generally:

The fact that there is not an inexpensive, high-quality, solid-state (lamp free) home theater projector means one of two things. Either:

1. Building one is harder than it looks

Or:

2. It's easy. However, there is a vast, industry-wide conspiracy to maintain the current lamp-based status quo at all costs, no matter what, in order to keep selling replacement lamps forever and ever and deprive poor suckers like you and me of our Eternity Projectors with Infinite Contrast. And despite the intense competition between projector vendors, not to mention the years-old fight between 3LCD and TI/DLP, not a single person has blabbed a single word in all these years.

I mean, believe the second one if you want to, I guess.
I have yet to find a casual viewer complain of it being too dim with the use of a curtain or two (doesn't mean much, but it's not nothing). 110"-120" is a pretty common indoor size and curtains are cheap and rarely ruled-out by significant others. To each there own, but judging by the popularity of the easy/inexpensive lcdTV I'd have to guess there's a large market for cheap, easy, and "good enough".

More than the love of money I'd argue they simply make some very odd choices and are a little clumsy with change.
I've specifically named a couple companies that have nothing to lose from adding a slightly higher-performance hometheater oriented projector to their line.

I've seen a couple DLP models with fairly extreme zoom, but never much offset range..and that's why I questioned if it could be done at all. You WOULD think a system of offset/zoom lenses at the end of the line couldn't possibly care what technology preceded it..and that'd be a possible design to try.
If a DLP only company wanted to offer a more competitive model to gain more profit at the competition's expense, that'd be something to try..but, like I said, it would involve a bit of change and companies make some odd choices.

I feel like I'm being told that the w1070 with its combination of zoom/offset/accuracy/and $750-1000 couldn't possibly be done until now. Why not, just because that simple, obvious, and award winning combination wasn't thrown together just yet? The hd25 and any previous inexpensive iris-less RGB DLP could've been tossed into a more placement friendly chassis as soon as 1080 parts came down in price. It wouldn't have been stealing any more from their business line or iris'd high-end then than it is right now for Benq.

Some people say the w1070 is too bright and loud, but Optoma has never popped a different software set and RGBRGB colorwheel into a 131xe with its 190w lamp for a build-price difference and R&D cost of $0 ..does that mean it can't be done?
I'd say it's much more likely it's the natural slow response and odd choices of a large company.
A colorwheel swap and the resulting software difference doesn't even require a true separate overhead for a different model..it's parts they already have and software they already own and use.

Conspiracy, no. Slow, ignorant and generally silly, oh-my yes.

I'm not asking for the best glass in a $500 package. I'm wondering why there aren't slightly larger/quieter, 300-600lumen LED DLPs with similar zoom/offset options as the w1070 for $800-1200...at least by a company with no current theater model for it to leak sales from.

You can't seriously believe that it can't be done, can't be done inexpensively at a normal profit margin, or can't be done by a company with no theater models without stealing too many sales from their lights-on business segment.

Not that I'm siding completely with OP, but. ..I'm admittedly impatient. This isn't even FOR ME! I couldn't care less about ceiling-mount flexibility, I just want to see an LED option that makes more sense in a high mount.

I've also heard from manufacturers that they really don't like to change their case designs..so anything that doesn't fit or simply drop in, that's going to take a while. It's understandable..but tell me straight that you aren't disappointed in hearing it.

Last edited by Ftoast; 07-02-2014 at 01:16 PM.
Ftoast is online now  
Old 07-03-2014, 10:20 AM
Haw
Senior Member
 
Haw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 283
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Sony has actually developed a 4K Ultra Short Throw Laser projector and launching summer this year.

www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1410-sony-develop-an-ultra-short-throw-4k-laser-projector

www.sony.net/Products/4k-ultra-short-throw/
Haw is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 12:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haw View Post
Sony has actually developed a 4K Ultra Short Throw Laser projector and launching summer this year.

www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1410-sony-develop-an-ultra-short-throw-4k-laser-projector

www.sony.net/Products/4k-ultra-short-throw/
Not at the impossible price point the OP wants.
Nicktx27 is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 01:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haw View Post
Sony has actually developed a 4K Ultra Short Throw Laser projector and launching summer this year.

www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1410-sony-develop-an-ultra-short-throw-4k-laser-projector

www.sony.net/Products/4k-ultra-short-throw/
what's ironic is that such a design would actually be a lot more intrusive and difficult to place than the conventional projectors for me.


I've rather have the projector hidden behind me than occupying the entire front of my room. it is cool for the right application though!
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 07-03-2014, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haw View Post
Sony has actually developed a 4K Ultra Short Throw Laser projector and launching summer this year.

www.redsharknews.com/technology/item/1410-sony-develop-an-ultra-short-throw-4k-laser-projector

www.sony.net/Products/4k-ultra-short-throw/
Now see that's what I'm talking about. Someone is trying to make a decent projector.

Now all they have to do is;

1. Swap the laser light source to led to keep cost down until laser is slightly more mature.
2. Use a 1080p chip to keep component cost down.
3. Decrease the size of the chassis and weight to make it more manageable for ceiling mount.
4. Add wifi and wireless HDMI to reduce wiring.
5. Add an easy mounting plate so that the mounting is not intimidating for the typical buyer.
6. Mass produce it to reduce component cost.

No bulb, no fan noise, small footprint, good wife factor.

We need a paradigm shift in projector manufacturing. Small, cheap, no maintenance and good just like all the other electronic industries. Cell phones, laptops, etc.....
Bsims2719 is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 09:52 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlg View Post
So let's see what you want

Ultra short throw? It seems you want this due to fan noise, the Sony hw40es is literally 4 feet on top of my head and the thing is whisper quiet at 21db, so that issue is fixed

good optics? It has full 3d 1080p with LCoS technology with delivers an amazing image.

scanning laser with infinite contrast? no idea what that is, looked it up and looks stupid and outdated tech

1080p? yes and full 3d

at least 2000 lumens capable of 150 inch image? it's not 2000 lumens but game mode is 1714 lumens, this puppy will torch a 150 inch image so that won't be a worry either.

It even zooms and has lens shift.

You said you would pay "$3000" for such unit well when you're ready I'll sell ya mine for $3000

Only con is the "lamp replacement" but put it in low mode and youll be able to watch about 4~ hours a day for two years just fine.
It will lose half it's brightness after about 500 hours not to mention color shift not to mention it will never have the color depth of a good led. No matter how good the projector is a bulb is old technology.

What percentage of TV's sold today are leds? What percentage of laptops are led? What percentage of projectors are leds?
Bsims2719 is offline  
Old 07-03-2014, 10:09 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Bsims2719's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 461
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJC Bill View Post
It's not, though. It's bright enough for some people, some of the time, if they have excellent light control.



Like all other corporations, projector manufacturers love money. LOVE money. If it were this easy, it would already be done.



Have you ever noticed how LCD projectors tend to have more zoom/shift than DLP projectors? It's easier to do lens shift with LCD projectors. Please note that I'm not an engineer, but I've heard this over and over again from engineers, so I'm trusting it.

More generally:

The fact that there is not an inexpensive, high-quality, solid-state (lamp free) home theater projector means one of two things. Either:

1. Building one is harder than it looks

Or:

2. It's easy. However, there is a vast, industry-wide conspiracy to maintain the current lamp-based status quo at all costs, no matter what, in order to keep selling replacement lamps forever and ever and deprive poor suckers like you and me of our Eternity Projectors with Infinite Contrast. And despite the intense competition between projector vendors, not to mention the years-old fight between 3LCD and TI/DLP, not a single person has blabbed a single word in all these years.

I mean, believe the second one if you want to, I guess.
Please, please, please... I wish everyone on this thread would dispel the belief that just because the "industry" doesn't do it, it must be impossible or unattainable.

How long, how many decades, did GM, Ford and Chrysler make crap cars without any innovation before Toyota and Honda forced them to change.

I mean the iphone was introduced in 2007. Look at what cell phones are capable of today. If you told someone in 2005 what a cell phone can do today would they believe you?

All I'm saying is that the projector industry is crap. They need to innovate. They need a paradigm shift in value. A really big image for cheap.

The technology is there it's just that no one will take the lead. Again to my point, LG is the first one to step forward and truly innovate and they are not even a typical projector manufacturer. How stupid is that?
Bsims2719 is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 01:37 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 69
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
All I'm saying is that the projector industry is crap. They need to innovate. They need a paradigm shift in value. A really big image for cheap.
What you're ignoring is that this has been happening. Prices are dropping on everything... hell, you can get a 1080p projector for $650 now if you wanted. Even bulbs are dropping in price. LED is a relatively new technology in projectors (you can't compare their use in projectors to their use in other consumer products, the amount of light they need to consistently put out is much higher), and yet we've gone from 60 lumen 480p units to 1000 lumen 1080p units in only a few years. Lumen counts are rising, contrast ratios are improving, noise levels are dropping, and we've got more technology options now than ever before.

Could things be better? Sure they could. But we're clearly on our way there. To complain that we're not there yet is silly. It's not like all the progress made over the past few years is coming to a grinding halt any time soon.

And again, making things ultra-short-throw does not make a projector more user-friendly. It's absolutely brutal for showing imperfections in your wall or screen and can be much harder to get your ideal screen size from, and in that sense can be more limiting or difficult than a standard long-throw projector, which is why they're not terribly popular for home theaters in the first place. It's the kind of thing that sounds nice until you actually deal with it.

Which gets to the second point... a projector that's easier to ceiling mount is still going to be a niche product just by virtue of ceiling-mounting being a hell of a lot more difficult than putting a TV on a stand. People who rent or live in apartments sometimes aren't even allowed to put in ceiling mounts. As long as projectors are more work than TVs they will always be niche, and as long as they're niche there's a limit on how far you can mass-produce your way to savings.
fierce_gt and Ftoast like this.
sethsez is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 08:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nicktx27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,098
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 58 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
Please, please, please... I wish everyone on this thread would dispel the belief that just because the "industry" doesn't do it, it must be impossible or unattainable.

How long, how many decades, did GM, Ford and Chrysler make crap cars without any innovation before Toyota and Honda forced them to change.

I mean the iphone was introduced in 2007. Look at what cell phones are capable of today. If you told someone in 2005 what a cell phone can do today would they believe you?

All I'm saying is that the projector industry is crap. They need to innovate. They need a paradigm shift in value. A really big image for cheap.

The technology is there it's just that no one will take the lead. Again to my point, LG is the first one to step forward and truly innovate and they are not even a typical projector manufacturer. How stupid is that?
About as stupid as someone who thinks it's as easy as slapping some parts from a bin together. Seriously man, you need to take an Econ 101 course.
kevinlg likes this.
Nicktx27 is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 11:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
I just find it funny because I think of all the CE divisions, projectors are near the top for the most change, innovation, and value increase in the last 5yrs.


I mean TV's have actually gotten worse, nothing has changed with speakers or amps, processors are only keeping up with new formats... the difference I've seen with projectors is that 3k 5yrs ago would get you an entry level 1080p that MIGHT match LCD tv contrast and picture quality. today 3k gets you a nice mid-range 1080p projector that matches the best plasma on the market for picture quality.


imo, that's a HUGE change. and the fact that more than 1% of the population is even considering a projector, now they there are led models, and short throw models, and GOOD looking ones for under 800bux, it's not even that 'special' to have a projector anymore. when I got my first, my friends thought I was nuts, and weird. now they all want one of their own. and hey, if we go back even further, it was only about 15yrs ago when I thought owning a front projector was a pipe dream because I didn't have the 20k to spend on a projector, or the 100k to spend on renovating the room so that I could actually use one. to have gone from that to a point where you can buy a 1080p projector small enough to be portable and just point it at a wall and go, is nothing short of amazing to me.


so when I hear all these ppl complaining about how stagnant the projector market is, and why they haven't made the perfect projector yet, I honestly can't even imagine what led to that complaint. my only explanation is they never looked at projectors until 5months ago, and they assume it's been this way forever(but it hasn't)
PJC Bill and sethsez like this.
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 07-04-2014, 11:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
It will lose half it's brightness after about 500 hours not to mention color shift not to mention it will never have the color depth of a good led. No matter how good the projector is a bulb is old technology.

What percentage of TV's sold today are leds? What percentage of laptops are led? What percentage of projectors are leds?
you realize there's virtually no correlation between LED tv and LED projectors right?
fierce_gt is online now  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:07 PM
Member
 
kevinlg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 137
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post
It will lose half it's brightness after about 500 hours not to mention color shift not to mention it will never have the color depth of a good led. No matter how good the projector is a bulb is old technology.

What percentage of TV's sold today are leds? What percentage of laptops are led? What percentage of projectors are leds?
No it will not, what is up with you and LED? You're so stuck on that tech that you're most likely one of those guys that love their tv/projector in torch mode.

LED projectors are crap, the bulb lasts long but the colors are awful and don't even get me started on blacks! Go buy a razor lit LED tv and be happy with your crap technology, while us projector owners enjoy our natural and great colours that are easy on the eyes.
kevinlg is offline  
Old 07-04-2014, 09:14 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fierce_gt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,611
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlg View Post
No it will not, what is up with you and LED? You're so stuck on that tech that you're most likely one of those guys that love their tv/projector in torch mode.

LED projectors are crap, the bulb lasts long but the colors are awful and don't even get me started on blacks! Go buy a razor lit LED tv and be happy with your crap technology, while us projector owners enjoy our natural and great colours that are easy on the eyes.
well, there are some advantages to LED projectors that use RGB led's. it's very different from the crappy edgelit LED TV's, and from what I've heard the LED projectors(the good ones) appear to have more saturated and accurate colors. at the very least, they are capable of matching rec709 standards. and they will maintain brightness and have virtually no color drift over time. again, there's really no correlation between LED TV's and LED projectors.


the blacks though, seem to be more limited by DLP technology, as I don't believe any LCOS models have used LED lighting yet. still, I'd take an LED DLP with dynamic dimming over a bulb based DLP with a dynamic iris. I just don't see the point is spending $1000's more for an LED model just to save a few hundred on bulbs. when the LED models are closer in price to their comparable bulb based competition, that's when LED will make a whole lot of sense. I'm hoping we're not too far off. there's been HUGE advancements in LED projectors in just the past 2yrs.


maybe we'll even be lucky enough to see an LED LCOS projector with the same great blacks and contrast we've come to expect from one.
fierce_gt is online now  
 
Gear in this thread
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off